Hull Trains 180s

[_toommm_]

Let's hope that the weekend cold spell doesn't produce any more of the same snow!

It’s apparently going to snow in Sheffield on Sunday. Let’s hope the snow storm doesn’t extend out to Doncaster

 

[alexl92]

How long will they survive if they are constantly cancelling trains because of a shortage of units? Surely the cost will come back to bite them soon?

 

[rustbucket]

Another HT 180 failed at Grantham this afternoon on what I am told was it's first service back since repair.

Yup - afraid so - service was a late addition for today having previously been posted as cancelled

Back down to one working unit again tomorrow according to the current emergency timetable

 

[rustbucket]

How long will they survive if they are constantly cancelling trains because of a shortage of units? Surely the cost will come back to bite them soon?

Rumours abound of a £2m backlog of maintenance required that hasn't been done as they run the fleet into the ground - that being said they are owned by First Group so should be financially stable enough to ride out the storm

 

[TUC]

Given their reliability over the last few months I'm not sure that maintained is the right word!

If it's the move to Crofton that has caused this I'm surprised First/HT are letting it persist for so long rather than pursing contractual/legal routes to have got it sortrd by now.

 

[rustbucket]

To be fair to Crofton they have just picked the units up at the wrong time - they were still under the care of Old Oak last summer and at least 2 out of 4 were running around with engines isolated and the on board crew describing the fleet as 'on it's last legs'

 

[TUC]

It must give scope for some intriguing confusion at Kings Cross with First running trains in GC livery and GC running trains in First livery!

 

[Clarence Yard]

Rumours abound of a £2m backlog of maintenance required that hasn't been done as they run the fleet into the ground - that being said they are owned by First Group so should be financially stable enough to ride out the storm

That is wibble. The problem is not a backlog of maintenance or the cost of maintenance - it is availability of spares, especially (but not only) the major components. This problem would still have occurred if the units were maintained at the Oak.

There are no financial restrictions on Hull Trains maintenance activities.

 

[TUC]

That is wibble. The problem is not a backlog of maintenance or the cost of maintenance - it is availability of spares, especially (but not only) the major components. This problem would still have occurred if the units were maintained at the Oak.
.

It does seem an odd coincidence though that issues with spares coincided with the change in maintainance arrangements. One does wonder whether there were some creative solutions being used under the old arrangements that haven't been replicated.

 

[F Great Eastern]

Is one back in action?

There was a 10:30 Hull to London Kings Cross but only to Doncaster that was re-instated at short notice earlier but nothing else additional to run apart from the other full diagram.

 

[Clarence Yard]

It does seem an odd coincidence though that issues with spares coincided with the change in maintainance arrangements. One does wonder whether there were some creative solutions being used under the old arrangements that haven't been replicated.

No. Supply issues for several types of UK rolling stock are starting to concern operators. It appears that we are starting to see the time taken for component supply lengthening and some suppliers of quite minor components are starting to increase their minimum re-order quantities. This is impacting both on the supply of new components as well as component repairs.

The smaller the fleet, the bigger the potential impact and that is all before you have a unit out for a major incident. The component supply issue with 180 units was becoming an issue even before the fleet transferred from the Oak.

 

[rustbucket]

Is one back in action?

There was a 10:30 Hull to London Kings Cross but only to Doncaster that was re-instated at short notice earlier but nothing else additional to run apart from the other full diagram.

Ran ECS back to Hull afterwards - not really a taxing run to Doncaster and back given the slow line speeds

I see they've now put the 15.12 back in as far as Doncaster - at a guess the unit is probably banned from the ECML south of Doncaster as it is only running on 3 engines not 5 and it can't reach 125mph (which it can if it has at least 4)

 

[F Great Eastern]

Currently looking like this.

Note this information is more recent than the information on the Hull Trains Site.

