Ideas/suggestions & other speculation for Okehampton / Exmouth lines

[507020]

I visited the line a few days ago and was surprised that all of the buildings and infrastructure at Meldon Viaduct have been abandoned and trashed.

When did this bit of the line stop operation because I've seen pictures of heritage stock running here?

Will this ever be a 'heritage Railway' again or is NR just going to take it over and fix it up?

Was sad seeing it in such state because the viaduct itself is lovely.

Thanks.

I visited Okehampton on the first day of the new GWR service. The heritage Dartmoor Railway previously ran services as far as Meldon Viaduct station, but not over the viaduct itself. It sadly went bust in 2020 due to the pandemic, as (not so sadly) did the line’s owner British American Rail Services Ltd of Chicago, which bought it from British Rail in 1994 and Network Rail was able to re-acquire it at a significantly discounted rate (likely £1) from its administrators. The viaduct is of unusual steel construction, rather than stone (originally being built as single track with doubling work carried out with trains still running over it!) giving it the disadvantage of corrosion and is therefore too weak to carry rail traffic. The most sensible option for reopening is to construct an all new Meldon viaduct alongside and retain the original as a parallel cycleway.

I think there's a bit of confusion here. The viaduct is, as has been said, out of use - it has no tracks, it is part of a shared use path and it isn't considered structurally sound to ever be used for trains again. It's perhaps the biggest individual obstacle in opening the line further towards Plymouth.

However, the line does still exist until just before the viaduct, with the shared path running alongside it rather than in its place. It is very much in use for freight operations from Meldon Quarry, which has seen increased use in recent years for HS2 ballast. There are clear remnants of the heritage railway operation at the former Meldon Viaduct station, including the platform with shelter, and signs and buildings indicating that a cafe and toilets were there in the recent past. Other than the platform itself it unfortunately looks very dilapidated despite being in use until very recently. I suspect vandalism has occurred. It is a great shame as in the summer months it probably gets more than enough passers-by to justify a cafe stop, even without the heritage trains running. Although the aforementioned increase in quarrying may be an obstacle as it is on the quarry works site.


In Geoff Marshall's video on the Okehampton reopening, a Dartmoor Railway Association representative states that they hope to be able to restart heritage services within a few years (at ~ 7:30):

Freight operations to the Southern Railway ballast quarry at Meldon ceased in 2011 when it closed. When the line as far as Okehampton was relaid last year, track workers found sections of rails laid by the L&SWR company dating from as long ago as 1908, which had still been in use for heavy freight operations until then!

Priority was given to reopening the line to passengers as quickly as possible and also to retaining the heritage aesthetic, so the single bidirectional track was of course rebuilt to the most modern standards, minus ballast from Meldon, although the platforms were not renumbered, with the bay platform being platform 1 and all trains to Exeter departing from what is platform 3 and the track was left extant through the other platforms albeit not connected to anything. The remaining ballast likely is from Meldon. I was told that the heritage Dartmoor Railway Association intends to restart heritage services between the bay platform and Meldon Viaduct shortly but this will require additional trackwork and that also the facing platforms do not meet modern standards needed for trains to pass, which would complicate doubling the line through the station.

 

[Brush 4]

What are the modern standards for trains to pass? Do the platforms at Okehampton need cutting back, then the tracks moved further apart? Is this only for new or reopened stations? Those WR spacious ex broad gauge stations are presumably exempted from this, clever chap that Brunel.......

 

[507020]

What are the modern standards for trains to pass? Do the platforms at Okehampton need cutting back, then the tracks moved further apart? Is this only for new or reopened stations? Those WR spacious ex broad gauge stations are presumably exempted from this, clever chap that Brunel.......

Of course Okehampton is an SR station deep inside (G)WR territory. The modern NR gauging standards are based on kinematic envelopes which are in essence everywhere the cross section of a train can possibly be at any given time relative to a section of track, so presumably these overlap at Okehampton. If the platforms were cut back to widen the trackbed, you could end up with problems breaching other standards, either with the kinematic envelope fouling the canopy or the platforms not being wide enough to meet the standard minimum width.

