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Ideas for Service changes

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Bald Rick

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Another Service which might be possible and Useful a Brighton-Gatwick-East Croydon-Herne Hill-Blackfriars-Farringdon-St Pancras Low Level-Acton Mainline-Heathrow T2&3-Heathrow T5 and then once the line is built Slough-Maidenhead-Reading.

That'll need some OLE in between.

And resignalling, and somehow increasing capacity on the Brighton Line, and Herne Hill, and West Hampstead and Acton Wells and the GWML relief lines, and Heathrow. But other than that…

I was taking in the Convenience of not having to change especially as Airport Connections have luggage.

Almost all airline passengers have luggage. A significant number of them who travel to the airport by rail change trains. It is not really an issue.


how many people are connecting between the Airports?

Close to zero. It’s an answer looking for a question.
 
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zwk500

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And resignalling, and somehow increasing capacity on the Brighton Line, and Herne Hill, and West Hampstead and Acton Wells and the GWML relief lines, and Heathrow. But other than that…
I was trying to be focus only on the most immediate obstacles. Increasing capacity on other lines is irrelevant if Acton Bank isn't wired - there's no run up in the world long enough for that charge.
 

4-SUB 4732

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And resignalling, and somehow increasing capacity on the Brighton Line, and Herne Hill, and West Hampstead and Acton Wells and the GWML relief lines, and Heathrow. But other than that…



Almost all airline passengers have luggage. A significant number of them who travel to the airport by rail change trains. It is not really an issue.




Close to zero. It’s an answer looking for a question.
I can barely even begin to fathom a Brighton - St Pancras - Acton and beyond. Christ.
 

Bald Rick

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I was trying to be focus only on the most immediate obstacles. Increasing capacity on other lines is irrelevant if Acton Bank isn't wired - there's no run up in the world long enough for that charge.

Yeah but on the way down ;)
 

JonathanH

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Yeah but on the way down ;)
Its a real shame no one has ever sent a 378 that way with a run up and a clear line. Perhaps the next time a 387 returns to GWR from Ilford could be an opportunity to try out coasting down the back at Acton.
 

Bartsimho

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Would a Brighton-Southampton-Bristol-Swansea service with intermediate stops at Chichester, Havant, Salisbury, Trowbridge, Bath, Newport and Cardiff be useful? I see Brighton to Southampton is only served by stopping services, The Portsmouth to Cardiff is also quite a stopper as well.

Would probably need a modified Class 700 which is shorter and have a more long distance interior like the 755 (I know the 755 is Stadler but all of the Desiro City trains have more Metro style interiors) and be a Tri-Mode train with Diesel Engines.

Edit: Or a combined Class 88 and Class 73 to have it Loco Hauled. But I have no idea about the size of the equipment needed for Third Rail and Pantograph Electrification
 
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JonathanH

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Would a Brighton-Southampton-Bristol-Swansea service with intermediate stops at Chichester, Havant, Salisbury, Trowbridge, Bath, Newport and Cardiff be useful?
Useful perhaps, but on a two track railway with very few passing places, practically impossible.
 

zwk500

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Would a Brighton-Southampton-Bristol-Swansea service with intermediate stops at Chichester, Havant, Salisbury, Trowbridge, Bath, Newport and Cardiff be useful?
Not really. Especially with no call at either Eastleigh or Southampton.
I see Brighton to Southampton is only served by stopping services, The Portsmouth to Cardiff is also quite a stopper as well.
Everything stops because running fast simply catches up the stopper in front quicker. People are happier to be on a train that stops frequently to let people use it than one that stops because the signal is red.
Would probably need a modified Class 700 which is shorter and have a more long distance interior like the 755 (I know the 755 is Stadler but all of the Desiro City trains have more Metro style interiors) and be a Tri-Mode train with Diesel Engines.
The only wires are from Filton Diamond to Cardiff, it could be a 3rd rail Bi-Mode rather than dual-voltage tri-mode.
Edit: Or a combined Class 88 and Class 73 to have it Loco Hauled. But I have no idea about the size of the equipment needed for Third Rail and Pantograph Electrification
This service would not be loco-hauled. turning it round at Brighton would be next to impossible.
 