This Afternoon/Evening
15.12 Hull - London King's Cross runs to Doncaster
17.10 Hull - London King's Cross starts at Doncaster
19.11 Hull - London King's Cross runs to Doncaster

15.48 London King's Cross - Hull terminates at Doncaster
18.50 London King's Cross - Beverley runs is cancelled
20.30 London King's Cross - Hull runs as normal

Thursday
05.58 Beverley - London King's Cross runs as normal
08.23 Hull - London King's Cross is cancelled
10.30 Hull - London King's Cross is cancelled
12.33 Hull - London King's Cross runs as normal
15.12 Hull - London King's Cross is cancelled
17.10 Hull - London King's Cross starts at Doncaster
19.11 Hull - London King's Cross is cancelled

07.22 London King's Cross - Hull is cancelled
09.48 London King's Cross - Hull runs as normal
11.48 London King's Cross - Hull runs is cancelled
13.48 London King's Cross - Hull is cancelled
15.48 London King's Cross - Hull terminates at Doncaster
18.50 London King's Cross - Beverley is cancelled
20.30 London King's Cross - Hull runs as normal

I assume the set running around on three engines is going to have more work done Thursday?

 

[MontyP]

There were a couple of cancellations on Grand Central to/from Bradford today as well (1A63/1D73) - have GC got problems with their 180s as well?

 

[rustbucket]

There were a couple of cancellations on Grand Central to/from Bradford today as well (1A63/1D73) - have GC got problems with their 180s as well?

One got a bit hot and flustered at Mirfield (I think it was) last night and set off its on board fire extinguishers - then left after a bit of a delay with only 2 engines still alive

 

[tgrb]

Bombardier being slightly brave on twitter - I'd probably be not shouting about the 180s atm..... (see pic)

 

[ainsworth74]

Bombardier being slightly brave on twitter - I'd probably be not shouting about the 180s atm..... (see pic)

I mean, I think "maintain" is probably a strong word

 

[rustbucket]

2 out of 3 full diagrams running tomorrow

 

[peaks222]

Two units in service today

 

[BestWestern]

No. Supply issues for several types of UK rolling stock are starting to concern operators. It appears that we are starting to see the time taken for component supply lengthening and some suppliers of quite minor components are starting to increase their minimum re-order quantities. This is impacting both on the supply of new components as well as component repairs.

The smaller the fleet, the bigger the potential impact and that is all before you have a unit out for a major incident. The component supply issue with 180 units was becoming an issue even before the fleet transferred from the Oak.

Yet ATW appear to be managing to maintain a significantly larger fleet of very similar 175s without most of them routinely falling over...

 

[twpsaesneg]

Yet ATW appear to be managing to maintain a significantly larger fleet of very similar 175s without most of them routinely falling over...

But the 180's have a different engine and transmission. Probably bogies too although I'm not 100% sure on that.

And the duty cycle for a 175 vs 180 is somewhat different, they aren't carrying out sustained running greater than 100mph.

With a larger fleet it is more cost efficient to get components re manufactured for you that are obsolete, as the minimum order quantity doesn't hit you in the pocket so much. If your fleet of 27 units needs a widget costing £1000 to make with a 50 quantity minimum order, it costs you £1852 per widget in real terms. If your fleet size is now 14 it goes up to £3571, because you can't make use of the spare widgets you have had to have made, especially if they are not a consumable item.

 

[humbersidejim]

But the 180's have a different engine and transmission. Probably bogies too although I'm not 100% sure on that.

And the duty cycle for a 175 vs 180 is somewhat different, they aren't carrying out sustained running greater than 100mph.

With a larger fleet it is more cost efficient to get components re manufactured for you that are obsolete, as the minimum order quantity doesn't hit you in the pocket so much. If your fleet of 27 units needs a widget costing £1000 to make with a 50 quantity minimum order, it costs you £1852 per widget in real terms. If your fleet size is now 14 it goes up to £3571, because you can't make use of the spare widgets you have had to have made, especially if they are not a consumable item.

