Hypothetic- Tickets booked online for collection, machine out of service.

[sunday]

Just a quick question with regards to a situation I witnessed recently, suppose you booked an advance long distance single to collect from the machine at a station. They were at the station with 15 minutes to spare but the machine was out of service and the ticket office closed. The help point on the wall has not worked for several months.

The passenger was elderly and obviously distressed and unsure of what to do. Had she got on the train would she have been able to collect her ticket? What would be the correct course of action in this situation?

 

[AlterEgo]

They would have to purchase new tickets I'm afraid, and claim a refund of the originals from the point of purchase.

 

[yorkie]

They would have to purchase new tickets I'm afraid, and claim a refund of the originals from the point of purchase.

Claim a refund of the replacement tickets I would have thought!!!

Whether I'd get on the train without a ticket and explained, or got a replacement and claimed for refund, would depend on various factors.

It is a complex issue though and it would be preferable to know the full facts before commenting.

I am not prepared to comment on this case as it would be too many "ifs" and I'd be there forever.

What I will say is that I always* use East Coast to book tickets, their helpline is good, my nearest major station is operated by East Coast, they have plenty of machines (including some outside the ticket office available 24/7) and their ticket office has decent opening hours and the staff are well trained. Therefore I am fortunate in that I don't generally experience problems. However those that do, I am willing to help, if I can ascertain the full facts.

* OK not quite always if there's a special offer.

 

[sunday]

They would have to purchase new tickets I'm afraid, and claim a refund of the originals from the point of purchase.

Would they only be able to refund the originals or could they get the cost of the new tickets refunded if they provide proof they travelled on the correct train? Seems very unfair and weighted heavily in the TOCs favour.

 

[SS4]

I thought they could use their booking reference. I seem to remember Virgin had signs up once at BHM when the ticket machines were out of order (routine maintenance since it would be unusual for 6 to be broke at once) and saying that you could use your reference number

I should imagine that you'd get a refund on the purchased tickets since pre-booked are likely to be advance and therefore much cheaper than the walk on fare. Charging the walk-on fare would be financially punishing the customer for something out of their control

 

[yorkie]

I thought they could use their booking reference. I seem to remember Virgin had signs up once at BHM when the ticket machines were out of order (routine maintenance since it would be unusual for 6 to be broke at once) and saying that you could use your reference number

That is what I would expect to happen.

 

[MikeWh]

Just a quick question with regards to a situation I witnessed recently, suppose you booked an advance long distance single to collect from the machine at a station. They were at the station with 15 minutes to spare but the machine was out of service and the ticket office closed. The help point on the wall has not worked for several months.

The passenger was elderly and obviously distressed and unsure of what to do. Had she got on the train would she have been able to collect her ticket? What would be the correct course of action in this situation?

They would have to purchase new tickets I'm afraid, and claim a refund of the originals from the point of purchase.

Well with no ticket machine or ticket office you obviously can't buy before boarding. The correct course of action depends on the detail of the journey. If it was one train then you'd have to buy again on board and claim a refund later. If it was a connecting train then you might get away with just buying to the change station where hopefully the ticket machine might be working. Indeed if the connecting train was DOO or the guard didn't get to you, it might be possible to be escorted to the machine to get the ticket without going through the palava of a new ticket and refund.

 

[yorkie]

Well with no ticket machine or ticket office you obviously can't buy before boarding.

True, if that was the situation, but it's possible there was a bog-standard ticket machine not linked to the TOD system on the platform, however whether that would qualify as opportunity to buy before boarding may be debatable. And whether there is a requirement to buy before boarding if you have a problem such as this and no staff are available to advise, is also debatable and I would say highly questionable.

The correct course of action depends on the detail of the journey. If it was one train then you'd have to buy again on board and claim a refund later. If it was a connecting train then you might get away with just buying to the change station where hopefully the ticket machine might be working. Indeed if the connecting train was DOO or the guard didn't get to you, it might be possible to be escorted to the machine to get the ticket without going through the palava of a new ticket and refund.

Indeed, I was thinking along those lines.

Plus I think it's easier if you buy from the same TOC that you start your journey from. For a start they can't use the "It's not us, it's another company" excuse (that really is pathetic but I do hear it).

Arguably you could not have any cash and the card may not necessarily have credit on it, so you could get a UPFN. This would in some ways be easier to not pay on the basis that the TOC would be pursuing you, and in the event of a dispute resulting in a stalemate situation you would not pay. However a UPFN may be harder to contest if the issuing TOC was not the same TOC that you couldn't collect from and/or the TOC that you booked with. Not that it should change the legal or moral position in my opinion.