Anywhere on the (G)WR which was formerly 7’ Brunel gauge and converted to 4’ Stephenson gauge has ample space to play with and so doesn’t have this problem. Rather than being exempted they are merely compliant, or trivially easy to make so. There is likely space for a much needed passing loop on the St Ives branch, which was only ever laid in single track, albeit in broad gauge.

 

[michael74]

A few years ago I did a gwr weekend service to Oakhampton, then a bimble up the line behind a class 08 a wander over the viaduct and back, followed by a pasty and a bottle of Doombar on the platform, all very civilised, I do hope the heritage side can get running again, even just starting with a shunter and a Mk2 TSO or something.

 

[Surreytraveller]

Of course Okehampton is an SR station deep inside (G)WR territory. The modern NR gauging standards are based on kinematic envelopes which are in essence everywhere the cross section of a train can possibly be at any given time relative to a section of track, so presumably these overlap at Okehampton. If the platforms were cut back to widen the trackbed, you could end up with problems breaching other standards, either with the kinematic envelope fouling the canopy or the platforms not being wide enough to meet the standard minimum width.

Anywhere on the (G)WR which was formerly 7’ Brunel gauge and converted to 4’ Stephenson gauge has ample space to play with and so doesn’t have this problem. Rather than being exempted they are merely compliant, or trivially easy to make so. There is likely space for a much needed passing loop on the St Ives branch, which was only ever laid in single track, albeit in broad gauge.

I wouldn't say its deep inside GWR territory. North Atlantic was SR territory, south Atlantic was GWR territory. Its only just the wrong side of Exeter

 

[507020]

I wouldn't say its deep inside GWR territory. North Atlantic was SR territory, south Atlantic was GWR territory. Its only just the wrong side of Exeter

Try telling that to the BR(W) management who had it closed!

 

[Owencr905]

I visited Okehampton on the first day of the new GWR service. The heritage Dartmoor Railway previously ran services as far as Meldon Viaduct station, but not over the viaduct itself. It sadly went bust in 2020 due to the pandemic, as (not so sadly) did the line’s owner British American Rail Services Ltd of Chicago, which bought it from British Rail in 1994 and Network Rail was able to re-acquire it at a significantly discounted rate (likely £1) from its administrators. The viaduct is of unusual steel construction, rather than stone (originally being built as single track with doubling work carried out with trains still running over it!) giving it the disadvantage of corrosion and is therefore too weak to carry rail traffic. The most sensible option for reopening is to construct an all new Meldon viaduct alongside and retain the original as a parallel cycleway.

Freight operations to the Southern Railway ballast quarry at Meldon ceased in 2011 when it closed. When the line as far as Okehampton was relaid last year, track workers found sections of rails laid by the L&SWR company dating from as long ago as 1908, which had still been in use for heavy freight operations until then!

Priority was given to reopening the line to passengers as quickly as possible and also to retaining the heritage aesthetic, so the single bidirectional track was of course rebuilt to the most modern standards, minus ballast from Meldon, although the platforms were not renumbered, with the bay platform being platform 1 and all trains to Exeter departing from what is platform 3 and the track was left extant through the other platforms albeit not connected to anything. The remaining ballast likely is from Meldon. I was told that the heritage Dartmoor Railway Association intends to restart heritage services between the bay platform and Meldon Viaduct shortly but this will require additional trackwork and that also the facing platforms do not meet modern standards needed for trains to pass, which would complicate doubling the line through the station.

Thanks for that info

 

[Irascible]

I wouldn't say its deep inside GWR territory. North Atlantic was SR territory, south Atlantic was GWR territory. Its only just the wrong side of Exeter

Ah, the old GWR Falklands line... North Devon was mostly LSWR, but the GW got most of Cornwall.