You make a very strong argument in favour of standard fleets across the railway - especially when the fleet reaches mid life and part availability may become more difficult.

This really throws the long term viability of ordering bespoke microfleets (I'm looking at you, tpe), into question, assuming the stock contains any 'unique' components.

One would hope that by leasing 800 series stock, HT will enjoy much higher levels of reliability in the long term.

 

[rustbucket]

Fingers crossed on the reliability - i've just booked two more trips with them!

 

[Non Multi]

Fingers crossed on the reliability - i've just booked two more trips with them!

I'm also watching this thread with interest, I'll soon be booking tickets for a trip in the summer and the combined HT+TPE fare is the cheapest available option.

 

[BestWestern]

1With a larger fleet it is more cost efficient to get components re manufactured for you that are obsolete, as the minimum order quantity doesn't hit you in the pocket so much. If your fleet of 27 units needs a widget costing £1000 to make with a 50 quantity minimum order, it costs you £1852 per widget in real terms. If your fleet size is now 14 it goes up to £3571, because you can't make use of the spare widgets you have had to have made, especially if they are not a consumable item.

Agreed, but what's the cost of cancelling most of your services every day?! There are many fleets of obsolete rolling stock across the network, for which getting a hold of spares is a nightmare. However, if parts are required then they're required, and that's all there is to it. In this particular context, unless withdrawal and replacement with something else are viable options, the cost really doesn't - or shouldn't - matter.

 

[twpsaesneg]

Agreed, but what's the cost of cancelling most of your services every day?! There are many fleets of obsolete rolling stock across the network, for which getting a hold of spares is a nightmare. However, if parts are required then they're required, and that's all there is to it. In this particular context, unless withdrawal and replacement with something else are viable options, the cost really doesn't - or shouldn't - matter.

Absolutely - and I must state that I have no knowledge of the specifics in the case of these units. But if something HAS gone tech on the unit which isn't what you'd expect to be a normally replaceable maintenance item, or is so rare you have only one in stock which has already been used on another unit, you're snookered no matter how much money you throw at it. "Just-In-Time" processes mean there just aren't things kept in warehouses waiting for use any more.

The point I was aiming for was that its a lot cheaper and therefore easier to keep a larger fleet on the rails, because the bean counters would be more willing to countenance a minimum order on a cost that can be spread per unit more easily.

My main area of expertise is OLE infrastructure, and I can state for certain that this is certainly the case for our obsolete parts - the spares get shared more and more thinly between depots until there's an overwhelming need to put that order in. The question is if you can make what is left last until the obsolete kit gets replaced.

 

[F Great Eastern]

They're going to run an amended timetable from 24th March, so I guess they may move some departures around to try and operate more services with two sets.

They don't expect a third set back before 28th it seems.

 

[cj_1985]

I can only hope that they manage to get over this 'hump'.
They made the right decision in ordering more than just 4x 802s.

 

[westv]

There now appears to be a spoof twitter feed - nohelltrains.
Made me chuckle.

 

[No Fault Found]

But the 180's have a different engine and transmission. Probably bogies too although I'm not 100% sure on that.

And the duty cycle for a 175 vs 180 is somewhat different, they aren't carrying out sustained running greater than 100mph.

With a larger fleet it is more cost efficient to get components re manufactured for you that are obsolete, as the minimum order quantity doesn't hit you in the pocket so much. If your fleet of 27 units needs a widget costing £1000 to make with a 50 quantity minimum order, it costs you £1852 per widget in real terms. If your fleet size is now 14 it goes up to £3571, because you can't make use of the spare widgets you have had to have made, especially if they are not a consumable item.

In their last 12 months at OOC, a unit was NEVER stopped awaiting a major component (engine, transmission, cooler group or wheelset) The only time there was one stood down awaiting a major component was for the bogie overhaul they went through. I believe the problem to be less of a spares availability but more contractual issues with acquiring said parts or it is down to the maintenance and skills / knowledge lost.