Ideas for future of displaced rolling stock

[whhistle]

AGA 170s are going to KAW franchise...
KAW rolling stock provision is decided so 185s will unlikely be drafted in.

KAW Franchise? Who dat?

To be fair, it should be W&B as that's the brand name they're having - Wales and Boarders.

 

[Jack Wicket]

Can't they just re paint / re sticker them?

 

[edwin_m]

Since when? Still sound exactly the same as they did before.

I believe, based on posts on here, that they replaced the 323 power electronics with modern equivalents but didn't change the traction control software, which would have raised a lot more safety approval issues. The sound is down to how the software triggers the power electronics, not to the power electronics themselves.

 

[Lockwood]

I guess with thameslink imminently running at maximum through the core, the 707's may not be needed, but making them 4-car could be a very useful fleet for lengthening 8 car units in the peak. Then the spare trailers could join the 321 trailers left over from the 320's!

Keep the spare trailers within franchise and use them to strengthen the 483s to 3 car units. DMSO(A) TSO(L)W DMSO(B)

 

[317 forever]

Some of the TPE 185s being displaced could stay with TPE and enable them to take over Nottingham - Liverpool services from East Midlands Railway.

 

[jeromeroberts]

Here are my suggestions but i don't expect it to happen

707 - Moving them to Northern for the Leeds - Doncaster/Bradford etc, Moving the 333's to manchester/liverpool replacing 319's.

458 - Move them to southern southcoast service replacing 313/377

350/2 / 360 - Move them to scotrail convert all to 3 car replacing those 318/320's, The spare coaches could then move to SWR to convert a number of 450's into 5 car concidering they are very similar it possible that could be done. The 5 car 360/2 could also move to Scotrail for its possible Edinburgh - Newcastle commuter. Similar story could be said with 365's with the coaches added on to 465/466's

379 - Move them to Midland Mainline Corby service.


Ex WMT/AGA 170 - Mjority of them could go to EMT Replacing all but 158's sprinters while the others could go to XC maybe Chiltern?

185 - Unless TPE takes over EMT's Liverpool - Nottingham section, They could moved to Wales exclusively for Llandudno - Manchester service or its future East/West rail link

MK4 - convert them to a push pull with 67/68 in a shorter formation (Loco +5/6 MK4+ DVT) Send them to Wales long distance service/EMT Liverpool - Norwich/Cross Country however according to Modern Railways (Volume 75, Number 837) Colchester based MAN is offering to upgrade EMT HST to allow them to work with the mk4's.

my speculative assumption

Due to the ongoing GTR circus and timetable fiasco


Class 707 to TFL (London Overground) to replace 455 and cascade 377 throughout the Southern network allowing 377/3 to return to the Coastway replacing the 313.


TFL to take control over GN northern city line services with existing 717 and all Southern Metro routes From London Bridge on Sydenham Slow, all routes via Tulse Hill with 707 extended with additional trailers to RLU’s exactly same as Thameslink 700/0 without toilets possibly ‘assembled flat pack in Goole to satisfy TfL‘s Built in Britain mantra


Class 379 EMT Corby


387/3 GWR


Class 360 with new cabs allowing all units to be reclassified as 350/450 to allow additional capacity where required within existing fleets on WMT and SWR



458 Southern/SWR bimode with batteries or diesel modules for Uckfield and services via Sailsbury

 

[dk1]

Ironic that the 707s have become the UKs most reliable EMU according to MR (Aug 18).

 

[43096]

Ironic that the 707s have become the UKs most reliable EMU according to MR (Aug 18).

No they haven’t. You need to read the piece on page 36 of MR more carefully - they are most reliable of the new fleets recently introduced, which is something completely different.

 

[dk1]

No they haven’t. You need to read the piece on page 36 of MR more carefully - they are most reliable of the new fleets recently introduced, which is something completely different.

Im so rubbish at reading the small print Excellent performance though & good to see.

 

[43096]

Im so rubbish at reading the small print Excellent performance though & good to see.