Bartsimho

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Not really. Especially with no call at either Eastleigh or Southampton.

Everything stops because running fast simply catches up the stopper in front quicker. People are happier to be on a train that stops frequently to let people use it than one that stops because the signal is red.

The only wires are from Filton Diamond to Cardiff, it could be a 3rd rail Bi-Mode rather than dual-voltage tri-mode.

This service would not be loco-hauled. turning it round at Brighton would be next to impossible.
Does the Brighton-Portsmouth line have the signalling for opposite track running? It appears that the section has 5 trains in a direction each hour so it's probably impossible to hit into the timetable but this is the Speculation Forum and Timetables are reviewed.

Edit: For the Loco Hauled it could be a Push-Pulled. I was just adding it into the mix due to equipment size having a control car might be nice to house it.
 

zwk500

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Does the Brighton-Portsmouth line have the signalling for opposite track running? It appears that the section has 5 trains in a direction each hour so it's probably impossible to hit into the timetable but this is the Speculation Forum and Timetables are reviewed.
No it doesn't, and even if it did you wouldn't use it to overtake in normal running because the other track would have trains coming the other way on it!
Edit: For the Loco Hauled it could be a Push-Pulled. I was just adding it into the mix due to equipment size having a control car might be nice to house it.
You need MU acceleration between Brighton and Southampton. Push-Pull is a good option for trains with long consists and well-spaced stops travelling at consistent speeds, but it won't be much use in Sussex I'm afraid.

3rd rail isn't that difficult to add into a unit - the attraction of the system is that it needs much less train-borne equipment than AC OLE. And if designed from the start to include a genset connection, a dual-voltage bi-mode isn't a technical impossibility. The 769s managed to include a genset as a retrofit.
 

Bartsimho

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No it doesn't, and even if it did you wouldn't use it to overtake in normal running because the other track would have trains coming the other way on it!

You need MU acceleration between Brighton and Southampton. Push-Pull is a good option for trains with long consists and well-spaced stops travelling at consistent speeds, but it won't be much use in Sussex I'm afraid.

3rd rail isn't that difficult to add into a unit - the attraction of the system is that it needs much less train-borne equipment than AC OLE. And if designed from the start to include a genset connection, a dual-voltage bi-mode isn't a technical impossibility. The 769s managed to include a genset as a retrofit.
Just a thought would this be a line to implement Moving Block signalling on early due to it's 2 track nature? That seems like it could increase capacity a but and allow for a fast to set off later.
I can see a passing loop at Hove, Worthing, Maybe a chance if behind a Littlehampton train if it has diverged at Arundel Junction, Barnham also has a loop as well as the line to Bognor, Farlington Junction, After St Denys. It seems like a line location which would be really good if it had some more passing loops as Brighton, Portsmouth and Southampton are all good sized.
 

Dave W

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I always like these posts - keeps the forum on its toes :smile:

Perhaps you could wire up the lines from Kentish Town and have your proposed Gatwick-Heathrow train turn right onto the Goblin rather than left on to the GWML. A direct train from Crouch Hill to Brighton would be entirely convenient.

(For me)
 