Hence why I generally book with EC, it's their website, their machines, their staff, and usually their trains I am using. Plus, they're good at rectifying problems unlike certain others e.g. the awful anti-customer EMT, SWT etc.

As is often the case, we don't know the facts, and someone comes along with a statement that is, shall I say, unlikely to apply, we then have several posts debating why their uninformed basic statement needs to be re-examined, depending on the circumstances. I know I said I didn't want to comment without knowing the facts, but once poor advise is given out and a debate ensues, I feel compelled to!

 

[reb0118]

Scotrail policy is as follows. 1) If the passenger has no ticket then they must purchase one regardless of the reason for not having one. 2) Depending on the reason for not originally having one they may claim a refund on the ticket bought. 3) If the lack of ticket was due to a TVM failure then you would get a full refund on the ticket bought on the train with no admin fee upon the issue of your pre booked ticket at a Scotrail booking office.

 

[sunday]

Claim a refund of the replacement tickets I would have thought!!!

Whether I'd get on the train without a ticket and explained, or got a replacement and claimed for refund, would depend on various factors.

It is a complex issue though and it would be preferable to know the full facts before commenting.

I am not prepared to comment on this case as it would be too many "ifs" and I'd be there forever.

What I will say is that I always* use East Coast to book tickets, their helpline is good, my nearest major station is operated by East Coast, they have plenty of machines (including some outside the ticket office available 24/7) and their ticket office has decent opening hours and the staff are well trained. Therefore I am fortunate in that I don't generally experience problems. However those that do, I am willing to help, if I can ascertain the full facts.

* OK not quite always if there's a special offer.

It was at Dorridge station, relatively small station with 3 platforms but respectable usage figures. The problem is that recently Chiltern have had real staffing problems at the station and as a result have been relying on a single ticket machine (interestingly this machine lies beyond signs advising that you are entering a penalty fare zone which seems silly). Trouble is the local population is a mixture of commuters and elderly. I tend to travel late morning so seem to spend a few minutes each day explaining the workings of the machine to fellow passengers (mostly because it means I can buy my ticket faster). On this occasion it was an elderly lady travelling to Marylebone on a Chiltern service.

The machine is ridiculously unreliable and they recently took out the permit to travel machine which means I have had to board trains before with no ticket having been presented with no opportunity to purchase. Anyway this woman was obviously distressed, no sign of any staff and as I say the wall help points have not worked for ages. Unfortunately I had to board a train to Brimingham before her scheduled departure or I would have stuck around to help her explain to the guard when the train arrived. Hopefully she got it sorted but it is worrying as she seemed very upset by the whole situation.

Unfortunately it seems indicative of Chilterns attitude towards the station. Low staffing levels lead to queues of upwards of fifteen minutes at the machines at off peak times and there has been no effort to adjust the ticket office hours to reflect the passenger needs. My email to this effect has been ignored.

Anyway, rant over. I was just interested to see what would be the correct action in this circumstance, was unsure of the guards abilities to look up booking details on the train.

 

[yorkie]

Scotrail policy is as follows. 1) If the passenger has no ticket then they must purchase one regardless of the reason for not having one. 2) Depending on the reason for not originally having one they may claim a refund on the ticket bought. 3) If the lack of ticket was due to a TVM failure then you would get a full refund on the ticket bought on the train with no admin fee upon the issue of your pre booked ticket at a Scotrail booking office.

That's fine, but given the TOC was at fault and making passengers jump through so many hoops, I hope an Admin fee would apply... in favour of the customer. Given that a simple refund incurs an admin fee of £10, I think £20 would seem reasonable. If the TOCs deem this unreasonable, then I put it to them that they are unreasonable.
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It was at Dorridge station.....

I would say that she should simply board and explain, if charged anything then to obtain a UPFN (not handing over any cash) and then seek advice at Marylebone, get the original ticket printed there and the UPFN cancelled. (I would also hand them one of our 'business cards' if I had one on me! )

As regards Chiltern's failings, that does concern me. However the DfT (who could do something about it) don't give a damn, as they are too busy throwing a wobbler over a shelter and a lift (well, not really, they're just excuses). They don't care if passengers are put off rail travel by incidents such as this, indeed I suspect they welcome it as they don't want to invest in the increased capacity needed for future growth predictions. Absurd but, I believe, true. The DfT are 'fining' Chiltern £500k, details here, but the main reason is that they co-operated by the now defunct WSMR and DfT admit the effect on passengers (which was actually positive!) was, in their own words, "minor". The DfT are enemies of rail travel and enemies of passengers, and have been for several years now and their attitude and policies do not appear to have changed under the new Government, which is disappointing.