I always got the feeling the LSWR weren't *completely* commited to west of Exeter other than possibly Ilfracombe, hence the somewhat quirky infrastructure.

 

[alf]

There tends to be a lot hearsay on the railway that is put out as fact.

For years Network Rail did not correct the hearsay that only tube trains would fit through the tunnel on the IOW.
Adrian Shooter took a tape measure into the tunnel & now high roof & very wide ex District line trains pass through every half hour.

What is the source for saying Meldon Viaduct is unfit for trains?
What is the source for saying Okehampton station cannot take two trains side by side?

I suspect it is the “Cannot be bothered” division of Network Rail.

Can someone from the “Can be bothered” sector of NR look into it please?

 

[507020]

Ah, the old GWR Falklands line... North Devon was mostly LSWR, but the GW got most of Cornwall.

I always got the feeling the LSWR weren't *completely* commited to west of Exeter other than possibly Ilfracombe, hence the somewhat quirky infrastructure.

I don’t see how the LSWR could be completely committed to west of Exeter without starting all out war with the GWR which saw everything in the triangle between Paddington, Penzance and Birkenhead Woodside as indisputably it’s territory!

 

[Irascible]

I don’t see how the LSWR could be completely committed to west of Exeter without starting all out war with the GWR which saw everything in the triangle between Paddington, Penzance and Birkenhead Woodside as indisputably it’s territory!

Plymouth was a very lucrative target but I think they gave up being the "main" service provider quite early. I hadn't noticed the SR rebuilt Okehampton in the 30s though, so the lack of space there is apparently their fault.

 

[bavvo]

Fun fact. The line from Exeter to Crediton (and on to Barnstaple) was originally built to broad gauge, and later converted to standard gauge after the LSWR took a controlling interest. Don't think broad gauge ever extended on the Okehamnpton part though, which came later.

 

[507020]

Plymouth was a very lucrative target but I think they gave up being the "main" service provider quite early. I hadn't noticed the SR rebuilt Okehampton in the 30s though, so the lack of space there is apparently their fault.

It’s a relatively modern SR building, but would they have bothered rebuilding the platforms and moving them too close together or would the original ones have just been left?

Fun fact. The line from Exeter to Crediton (and on to Barnstaple) was originally built to broad gauge, and later converted to standard gauge after the LSWR took a controlling interest. Don't think broad gauge ever extended on the Okehamnpton part though, which came later.

Of course all broad gauge track on the GWR was converted to standard gauge by 1892, so did this conversion of Exeter - Crediton happen earlier or separately. Trains would certainly have run on dual gauge track through Exeter before then. Also was it ever broad gauge to Ilfracombe or was this always standard gauge?

 

[MarkyT]

For years Network Rail did not correct the hearsay that only tube trains would fit through the tunnel on the IOW.

NR had no need say anything to the general public or enthusiast community until a serious rolling stock replacement proposal came up that raised the issue. The former restriction was in a non-public area that couldn't be seen deep inside Ryde tunnel. It was local authority road reconstruction that eventually removed the height limitation after their earlier work created it in the first place following the introduction of the first tube profile stock.

What is the source for saying Meldon Viaduct is unfit for trains?

A now unique listed iron structure with a current leisure use, that nevertheless might be possible to refurbish for a limited slow rail service (say) with light DMU vehicles. I doubt that would be suitable for all possible uses of a reinstated route to Plymouth however, with potential speed and tonnage involved.

What is the source for saying Okehampton station cannot take two trains side by side?

I wonder if there are some crossed wires here. There may simply be a desire to keep National Rail and heritage operations apart in the station area. Use of the bay instead of the second through platform is possible and clearly achieves the segregation, meaning even when attending to rolling stock faults, heritage staff should never have to get down on the track foul of NR traffic. Limited clearance between running lines can usually be tackled by reducing permitted speed, limiting the side-to-side sway component of the passing vehicles' kinematic envelopes.

