Hundreds of railway ticket offices could be closed

[142blue]

I still see a need for them, there is a degree of personal interaction that people like and enjoy. Also much of my role is after sales, problem solving, issues with online bookings as well as immediate and future sales.

Do I see us trading for 16 hours a day as present. Absolutely not

 

[Bletchleyite]

I still see a need for them, there is a degree of personal interaction that people like and enjoy.

The purpose of the railway is to transport people, not have a chat with them.

Also much of my role is after sales, problem solving, issues with online bookings as well as immediate and future sales.

Sounds like you're one of the better ones. Hopefully you'll find a role where you can continue to add value to the railway.

Do I see us trading for 16 hours a day as present. Absolutely not

Merseyrail is certainly the most ridiculous, with staffing for the full period of service and selling nothing a TVM can't. I get the personal safety argument, but that'd be better fulfilled by having security staff on patrol and dealing with any issues directly rather than being hidden behind glass.

 

[Class800]

No need to scan any pass any more than a Railcard or proof of being a child. It would be verified when the ticket was checked.

Other than priv, what kind of concession is presently not available via TVMs?

Group tickets sometimes, plus RTVs

 

[Bletchleyite]

Group tickets sometimes

There are TVMs that do GroupSave, though I can't recall which TOC. It is also sold online/from telesales.

plus RTVs

Need to be abolished in favour of alternatives such as actual refunds, discount codes for use online and free tickets like Northern issue.

Having said that, supermarket self-checkouts accept vouchers, you just scan the barcode. As TVMs are online these days (required for verifying card transactions), there seems no reason a discount code couldn't be entered into a TVM and applied.

 

[Class800]

There are TVMs that do GroupSave, though I can't recall which TOC. It is also sold online/from telesales.



Need to be abolished in favour of alternatives such as actual refunds, discount codes for use online and free tickets like Northern issue.

Having said that, supermarket self-checkouts accept vouchers, you just scan the barcode. As TVMs are online these days (required for verifying card transactions), there seems no reason a discount code couldn't be entered into a TVM and applied.

Some TVMs do group save, some don't.

I would agree totally with abolishing RTVs in favour of e-vouchers, but there's been no progress made - I did suggest it to a TOC once after a real PITA experience with RTVs

 

[RailWonderer]

No, staff at my station ticket office are friendly and many passengers older than 23 use them to buy tickets when they are confused by peak, off peak, travelcard zones etc. and for through tickets to some places. At certain smaller stations they are appreciated and well used.

 

[Failed Unit]

There are TVMs that do GroupSave, though I can't recall which TOC. It is also sold online/from telesales.



Need to be abolished in favour of alternatives such as actual refunds, discount codes for use online and free tickets like Northern issue.

Having said that, supermarket self-checkouts accept vouchers, you just scan the barcode. As TVMs are online these days (required for verifying card transactions), there seems no reason a discount code couldn't be entered into a TVM and applied.

GTRs do, in fact if you ask for ticket(s) where a group save is cheaper it even suggests it for you with a Y / N question something like "It appears this ticket will save you x" but of course you can decline this if you are not really always travelling together.

 

[Philip]

To say they are totally not needed at all is wrong; it isn't quite so black and white. A lot of passengers still come to ticket offices for help with ticket queries/problems and more general railway disruption - this is where they come into their own compared with any website or telephone service, nothing like having someone there on site to help out rather than remotely. Also a lot of Asian people still use them for basic ticket purchasing reasons.

That said, clearly a lot of them aren't paying their way and with savings having to be made across the railway, it's hard to justify not closing some of them. I just wonder what criteria they might use as to which ones stay open, which ones close with no staff kept on and which ones close or have reduced shifts/desks but with the staff redeployed to a slightly different role on the station.

 

[jkkne]

To say they are totally not needed at all is wrong; it isn't quite so black and white. A lot of passengers still come to ticket offices for help with ticket queries/problems and more general railway disruption - this is where they come into their own compared with any website or telephone service, nothing like having someone there on site to help out rather than remotely. Also a lot of Asian people still use them for basic ticket purchasing reasons.