The DfT do read this forum (though I doubt they read every topic of course, so they may not read this - which would be a shame) and appear to be scared of us (and so they should be!), they really dislike FOI requests too.

 

[DaveNewcastle]

I think Yorkie was wise to warn that there are many variables that could apply in circumstances like this, and no single answer will apply to all circumstances.
Perhaps the passenger at the station with the defective equipment could telephone the TOC's Customer Services on a mobile for advice before taking any action.

Without such advice, the passenger is simply going to have to board without a ticket; but it would often be helpful to look for the Guard and have a quick word with the Guard before stepping on. (On short trains this shouldn't be difficult). Few Guards would be unhelpful in those circumstances - they may even have a moment to spare to confirm your report of a defective machine or may know from earlier journeys or from their duty notes, that the machine(s) at that station were out of order (and so they could treat you accordingly).

I've been in a very similar situation and the guard accepted my booking reference print-out (as if it was a ticket) without even studying it!
On some routes, there would be an opportunity to alight at a later station and collect the tickets there; if not, then surely at the destination.

But the main point I wanted to make is this: if the Guard is aware of the defective machine then of course they will be sympathetic and supportive. But if they're not, then they will be grateful for the report, which they will want to communicate to their Control / depot. for the benefit of all passengers and guards on that route.

I'd be rather surprised if I found myself to be in that situation and was then asked to pay again (even with the prospects of a re-claim), but if I was, and if I was unable to make that unexpected second payment, then we would simply have to agree that I should be issued with an Unpaid Fare Notice (UPFN) which, in due course I would have cancelled when reporting the machine's fault.

For completeness, I must add that a failure of the TVM to read a bank card / credit card correctly (in contrast to a dead machine) would not in my analysis qualify as a machine failure (although I have now probably experienced over 30 incidences of TVMs not recognising one of my cards). In those cases, I would simply explain the truth, that the TVM couldn't recognise the card, and so perhaps an on-board repacement ticket would be in order.

But once again - there is no universal answer to this.
I hope this helps.

 

[Anon Mouse]

Work hat on - we have no means of checking if the reference number is correct, exists or is for the right journey. The passenger would have to buy a new ticket and get a refund from the TOC or point of issuie. Yes a bit unfair, but that is what my TOC advixe us. The same applies even if there is a print out from Internet or confirmation on mobile. If my TOC however are aware of a problem they may give us permission to accept the reference number or if the passenger needs to transfer, pick up their tickest from the transfer station.

 

[yorkie]

Good points, Dave. I should have said to seek the guard, if there is one. Although Chiltern is DOO nearer London, I believe they do have guards in the Dorridge area, however this can no doubt be confirmed by others. Although no such requirement exists, in the event of problems (or asking for favours!), then I would of course seek the guard and would encourage anyone to do so.

Regarding the ticket machine, if I was there I would perhaps be able to test my card, to determine if it was a faulty machine or just not reading one particular customers. However whether that could be done would depend on whether I had anything to collect/purchase, which may or may not be the case. If we know the machine was definitely faulty, and was the only machine, then for sure the customer has no option but to board the train and should be treated with "no opportunity to buy before boarding", so the price of a UPFN (if any) would, at least, be minimised.
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Work hat on - we have no means of checking if the reference number is correct, exists or is for the right journey. The passenger would have to buy a new ticket and get a refund from the TOC or point of issuie.

Surely the replacement ticket can be cancelled/refunded at the customers' destination (or interchange if applicable) if this location is one operated by the same TOC who operates the service, e.g. in this case Marylebone / Chiltern.

Yes a bit unfair, but that is what my TOC advixe us.

Your honestly that TOCs treat customers in an unfair way is refreshing. However I wish it did not have to be this way.

The same applies even if there is a print out from Internet or confirmation on mobile. If my TOC however are aware of a problem they may give us permission to accept the reference number or if the passenger needs to transfer, pick up their tickest from the transfer station.

Yes that makes sense.

 

[Anon Mouse]

Remember the Guard does have some discretion as well. We appreciate somebody speaking to us before they board to tell us the situation we can also contact our control who may or may not authorise the passenger to travel. However discretion is not a God gievn right and other factors onboard may dictate the official black and white rules. Also remember that not every passenger is honest and sometimes if in doubt its best to take the official line.

As you said earlier there is no one answer for this problem

 

[stut]

The downside of the "claim it back" approach is that, while someone may be able to afford £20 for an Advance fare, they won't necessarily be able to magic up a spare £150 for the walk-up.