 

[Gloster]

Exeter-Bideford was opened as broad-gauge in 1851-1855, mixed gauge by 1863 and standard only by 1877.

 

[Irascible]

And to answer the other bit, Ilfracombe was always standard gauge, and I presume the Torrington-Bideford bit was too, although I can't remember for sure. The history of the Barnstaple line and it's deals is well worth a dig. Perhaps someone can provide the history of Meldon Quarry up to today, to tie back into the opening post.

Given the splitting & joining that went on at Okehampton you'd have thought a rebuild would have been generous with trackbed space.

 

[Deafdoggie]

What is the source for saying Okehampton station cannot take two trains side by side?

I suspect it's more to do with it being expensive work and not really necessary to check. Therefore, until it is checked, trains can't pass. There's no need to pass trains at Okehampton so it would be a total waste of money checking to see if they could.

 

[zwk500]

For years Network Rail did not correct the hearsay that only tube trains would fit through the tunnel on the IOW.

Why would NR correct something it had never said?

What is the source for saying Meldon Viaduct is unfit for trains?

A Structural Engineer's report from 1990.

 

[tbwbear]

Plymouth was a very lucrative target but I think they gave up being the "main" service provider quite early. I hadn't noticed the SR rebuilt Okehampton in the 30s though, so the lack of space there is apparently their fault.

The LSWR and GWR competition to Plymouth was at its height roughly between 1890 (when the direct LSWR line from Lydford to Plymouth was completed) and 1907 (when the GWR line was shortened by the "Berks and Hants" cut off route). City of Truro's "alleged" 100mph and the fatal Salisbury rail crash both involved Plymouth boat trains during this period. The competition was actually pretty costly to both companies and in 1910 they signed a pooling agreement to share reciepts on all competitive routes west of Exeter. The agreement was for 90 years, but the war intervened and then grouping. The SR certainly gave up competing on London to Plymouth / west of Exeter.

Best times (from London) to Plymouth - on LSWR/GWR

1878 - 6.55/6.15
1893 - 5.23/5.38
1907 - 4.47/4.07
1914 - 4.56/4.07
1958 - 5.10/4.00

to Exeter (where the LSWR/ SR put up more of a fight)

1878 - 4.15/4.15
1893 - 3.46/4.05
1907 - 3.14/3.00
1914 - 3.14/3.00
1958 - 3.05/2.52

(Source = J Simmons - SW v GW Railway Competition in Devon and Cornwall /Journal of Transport History 1959)

 

[Brush 4]

This kinetic envelope rule or in English, swaying trains, must only apply to new or reopened stations, otherwise hundreds of double track stations would need very expensive rebuilding to widen them. At Okehampton, the DMU crawls in and out slowly on brand new track so, swaying must be non existent. P2 would only have even slower heritage trains. What are the realistic chances of 2 slow moving trains hitting each other when for over a hundred years, they didn't.

Same applies to all of the existing double or 4 track stations, (where an express passes a stopper). Logically, if the risk is so great, all 2, 3 and 4 track main lines would have to be widened., even away from platforms. (except former broad gauge)

 

[Lucan]

The LSWR and GWR competition to Plymouth was at its height roughly between 1890.... City of Truro's "alleged" 100mph and the fatal Salisbury rail crash both involved Plymouth boat trains during this period. The competition was actually pretty costly to both companies and in 1910 they signed a pooling agreement to share reciepts on all competitive routes west of Exeter.

The competion involved carrying the passengers and mail disembarked from trans-Atlantic liners which had hove to off Plymouth. The train got you quicker to London than remaining on the ship, and passengers could pay a premium for this option. I understand that there was already an agreement, even during that height of competition, that the GWR took the mail and the LSWR took the passengers.

 

[tbwbear]

The competion involved carrying the passengers and mail disembarked from trans-Atlantic liners which had hove to off Plymouth. The train was faster way to London than remaining on the ship, and passengers could pay a premium for this option. I understand that there was already an agreement, even during that height of competion, that the GWR took the mail and the LSWR took the passengers.