That said, clearly a lot of them aren't paying their way and with savings having to be made across the railway, it's hard to justify not closing some of them. I just wonder what criteria they might use as to which ones stay open, which ones close with no staff kept on and which ones close or have reduced shifts/desks but with the staff redeployed to a slightly different role on the station.

Surely the majority of that work could transfer to existing information points or Customer Assistants based on platforms (with a TVM as required)

Pre-Covid some of them would have been in prime retail space for the likes of Greggs etc to move into but not so sure that's the case these days (aside weekends)

 

[43066]

Of course. The method of dealing with the opposition is what I think could 'make or break'. If someone threatens to make you redundant and you respond by not working, that only proves the point. Far better to make yourself indispensable to prove that the employer really needs to keep you.

There’s a balance to be struck, certainly. This is where the unions can hopefully exert a positive influence and work with management to bring about the best possible outcome, but of course that relies on positive engagement from both sides.

Related thought: a real human can 'up sell' better than a TVM can. Maybe that's somewhere that effort could be put (if not already; opportunities may be limited).

Indeed. A model similar to LU where roving staff are deployed to field queries, assist with TVM operation etc. might work well. There’s arguably much more of a case for this on national rail than LU due to the complexity of ticketing.

 

[Watershed]

Clearly there are a number of ticket offices, particularly at quieter suburban stations, where it serves little useful purpose for someone to sit around behind a pane of glass, waiting for Godot! Sadly, but realistically, there is only one direction for such ticket offices - closure or very limited opening hours. Staff working at such ticket offices are probably best served being offered voluntary redundancy or else reallocation to other roles in the industry.

However there are plenty more stations where a staff presence is justified, but again having someone stuck behind a window is not very efficient. Virgin Trains (West Coast) went in this direction a few years ago when they rolled out their new Ticket Issuing System (TIS), Avocet, which could be used on a tablet so as to allow staff to wonder around near the ticket machines, helping people with any complex queries. Not much seemed to become of this, and there are still ordinary ticket offices at all their stations. But this is the direction in which I would see the staff presence at larger/busier stations heading - having staff moved to multi-purpose roles, where they can undertake "ticket selling assistance", dispatch, keeping stations in good order and perhaps occasionally assisting with revenue blocks as well.

The threats of balloting from the unions are not particularly helpful, and in my view they would serve their members better by trying to ensure the best possible outcome of any changes, including a guarantee of no compulsory redundancies (which, given that the railway is still recruiting left right and centre, should not be too onerous).

 

[patrick.hearn3]

Sweden closed the last of theirs in 2021 https://www.businesstraveller.com/b...onal-rail-operator-closes-all-ticket-offices/

Sweden’s national rail operator SJ has closed the last of its ticket offices.

Those outside the big cities were closed some time ago. And from March 1 ticket offices at Stockholm, Gothenburg and Malmo were also shuttered, reports Railway Gazette (registration required to read the article).

 

[Philip]

Surely the majority of that work could transfer to existing information points or Customer Assistants based on platforms (with a TVM as required)

Pre-Covid some of them would have been in prime retail space for the likes of Greggs etc to move into but not so sure that's the case these days (aside weekends)

Aside from major Network Rail stations, which stations have existing customer information points - and how do you know that these would the level of knowledge about railway ticketing that (most) booking office staff have? Dispatchers and customer assistants generally don't offer ticket advice; rather they help with things like mobility assistance, station directions, platform and train time advice.

 

[Backroom_boy]

I doubt many Londoners have actually realised the TFL ticket offices have actually closed; we are mainly oyster/tap PAYG users.

If GBR first cracks on with the ticket simplification, have a similar oyster/payg system for the metro areas, get TVMs to retail all the simplified ticket range, there would be a similar low key response from the public if the TOC offices shut.