 

[AlterEgo]

Would they only be able to refund the originals or could they get the cost of the new tickets refunded if they provide proof they travelled on the correct train? Seems very unfair and weighted heavily in the TOCs favour.

I did mean the additionals! I'm a fool!!

 

[Anon Mouse]

The downside of the "claim it back" approach is that, while someone may be able to afford £20 for an Advance fare, they won't necessarily be able to magic up a spare £150 for the walk-up.

and also, most people would be unhappy to pay again even if its just a couple of quid. A TI may be completed under these circumstances however. Remember some stations have barriers or Revenue Blocks...

 

[AlterEgo]

That's fine, but given the TOC was at fault and making passengers jump through so many hoops, I hope an Admin fee would apply... in favour of the customer. Given that a simple refund incurs an admin fee of £10, I think £20 would seem reasonable. If the TOCs deem this unreasonable, then I put it to them that they are unreasonable.

Can't comment exactly but standard procedure for my TOC is to refund the additional tickets, and comp some Travel Vouchers if the passenger's been inconvenienced badly.

 

[yorkie]

Thanks for the info Anon Mouse but I'd still like to know if the official line allows for this:

Surely the replacement ticket can be cancelled/refunded at the customers' destination (or interchange if applicable) if this location is one operated by the same TOC who operates the service, e.g. in this case Marylebone / Chiltern.

I believe this is the official line, as indicated by this post.

Scotrail policy is as follows. 1) If the passenger has no ticket then they must purchase one regardless of the reason for not having one. 2) Depending on the reason for not originally having one they may claim a refund on the ticket bought. 3) If the lack of ticket was due to a TVM failure then you would get a full refund on the ticket bought on the train with no admin fee upon the issue of your pre booked ticket at a Scotrail booking office.

However if you can confirm that would be useful (if nothing else, to confirm the policy applies on whatever TOC in the North East you work for in addition to Scotrail, ie, I am trying to determine if this likely to be a national policy )

 

[Anon Mouse]

I'm sure our policy is identical to Scotrail's.....I imagine most TOC's will have the same policy or at least similar

 

[moonrakerz]

Has anyone actually "gone to Court" over this one ? It would be interesting to see what a Magistrate/Judge/legal profession made of this.
As with so many things connected with rail travel there seems to be no (or perhaps there is and no one follows it !) standard policy - with each TOC doing its own thing. Probably, the TOCs have not yet caught up with this new-fangled thing called the Internet and the "system" still caters only for people buying a ticket over the counter, for which it would work perfectly !

Could you imaging the response if Argos or John Lewis operated a similar system - they would be out of business in no time. You order and pay on line, then go to collect: "Sorry sir, we can't let you have the cheap one, they're locked in a different warehouse and we've lost the key, you will have to buy one of the full price ones then write to us and ask for your money back !!"

The passenger has paid his money, the TOC which manages the station where he attempted to collect the ticket from has made it impossible for him to do so.
The passenger has kept to his side of the contract - why should he have to pay an increased amount of money for a walk-up ticket, then go through all the inconvenience of reclaiming his money back ?

I use Advance tickets quite a bit, I always try and collect the tickets beforehand - with varying degrees of success ! On one occasion it was 3 days before the TVMs were working and the booking office manned (luckily I did have 3 days in hand!). I do buy my tickets from the TOC that manages my local station to avoid any "buck passing" there.

On the rare occasion that I have to collect on the day of travel I carry the receipt from the internet booking with me - I have to say that if I couldn't collect my ticket I would NOT buy another on the train.
If it is offence to travel on the train without a ticket then the guard can give me one. I have paid for my ticket, and I can prove it - I am certainly not buying another.............

 

[WillPS]

Plus I think it's easier if you buy from the same TOC that you start your journey from. For a start they can't use the "It's not us, it's another company" excuse (that really is pathetic but I do hear it).

I have had this unbelievably shoddy line threw at me by staff at Sheffield station, for booking on eastmidlandstrains.com!! All I was asking for was one of the little paper things they give to hold tickets in, and the response I got was that they were for East Midlands Trains customers only, and that didn't include EMT online sales.

When I move back to Sheffield, I think I'm going to take some of them to task over their policy of not selling Off-Peak tickets (or tickets with restricted validity like the Derbyshire Wayfarer) before 9.

You're right in what you say, they're completely anti-customer.

 

[yorkie]

I'm sure our policy is identical to Scotrail's.....I imagine most TOC's will have the same policy or at least similar

Can't comment exactly but standard procedure for my TOC is to refund the additional tickets, and comp some Travel Vouchers if the passenger's been inconvenienced badly.