Errrrrrrr, no it isn’t. By comparison with other fleets - see “Golden Spanners” data in January MR - reliability of the new fleets is poor. That’s why Roger Ford is highlighting their performance monthly.

 

[dk1]

Errrrrrrr, no it isn’t. By comparison with other fleets - see “Golden Spanners” data in January MR - reliability of the new fleets is poor. That’s why Roger Ford is highlighting their performance monthly.

More small print then. Must try harder.

 

[59CosG95]

My penn'orth:
458/5s to South Eastern Railway (as they'll be known next): this can allow the 377/5s to return to Southern, and allow the 465/9s to be withdrawn if First Class was added.
707s to SER: this can allow 30 pairings of 465 + 465 + 466 to be withdrawn.
379s to EMR: could be upgraded to 110mph if the OLE was sufficiently meaty, to be used on the Corby services (like everyone seems to be keen on saying).
387/3s to GWR: most likely course of action there too.
350/2s to SWR: infrastructure upgrades permitting, this could allow for more coaches to be used on services out of Waterloo. (Unlikely, given how constrained SWR's depot spaces are, and the inefficiency of the 3rd rail vice the OLE)

As to the 360s and 365s, I'm clueless.

 

[Domh245]

379s to EMR: could be upgraded to 110mph if the OLE was sufficiently meaty, to be used on the Corby services (like everyone seems to be keen on saying).

I thought at first that you were referring to European Metal Recycling (Kingsbury) and got a little worried!

 

[dorsetdesiro]

As to the 360s and 365s, I'm clueless.

ScotRail for those routes not serviced by the newer trains (380 & 385) and HSTs?

 

[Mikey C]

My penn'orth:
458/5s to South Eastern Railway (as they'll be known next): this can allow the 377/5s to return to Southern, and allow the 465/9s to be withdrawn if First Class was added.
707s to SER: this can allow 30 pairings of 465 + 465 + 466 to be withdrawn.
379s to EMR: could be upgraded to 110mph if the OLE was sufficiently meaty, to be used on the Corby services (like everyone seems to be keen on saying).
387/3s to GWR: most likely course of action there too.
350/2s to SWR: infrastructure upgrades permitting, this could allow for more coaches to be used on services out of Waterloo. (Unlikely, given how constrained SWR's depot spaces are, and the inefficiency of the 3rd rail vice the OLE)

As to the 360s and 365s, I'm clueless.

No way will Southeastern be palmed off with the unwanted stock from SWR! The 458/5s and 707s are 5 car stock anyway, when the SE can take 12 car trains. Especially as SE has no current Siemens or Alstom stock.

707s to Southern would make more sense, fewer 12 car services, and commonality with the 700s.

 

[mic505]

30 379's might be overkill for EMR's Corby service because 4 x 4 or 5-car 222's are used for the hourly service. So 3 in traffic, 1 spare. Journey time 1 hour 10 minutes (110-125 mph diesel timings). For 2tph 18 379's would be the max, including some 12-car operation imo.

360's and/or 365's would be good fit for Scotrail because those units could replace the 318's and displace more DMU's post-2020.

 

[3141]

There are several situations for which some of the stock being displaced would be very suitable, but the TOCs concerned either already have franchise agreements signed with the DfT and contracts with manufacturers for the necessary new stock (SWR for example), or they are drawing up bids according to the DfT's Invitation to Tender (e.g. South Eastern) with which the displaced stock is not compatible. The time for these ideas (most of them, anyway) has already gone by. Unfortunately.

 

[318266]

Class 707 - Shove off to Scotland, to replace the Class 318/320.

 

[Mikey C]

There are several situations for which some of the stock being displaced would be very suitable, but the TOCs concerned either already have franchise agreements signed with the DfT and contracts with manufacturers for the necessary new stock (SWR for example), or they are drawing up bids according to the DfT's Invitation to Tender (e.g. South Eastern) with which the displaced stock is not compatible. The time for these ideas (most of them, anyway) has already gone by. Unfortunately.