 

[greyman42]

Even at Leeds which is a major station, i very rarely see more than 5 people queuing for the ticket office there. I suspect at many smaller stations if there are offices, they are mostly only open in the morning peak.

My station is York and the ticket office always seems busy when i use it, and there are at least three desks open to cater for demand.
I make a point of arriving at the station with plenty of spare time as there are nearly always queues.

 

[A0wen]

It's madness ... TfL did it and it causes issues with Tourists and the older generation who want a ticket.

TFL kept the central London ones open precisely because of tourists - but there aren't exactly tons of tourists heading through Ruislip or Roding Valley or Canons Park.

The "older generation" in London already have their freedom pass https://tfl.gov.uk/fares/free-and-discounted-travel/freedom-pass which is valid on buses and underground so the reality is the number "affected" is actually vanishingly small. Most of the "older generation" travelling into London from outside will have done so using Travelcards or tickets with London Terminals + Zone 1 or similar.

 

[yoyothehobo]

My station is York and the ticket office always seems busy when i use it, and there are at least three desks open to cater for demand.
I make a point of arriving at the station with plenty of spare time as there are nearly always queues.

Maybe its because its more touristy than Leeds? Also at Leeds there is a bunch of about 10 TVMs opposite the ticket office whereas York has fewer.

I certainly wouldnt advocate for their removal at stations like York or any Network Rail managed station to be honest as they are generally large enough to be needed but i daresay there are many across the country that are barely worthwhile.

 

[adrock1976]

No need to scan any pass any more than a Railcard or proof of being a child. It would be verified when the ticket was checked.

Other than priv, what kind of concession is presently not available via TVMs?

The Strathclyde concession fares are not on the TVMs at all.

 

[Grumpy]

And it'd be better handled with a clear poster/leaflet aimed at explaining the system to tourists and in multiple languages than a conversation in broken English you don't quite understand, in any case.

And we seem to keep identifying these tourists who don't research before their trip, don't own a smartphone and have only cash* - who are those people? There are probably none at all who don't travel on package holidays where all that is sorted out for them. If you're a clued up traveller, you do your research. If you're not and don't wish to be, you usually go for a package trip.

* Russians and perhaps Ukrainian refugees excepted at present. The latter should be allowed free travel anyway. The former, well...

With regard to the question "who are these people?" an hour standing by the TVM's at Malaga airport railway station would probably show you at least a thousand. Queueing outside the building in the wind because of the length of the queues. The latter as a result of prospective passengers' unfamiliarity with the system-strange language, strange questions etc. No booking office but some staff on site who sometimes stand by the machines to help but not enough of them. And more often than not they're hiding in their little room .

 

[Peter0124]

The Strathclyde concession fares are not on the TVMs at all.

Yes, which is why it is absurd to rely on Ticket Offices / On-train staff and end up having to queue at the barriers at the end of the journey if nobody turns up

Either a scan of the pass on the TVM, Or as @Bletchleyite says, checking the pass onboard would be better. It would also be good to have them sold (with proof of eligibility) on the Scotrail app aswell.

 

[43066]

To say they are totally not needed at all is wrong; it isn't quite so black and white. A lot of passengers still come to ticket offices for help with ticket queries/problems and more general railway disruption - this is where they come into their own compared with any website or telephone service, nothing like having someone there on site to help out rather than remotely. Also a lot of Asian people still use them for basic ticket purchasing reasons.

I suppose the reality is that such queries can generally be better answered by a visible and accessible member of staff than they can by someone behind a screen. I’m not sure why Asian people in particular would be more likely to use them - the elderly and those who speak little English perhaps. But again those groups would be better served by someone immediately accessible rather than behind a screen.

That said, clearly a lot of them aren't paying their way and with savings having to be made across the railway, it's hard to justify not closing some of them. I just wonder what criteria they might use as to which ones stay open, which ones close with no staff kept on and which ones close or have reduced shifts/desks but with the staff redeployed to a slightly different role on the station.