Thanks to both of you for the info, I do feel that for many people it could be resolved at their destination/interchange point, in that case, and thus avoiding potential faffing about with forms and letters and appeals etc. It does rather depend on the journey though.
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I have had this unbelievably shoddy line threw at me by staff at Sheffield station, for booking on eastmidlandstrains.com!! All I was asking for was one of the little paper things they give to hold tickets in, and the response I got was that they were for East Midlands Trains customers only, and that didn't include EMT online sales.

When I move back to Sheffield, I think I'm going to take some of them to task over their policy of not selling Off-Peak tickets (or tickets with restricted validity like the Derbyshire Wayfarer) before 9.

You're right in what you say, they're completely anti-customer.

Sheffield are well known. Would you (or anyone reading this who is Sheffield-based, or near there) be willing to join us for some 'mystery shopping' some time? I'm passing through after one of our cycle rides the week after next. I could save up a list of tickets I need to buy and test to see if they comply with the rules of impartial retailing. Any issues may be dealt with by doing our own version of an MG11, (ie, we take a witness statement) we then write an 'irregularity' letter to the various bodies such as Passenger Focus and ATOC informing them that a breach of the Ticketing & Settlement Agreement has occurred, and perhaps we could press for prosecution, if suitable settlements are not made.

Two can play at this game
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Has anyone actually "gone to Court" over this one ?

Under the 'right' circumstances I am confident the TOC would cancel any UPFN before it went to court, and if they didn't, they'd lose. However anyone wishing to test this would need to be very careful. I'd love to see it happen. However in all the cases I've known, the TOC backs down when they realise they're clearly in the wrong.

I've heard of several stalemate situations (not specifically for this type of issue but other ones where the customer is in the right), where the TOC refuses to carry out any further action in that they won't offer compensation but then they won't persue anything either. It's advantageous to ensure that they are the ones who are chasing you at the point that they drop interest, rather than the other way round, as getting money you already paid them can be impossible. Hence why, if you know you are right, I'd advise on getting a UPFN rather than parting with cash.

 

[Ivo]

Didn't I suggest something along the lines of Mystery Shopping some time ago? Irrespective of whether I'm speaking truth or cuckoo, in the event that I'm in Yorkshire when this happens (however unlikely, but you never know ) I'd be more than happy to join in.

I could try to find out FGW's policy on this as well. I expect that they will come out with something broadly similar. Not sure I can expect the same of the other three "local" TOCs though (AW, SW and XC).

 

[yorkie]

Didn't I suggest something along the lines of Mystery Shopping some time ago? Irrespective of whether I'm speaking truth or cuckoo, in the event that I'm in Yorkshire when this happens (however unlikely, but you never know ) I'd be more than happy to join in.

I could try to find out FGW's policy on this as well. I expect that they will come out with something broadly similar. Not sure I can expect the same of the other three "local" TOCs though (AW, SW and XC).

I'm always up for assisting people with 'mystery shopping' providing I am available and in the area, and providing the requests made are reasonable and well thought-out. I will stand back and make notes if needed, and provide advice where required. I am happy to proof read and ensure a good, concise letter is produced.

 

[Ivo]

Have you got a list of potentially awkward routes and requests ready? Or is this a "PM" matter?

 

[bb21]

Sheffield are well known. Would you (or anyone reading this who is Sheffield-based, or near there) be willing to join us for some 'mystery shopping' some time? I'm passing through after one of our cycle rides the week after next. I could save up a list of tickets I need to buy and test to see if they comply with the rules of impartial retailing. Any issues may be dealt with by doing our own version of an MG11, (ie, we take a witness statement) we then write an 'irregularity' letter to the various bodies such as Passenger Focus and ATOC informing them that a breach of the Ticketing & Settlement Agreement has occurred, and perhaps we could press for prosecution, if suitable settlements are not made.

Two can play at this game

Three can. I'll be very interested to join you two, even though that means letting EMT have another £15 of my money.

 

[Ivo]

Three can. I'll be very interested to join you two, even though that means letting EMT have another £15 of my money.

You could always actually use the ticket and consider it a bash! Although... I suspect that Bures to Salwick isn't the easiest to do...

Knowing Sheffield, they would probably tell you that you need to travel via Grimsby.

I am going to be in so much trouble for slagging off Sheffield...!

 

[bb21]

Have you got a list of potentially awkward routes and requests ready? Or is this a "PM" matter?

I would imagine that a certain CDR between DBY and a station in Wales starting with P would test the clerk on quite a few fronts, albeit that costs around £15 on Y-P
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You could always actually use the ticket and consider it a bash!

Now actually going all the way on this ticket to Pxxxx WOULD be interesting as it covers a new line for me.