I thought C2C buying new stock was a bit unnecessary for example. Surely it would have made more sense to have revisited their franchise promise and instead to acquire secondhand Electrostars from elsewhere. Now they'll have a large fleet of 20 year old trains plus a new smaller (and incompatible) fleet of Aventras.

 

[hwl]

My penn'orth:
458/5s to South Eastern Railway (as they'll be known next): this can allow the 377/5s to return to Southern, and allow the 465/9s to be withdrawn if First Class was added.
707s to SER: this can allow 30 pairings of 465 + 465 + 466 to be withdrawn.
379s to EMR: could be upgraded to 110mph if the OLE was sufficiently meaty, to be used on the Corby services (like everyone seems to be keen on saying).
387/3s to GWR: most likely course of action there too.
350/2s to SWR: infrastructure upgrades permitting, this could allow for more coaches to be used on services out of Waterloo. (Unlikely, given how constrained SWR's depot spaces are, and the inefficiency of the 3rd rail vice the OLE)

As to the 360s and 365s, I'm clueless.

If you read the SE Franchise tender documents (that effectively disqualify 458 and 707 unless modified, refurbished and length issues probably sorted) and the announcements from the 3 bidders there will be new Metro Stock supplied by Alstom (Stagecoach) or Hitachi (Govia & Abellio) that ain't happening.

379s - Macquarie is the ROSCO and fairly technically lacking (not surprising since very small) so don't bet on 110mph unless they have done the sensible thing and speak to Bombardier about what upgrades are need to get them back earning. If the new stock on Anglia is delayed a bit (i.e. to late for Corby) being modified to 387 spec and going to GatEx, GWR or GN might be sensible

 

[hwl]

I thought C2C buying new stock was a bit unnecessary for example. Surely it would have made more sense to have revisited their franchise promise and instead to acquire secondhand Electrostars from elsewhere. Now they'll have a large fleet of 20 year old trains plus a new smaller (and incompatible) fleet of Aventras.

Given other issues e.g. new Timetable that they had to go back on then they have to keep some promises.

 

[Mikey C]

Given other issues e.g. new Timetable that they had to go back on then they have to keep some promises.

There has to be some flexibility though. If by foregoing a small fleet of new trains, they instead acquire MORE secondhand (but still newish) carriages, I doubt the c2c commuters would be complaining. Especially if they arrive earlier.

 

[TRAX]

Hi there,

Given talks about future Southeastern new trains as part of the next franchise, what will happen to the displaced stock ? If I understood correctly the bidders for the next franchise have all talked about new stock, hence my question.

 

[Goldfish62]

Hi there,

Given talks about future Southeastern new trains as part of the next franchise, what will happen to the displaced stock ? If I understood correctly the bidders for the next franchise have all talked about new stock, hence my question.

I can see the notworkers heading for the scrapheap. They'll be almost 30 years old and not particularly reliable.

 

[TRAX]

30 years old seems young but if they are that unreliable...
It appears new stock is becoming the norm with a new franchise...

 

[Goldfish62]

30 years old seems young but if they are that unreliable...
It appears new stock is becoming the norm with a new franchise...

40 years is the typical projected shelf life for electric stock (30 for diesel) so I'd hardly call them young.

Many VEPs went for scrap when they were 30 years, and as for the 310/312s...

 

[LOL The Irony]

Being reported in one of the Northern threads that another Northern depot is being trained on 323's.

 

[TRAX]

Is Northern receiving the discarded LM 323s ?

 

[LOL The Irony]

Is Northern receiving the discarded LM 323s ?

I don't know.

 

[Mikey C]

40 years is the typical projected shelf life for electric stock (30 for diesel) so I'd hardly call them young.

Many VEPs went for scrap when they were 30 years, and as for the 310/312s...

The irony is that due to the diesel shortage, the related 165/166s will outlast the electric 465/466s...