zwk500

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What freight flows could be electrified if Acton Bank was wired?
On it's own, none. If you chucked in Willesden West london Jn to Acton Wells and London Gateway reception roads you'd have a flow to Wentloog.
Just a thought would this be a line to implement Moving Block signalling on early due to it's 2 track nature? That seems like it could increase capacity a but and allow for a fast to set off later.
Yes it would, but there's 2 problems - number 1 is that Moving Block signalling has so far only been deployed on self-contained metro lines with few or no junctions and a consistent service pattern. Number 2 is that it doesn't make the train in front of you any less substantial, so you still need to address the problem of catching up the stopper. FWIW moving block signalling isn't likely to be a significant advancement over ETCS L2 with short blocks, when it comes down to it.
I can see a passing loop at Hove, Worthing,
Those 2 get taken up with terminating trains.
Maybe a chance if behind a Littlehampton train if it has diverged at Arundel Junction, Barnham also has a loop as well as the line to Bognor
The big issue is the section from Barnham to Chichester. It's a fast track but has several stations and there's nowhere to Pass. Barnham's Loop could be used but only if it's not got a Bognor train in it.
, Farlington Junction, After St Denys. It seems like a line location which would be really good if it had some more passing loops as Brighton, Portsmouth and Southampton are all good sized.
I saw a strategy paper at one point that proposed 4-tracking through Worthing. That gave us a good laugh!
 

Bartsimho

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The big issue is the section from Barnham to Chichester. It's a fast track but has several stations and there's nowhere to Pass. Barnham's Loop could be used but only if it's not got a Bognor train in it.
Could a Fishbourne to Nutbourne avoiding Bosham work. It looks the most countryside in that section and Bosham is only on the Coast side of the line?
 

Peter0124

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I really wished they would stop some Shotts line services at Newton. Even just 1tph or even 1tp2h. The trains literally pass behind the station. If the Newton idea is unrealistic then atleast stop them at Cambuslang to make interchanging easier.

At present the best way of using the line is via Glasgow Central which most through tickets probably won't allow due to the double back at Cambuslang.

Changing at Motherwell and Bellshill is a lot of work, same for changing at Cambuslang and Uddingston. Made worse by the fact the Shotts service runs INFRONT of the Lanark.




Another silly one is the connections from the Hamilton Circle train at Cumbernauld with the Falkirk train.

They run the Falkirk train INFRONT of the Cumbernauld terminator. Meaning over a 50 minute wait for the next Falkirk service at Cumbernauld, effectively making that interchange useless in that direction.
 
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zwk500

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Could a Fishbourne to Nutbourne avoiding Bosham work. It looks the most countryside in that section and Bosham is only on the Coast side of the line?
What do you mean avoiding? It certainly can't go round the back of it. If you mean skip-stopping, maybe but it depends on travel patterns. I suspect that the potential traffic for your proposed train isn't high enough to start fiddling with stopping patterns.
 

Bartsimho

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What do you mean avoiding? It certainly can't go round the back of it. If you mean skip-stopping, maybe but it depends on travel patterns. I suspect that the potential traffic for your proposed train isn't high enough to start fiddling with stopping patterns.
It was maybe add a passing loop there as it looks more countryside than the built up towns the line goes through either side.

Edit: Here https://www.google.co.uk/maps/place...m2!3d50.8442014!4d-0.8474416?hl=en&authuser=0
 

zwk500

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It was maybe add a passing loop there as it looks more countryside than the built up towns the line goes through either side.

Edit: Here https://www.google.co.uk/maps/place...m2!3d50.8442014!4d-0.8474416?hl=en&authuser=0
There isn't the room to put a loop in at Bosham, you'd be taking out the two houses north of the line. The only station you might get a loop in is Emsworth, but a loop is only any value if it's in the right place, and I haven't done the analysis to see where a stopping train would actually get caught up.
 

30907

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On the West Coast(way) idea (and generally): if you want to avoid delaying a stopping train by looping it, you need the loop to include 2 or more consecutive stations (depending on signal headways).
 

Peregrine 4903

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On it's own, none. If you chucked in Willesden West london Jn to Acton Wells and London Gateway reception roads you'd have a flow to Wentloog.

Yes it would, but there's 2 problems - number 1 is that Moving Block signalling has so far only been deployed on self-contained metro lines with few or no junctions and a consistent service pattern. Number 2 is that it doesn't make the train in front of you any less substantial, so you still need to address the problem of catching up the stopper. FWIW moving block signalling isn't likely to be a significant advancement over ETCS L2 with short blocks, when it comes down to it.

