Hypothetical: boarding a fast train by mistake

[island]

Suppose a passenger possesses a paper zone 1-4 Travelcard and joins a train at London Waterloo East, desirous of travelling to Grove Park (zone 4). After the train leaves London Bridge, he realises that he has joined the wrong train and its next calling point is Orpington (Zone 6).

Seeking to regularise his situation, the passenger quickly logs onto his favourite TOC’s app and purchases a day return ticket from Elmstead Woods (last zone 4 station on line of route) to Orpington, to enable him to return to Grove Park by a local train. Mobile tickets are not available on the line so the ticket is set for collection at Orpington.

Has the passenger , at this stage, committed an offence? If so, what?

You may assume, if it matters, that the online purchase was completed before the train passed the last station in zone 4.

 

[Fawkes Cat]

Do you want a formal answer or a real world answer?

Formally, I suspect the answer is 'yes', but I'll have to wait for someone to come along and say what the offence might be.

In the real world, if on board staff come along, or there is someone on the barrier line, then assuming our passenger explains what has happened, the railway staff will smile nicely and move on to the next person. Real world life is far too short to spend trying to prosecute offences which aren't at all clear.

 

[Bletchleyite]

In my observation, when people inadvertently overtravel, and simply go over the bridge at the unintended destination and take the next train back, nothing at all happens to them. Often in DOO areas they won't even encounter a member of staff doing that.

And even where they do...I've certainly heard an RPI at Milton Keynes Central saying to someone "I can let you out here, but it'll cost you 20 quid; you can go back to Bletchley if you want though". If I recall correctly the passenger did take that option.

 

[najaB]

Has the passenger , at this stage, committed an offence? If so, what?

I'd say no. He hasn't committed a Byelaw offence (he had a valid ticket when he boarded) and I don't think a TOC could prove intent to avoid payment (RRoA).

 

[Bletchleyite]

He only had a valid ticket when he boarded if he missed his stop. Someone incorrectly boarding a train that did not stop at their intending station does not have a valid ticket on boarding. I agree it would be hard to make RoRA stick.

 

[najaB]

Someone incorrectly boarding a train that did not stop at their intending station does not have a valid ticket on boarding

Grey area, I think.

 

[A Challenge]

He had a valid ticket on boarding at Waterloo East, for one stop to London Bridge, that can't be argued with.

 

[MikeWh]

He had a valid ticket on boarding at Waterloo East, for one stop to London Bridge, that can't be argued with.

Agreed, especially if the ticket was a travelcard.

 

[heart-of-wessex]

Been there done that!

Was out basing units in the evening peak between Waterloo East and London Bridge so numbers mattered over the destination of the train. 12 car 375 rolls up, needed it, jumped on, non stop Orpington!!

Heads straight to next London train, explains to RPI I got off that train that was fast from London, let me travel back and explained it happens quite often

 

[robbeech]

Someone incorrectly boarding a train that did not stop at their intending station does not have a valid ticket on boarding

I know what you are implying but maybe worded like this it could be misunderstood.
If I board a train at King’s Cross on a Retford ticket (no restrictions) and my train stops at Newark but not Retford it doesn’t make my ticket invalid on boarding. It makes it invalid upon departing Newark.

 

[Trackman]

ah, he's gone on the fast one. been done before especially in a hurry, staff would understand if he had been stopped. as najaB says, 'I don't think a TOC could prove intent to avoid payment'., unless you didn't double back at the first opportunity

 

[Islineclear3_1]

Have genuinely fallen asleep and missed my stop once or twice. Been honest, and no issues

 

[Bletchleyite]

I know what you are implying but maybe worded like this it could be misunderstood.
If I board a train at King’s Cross on a Retford ticket (no restrictions) and my train stops at Newark but not Retford it doesn’t make my ticket invalid on boarding. It makes it invalid upon departing Newark.

Correct. But if you board an HST at Paddington with a ticket to Slough and it's first stop Reading, the ticket was invalid the second it departed Paddington.

Your example is fine, as you can change at Newark. Just as a ticket to Reading West would be valid on the HST noted.

Sorry for any confusion

 

[Bletchleyite]

Grey area, I think.

Others have pointed out the oversimplification I made. Probably better to say that if you board a train that does not stop at your destination but does stop before it, you are valid until it departs that stop. If it's non stop past your destination, you are invalid straight away (unless you're doing something like what used to be called a 19(c) split). But it's not a grey area, each of the cases is very clear cut.

 

[Peter Mugridge]

I got caught out by the late running 12.15 from Paddington to Cardiff on Monday; I was intending to go to Reading and only realised it was non-stop to Bristol Parkway after it started moving...

Got the ticket endorsed by the manager within minutes with no problems.

The most galling thing about it was we got held just short of the platforms at Swindon for 2 or 3 minutes ( so the stop could easily have been left in! ) and then at Wootton Bassett had to grit my teeth while the required pair of 800s I was planning on getting back from Reading came past...

 

[najaB]

But it's not a grey area, each of the cases is very clear cut.

As stated, the reply would be 'Well, depends.' so it was very much a grey area (as has been demonstrated).

 

[SEClass375]

This has almost happened to me:
I was travelling to Tonbridge from Charing X and train I intended to get (to Tunbridge Wells) was cancelled. So I thought I'd catch the train to Ore (which I thought stopped at Tonbridge). Got on the train just after it arrived and got comfortable. At 5 mins before the train leaves (and before they changed the announcements onboarad a 375 ) it announced all the stops with the first stop after Waterloo is the stop after Tonbridge (which is High Brooms). I was slightly panicked but I got out of the train before it left.
The above is why i dont like the new announcements on a 375.

On the flipside (and being quite flippant) with the OP's situation. Surely I'd think (now the 375 refurb is just about complete) that it is a fast train if a 375 turns up because it is a completely different colour to the usual train and with dox matrix by each door that you can check if in doubt where the train is going and where it is stopping at.
Granted that it is rarely the case where mainline and metro trains are different colours and that each train has a dot matrix to tell you where it stops at.

 

[stut]

I once made a schoolboy error at Waterloo (this was at the end of slam door days) - needed to get to Wimbledon before a van hire place shut, was running rather late (end of rush hour), and jumped on a Guildford stopper just as it was pulling away, which would get me there minutes before it closed.

Or did I? No, it was on the other platform. This was a Basingstoke semi-fast, first stop Surbiton. Oops. The guard came round and I showed him my travelcard, apologised and asked what best to do. He told me there was a pick-up stop at Wimbledon, so I could jump out there. Phew. I would actually comfortably make it. I don't know if he thought I was trying it on just to get off at the pick-up only stop, but I think I had an expression of such genuine relief that I got away with it!

How does it work with PAYG these days, I wonder? I use KeyGo on GN, which of course means that your destination isn't set until you get off the train. So you'd have a valid pass until you turned around, I guess. I've often been tempted, when it's really cold at Hitchin and I'm headed to Biggleswade with a bit of a wait, to get on a fast-to-St-Neots train and turn around there to head back. Wouldn't save me much time, but it'd be an awful lot warmer. Not that I've acted on it, mind.

 

[matt_world2004]

I have done it diring disruption been meaning to go to hayes. Got on what I thought was a slow train and the first stop has been Reading.

 

[A Challenge]

I got caught out by a broken door (I'd walked up the train to sit down and didn't get up until the last moment) at Waterloo East heading out of Charing Cross on a travelcard, luckily got off just in time in the next coach forward and wasn't overcarried (to London Bridge).