The Great Western certainly held the GPO contract for the mails. The LSWR certainly had an agreement with the American Line for its passengers, not sure if the GWR ever conveyed passengers from other ships or whether the lines agreed between themselves, they may have done. The ship's arrival was unpredicatable and the trains ran at all hours. On the night of the Salisbury crash the train had left Plymouth at 11pm.

 

[Falcon1200]

What is the source for saying Meldon Viaduct is unfit for trains?
What is the source for saying Okehampton station cannot take two trains side by side?

I suspect it is the “Cannot be bothered” division of Network Rail.

Does NR actually own Meldon Viaduct, and the route from Okehampton ? Regardless, until there is a realistic prospect of either seeing trains again there is no justification for NR diverting resources from its day job.

 

[BasildonBob]

Does NR actually own Meldon Viaduct, and the route from Okehampton ? Regardless, until there is a realistic prospect of either seeing trains again there is no justification for NR diverting resources from its day job.

It's owned by the Meldon Viaduct Company, a not-for-profit company and registered charity responsible for safeguarding the structure.

MELDON VIADUCT COMPANY LIMITED - Charity 1084844

Charity details for MELDON VIADUCT COMPANY LIMITED - Charity 1084844

register-of-charities.charitycommission.gov.uk

 

[Bald Rick]

What is the source for saying Meldon Viaduct is unfit for trains?

it was restricted to low axle weight traffic for some time until…

A Structural Engineer's report from 1990.

and it won’t have got any stronger in the intervening 32 years.

 

[Invincible]

I think there's a bit of confusion here. The viaduct is, as has been said, out of use - it has no tracks, it is part of a shared use path and it isn't considered structurally sound to ever be used for trains again. It's perhaps the biggest individual obstacle in opening the line further towards Plymouth.

However, the line does still exist until just before the viaduct, with the shared path running alongside it rather than in its place. It is very much in use for freight operations from Meldon Quarry, which has seen increased use in recent years for HS2 ballast. There are clear remnants of the heritage railway operation at the former Meldon Viaduct station, including the platform with shelter, and signs and buildings indicating that a cafe and toilets were there in the recent past. Other than the platform itself it unfortunately looks very dilapidated despite being in use until very recently. I suspect vandalism has occurred. It is a great shame as in the summer months it probably gets more than enough passers-by to justify a cafe stop, even without the heritage trains running. Although the aforementioned increase in quarrying may be an obstacle as it is on the quarry works site.


In Geoff Marshall's video on the Okehampton reopening, a Dartmoor Railway Association representative states that they hope to be able to restart heritage services within a few years (at ~ 7:30):

Looks like the DRA reported and published photos of some tidying at Meldon and work on the heritage stock recently. https://www.dartmoor-railway-association.org/wip

 

[tomm]

Is Bow railway station going to open between Crediton and Okehampton to allow the hourly service for the May timetable after the 25th April to 9th May engineering works.

 

[Cowley]

Is Bow railway station going to open between Crediton and Okehampton to allow the hourly service for the May timetable after the 25th April to 9th May engineering works.

I don’t believe there’s any plans to reopen Bow in the immediate future.

 

[Cliveblackpool]

The North viaduct was in use as a head shunt for the quarry, until the 1990's,when it as declared unsafe. The timber decking needed replacing. This was the strongest viaduct.
The South viaduct had its decking replaced with a concrete decking for use by 50 ton stone lorries in the building of Meldon dam starting 1970. Now part of the Granite Way.
A lot of ballast is required for HS2, - several trains a day could be moving stone from Meldon Quarry in the next few years.
Another good reason for the track replacement?
Edit - Ribbleshead Viaduct was also condemned by British Rail, too expensive to repair!!

 

[tomm]

I don’t believe there’s any plans to reopen Bow in the immediate future.

Where will the tracks pass if it's not at Bow?