Those 2 get taken up with terminating trains.

The big issue is the section from Barnham to Chichester. It's a fast track but has several stations and there's nowhere to Pass. Barnham's Loop could be used but only if it's not got a Bognor train in it.

I saw a strategy paper at one point that proposed 4-tracking through Worthing. That gave us a good laugh!
Pretty much no trains use the platform loop at Worthing. What makes it not very useful is that you can only loop trains in the up direction there.
 

JonathanH

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Ah I must have got it confused with the middle siding at West Worthing.
Pretty much no trains use that either now (although more than the loop at Worthing).

One of the issues previously discussed with Worthing loop has been the restrictive signalling such that the train stopped there is static for some time.

It seems like it survived because of the splitting / joining that used to take place there before 2007, when Littlehampton trains had a Southampton portion.
 

Peregrine 4903

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Pretty much no trains use that either now (although more than the loop at Worthing).

One of the issues previously discussed with Worthing loop has been the restrictive signalling such that the train stopped there is static for some time.

It seems like it survived because of the splitting / joining that used to take place there before 2007, when Littlehampton trains had a Southampton portion.
It does get used during engineering works when there are diversions on.
 

Bartsimho

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There isn't the room to put a loop in at Bosham, you'd be taking out the two houses north of the line. The only station you might get a loop in is Emsworth, but a loop is only any value if it's in the right place, and I haven't done the analysis to see where a stopping train would actually get caught up.
Thinking about this it probably would take a larger scale timetable change to implement but the passing at Barnham could be used on the Brighton to Southampton portion if it was lined up correctly especially as it is already on the Down side. I tried some basic timetabling and thought there was a 12 minute difference between a Stopper and a Fast between Brighton and Arundel Junction.
You could probably have a 4 trains per hour in the direction of the line Off-Peak with a Fast, a Stopper, a Stopper to Littlehampton and one to Portsmouth. There are also some trains from Victoria to Littlehampton which I assume are for Commuters so could be time dependent with the running of them with the Stopping pattern of the Fast changing in these times.
 

zwk500

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Thinking about this it probably would take a larger scale timetable change to implement but the passing at Barnham could be used on the Brighton to Southampton portion if it was lined up correctly especially as it is already on the Down side. I tried some basic timetabling and thought there was a 12 minute difference between a Stopper and a Fast between Brighton and Arundel Junction.
You could probably have a 4 trains per hour in the direction of the line Off-Peak with a Fast, a Stopper, a Stopper to Littlehampton and one to Portsmouth. There are also some trains from Victoria to Littlehampton which I assume are for Commuters so could be time dependent with the running of them with the Stopping pattern of the Fast changing in these times.
Having done formal timetable analysis of the West Coastway for NR, you'd need to do more than Basic timetabling to work it out. You might be able to do it in Excel (just), but really this level of Analysis needs an actual train planning package.
Have a look at the West Sussex CSMP (or connectivity study it might be called) on the Network Rail Long Term Planning Page. there's some discussion of this sort of problem in that paper.
 

Ste37

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Scarborough was served by trans pennine before sprinterisation. Liverpool to scarborough trains were hauled by mainly 45s with 40s 47s and the odd 25 before the service was replaced by sprinters
 

dk1

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Scarborough was served by trans pennine before sprinterisation. Liverpool to scarborough trains were hauled by mainly 45s with 40s 47s and the odd 25 before the service was replaced by sprinters

Even Scarborough to North Wales back then.
 
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My idea for a service change might sound wacky but I'd like to see Avanti to operate Brighton services from Manchester/Liverpool/Glasgow using voyagers and serving what used to be a regular "Cross London" route via Kensington Olympia. Two to five trains a day could run, diverting away from London Euston. This worked in the 80s under BR when a fistful of trains got sent away from Euston.. But I doubt we will ever see North to Brighton Services reintroduced in my lifetime.
 
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