The London ones are inevitably going to be harder to justify. My local suburban London station is a case in point - it has a fair bit of foot fall (circa. 3.3m per year pre Covid) but the vast majority of passengers use contactless, oyster or season tickets. There simply aren’t going to be many foreign tourists wandering around, nor occasional travellers who are embarking on complex long distance itineraries, who are two of the groups most likely to need help.

I’m an occasional user of the office myself to buy privs but often find the “position closed” curtain is down during normal business hours, to the point where I can’t rely on it and usually now just visit the ticket office at work (a London terminal).

But this is the direction in which I would see the staff presence at larger/busier stations heading - having staff moved to multi-purpose roles, where they can undertake "ticket selling assistance", dispatch, keeping stations in good order and perhaps occasionally assisting with revenue blocks as well.

Generally agreed, albeit the “multipurpose” model might work less well if combined with dispatch duties due to the distraction risk, and the fact that customers buying tickets are often some way from the platforms. It’s perhaps a more logical extension of gateline work.

 

[Philip]

I suppose the reality is that such queries can generally be better answered by a visible and accessible member of staff than they can by someone behind a screen. I’m not sure why Asian people in particular would be more likely to use them - the elderly and those who speak little English perhaps. But again those groups would be better served by someone immediately accessible rather than behind a screen.

From experience over the last year the majority of the people coming to the ticket office are Asian...I'd say probably around 60-70% of the typical approx 500 or so passengers who buy tickets from this particular ticket office each day.

 

[43066]

From experience over the last year the majority of the people coming to the ticket office are Asian...I'd say probably around 60-70% of the typical approx 500 or so passengers who buy tickets from this particular ticket office each day.

Presumably that’s down to local demographics?

 

[philjo]

Other than priv, what kind of concession is presently not available via TVMs?

The Hertfordshire and Bedfordshire half fare off-peak tickets for senior citizens can only be purchased at ticket offices. They are not available at TVMs or online. This discount is for holders of the senior bus pass.
The tickets also are rejected by the barriers.
https://www.nationalrail.co.uk/times_fares/pr204da7c35ce741010e8b0da7e5a22e.aspx

 

[03_179]

Are day rangers, Rail rovers all available ?

 

[Bletchleyite]

Are day rangers, Rail rovers all available ?

As niche leisure products it would to
me not be unreasonable to sell these online and via telesales only.

 

[Geeves]

Certainly in regards to strikes the RMT (some are still in TSSA) have an issue as the quest for subs mean they now represent the booking office and the hired contractors, who would likely be ordered to man the ticket machines while the regular staff are outside. There's no way a strike would work now.

 

[JonathanH]

As niche leisure products it would to
me not be unreasonable to sell these online and via telesales only.

...or simply abolish them on the grounds of simplification? The constant clamour is for simplification of rail fares.

 

[RJ]

When I'm a tourist I prefer TVMs anyway, much easier to press the English button than try to have a conversation with someone in broken English.

I do too but it's not always easy. I went to Shanghai in 2019 and after getting my bearings out of the airport, went down to the Pudong metro. Had already researched the travelcard style ticket I needed and went to a TVM to buy it, only to be bombarded with people taking photographs of me, including staff who were doing so for "promotional" purposes. Although I was getting on fine with using the machine, I was ushered to the ticket window (where yet more photographs were taken) where the seller didn't have a clue what I was asking for despite pointing to pictures of the product that was on posters. Very strange experience.

 

[AlastairFraser]

...or simply abolish them on the grounds of simplification? The constant clamour is for simplification of rail fares.

Bad idea, bus companies like Stagecoach use similar Rover type tickets to attract masses to day trip travel in rural areas. For day trips where people might want to travel up and down lines to numerous points, which is quite common, the traffic would be lost to bus/walk/car as the system of individual tickets would be way too much bother to pay the premium for railway travel.
It's not hard to put Rovers/Rangers on TVMs at all, just an additional button.