Ideas to replace the Newark Flat Crossing!

[Jorge Da Silva]

Hello, I wanted to see what Ideas people have to replace the Newark Flat Crossing which is a massive capacity issue for east-west connectivity between Lincoln and Nottingham.

 

[The Planner]

Apart from those already investigated by NR? grade separation is the only thing.

 

[Jorge Da Silva]

Something like this? ECML tunnels under the Nottingham-Lincoln line which allows the curve to be retained which would otherwise have to be replaced.

 

[Polarbear]

Would there be enough space for the ECML to tunnel under the Lincoln line? It would have to drop fairly steeply from the north end of Northgate station to get under the Trent.

May be easier to build a flyover for the Nottingham-Lincoln line.

 

[swt_passenger]

View attachment 66503

Something like this? ECML tunnels under the Nottingham-Lincoln line which allows the curve to be retained which would otherwise have to be replaced.

I’d check the position of the river, locks and roads before going much further. I think of the theoretical four possible options the only practical solution is to lift the Lincoln line over the ECML.

 

[Jorge Da Silva]

Would there be enough space for the ECML to tunnel under the Lincoln line? It would have to drop fairly steeply from the north end of Northgate station to get under the Trent.

May be easier to build a flyover for the Nottingham-Lincoln line.

Maybe.

 

[Bald Rick]

Hello, I wanted to see what Ideas people have to replace the Newark Flat Crossing which is a massive capacity issue for east-west connectivity between Lincoln and Nottingham.

It’s being replaced, in 3 weeks time!

As others have said, the only option is to put Nottingham to Lincoln on a flyover. Any other option requires a much longer bridge (to get over the Trent) or involves very wet ground.

In any event, how much of a capacity issue is it, really?

 

[Jorge Da Silva]

It’s being replaced, in 3 weeks time!

As others have said, the only option is to put Nottingham to Lincoln on a flyover. Any other option requires a much longer bridge (to get over the Trent) or involves very wet ground.

In any event, how much of a capacity issue is it, really?

The flat crossing means that only 1 train per hour between Nottingham and Lincoln and effectively means that Lincoln cannot get a Birmingham service without extending the existing Leicester service. It is the only direct link between Lincolnshire and East Midlands directly otherwise you'd have to go via Retford and head via Sheffield which is a bit of a detour

 

[HSTEd]

The flat crossing means that only 1 train per hour between Nottingham and Lincoln and effectively means that Lincoln cannot get a Birmingham service without extending the existing Leicester service. It is the only direct link between Lincolnshire and East Midlands directly otherwise you'd have to go via Retford and head via Sheffield which is a bit of a detour

Last I checked Grantham is still in Lincolnshire, although I admit that the government in Lincoln seems to forget about us an awful lot.......

 

[Bald Rick]

The flat crossing means that only 1 train per hour between Nottingham and Lincoln and effectively means that Lincoln cannot get a Birmingham service without extending the existing Leicester service. It is the only direct link between Lincolnshire and East Midlands directly otherwise you'd have to go via Retford and head via Sheffield which is a bit of a detour

But there at least 2, often 4 or more, spare paths an hour E<>W across the flat crossing. Why does spending a couple of hundred million on a flyover make a difference?

 

[Ianno87]

The flat crossing means that only 1 train per hour between Nottingham and Lincoln and effectively means that Lincoln cannot get a Birmingham service without extending the existing Leicester service. It is the only direct link between Lincolnshire and East Midlands directly otherwise you'd have to go via Retford and head via Sheffield which is a bit of a detour

1, usually two carriage, train per hour? Lengthening existing trains seems more sensible before expensive grade seaparation.

A second train per hour of course runs west of Newark Castle, helping through Lincoln services be faster by missing stops towards Nottingham.

 

[30907]

The flat crossing means that only 1 train per hour between Nottingham and Lincoln and effectively means that Lincoln cannot get a Birmingham service without extending the existing Leicester service.

...or running via Derby.

 

[Kite159]

But there at least 2, often 4 or more, spare paths an hour E<>W across the flat crossing. Why does spending a couple of hundred million on a flyover make a difference?

Increase line speed for the ECML for trains not calling at Newark?

 

[Bald Rick]

Increase line speed for the ECML for trains not calling at Newark?

That’s one reason, certainly. It only saves 6 seconds though.

 

[bspahh]

It’s being replaced, in 3 weeks time!

https://twitter.com/nrairops/status/1253598986759483392 is from National Rail Air Operations. It says:
"So yesterday whilst carrying out a survey of the ECML we passed Newark and as promised I managed to replicate the photo of the new formation. "

 

[Midnight Sun]

A bridge should have been built at the same time as the A46 Newark By-Pass

 

[yorksrob]

https://twitter.com/nrairops/status/1253598986759483392 is from National Rail Air Operations. It says:
"So yesterday whilst carrying out a survey of the ECML we passed Newark and as promised I managed to replicate the photo of the new formation. "

That would make a good avatar !

 

[TheBigD]

Deleted

 

[TheBigD]

The flat crossing means that only 1 train per hour between Nottingham and Lincoln and effectively means that Lincoln cannot get a Birmingham service without extending the existing Leicester service. It is the only direct link between Lincolnshire and East Midlands directly otherwise you'd have to go via Retford and head via Sheffield which is a bit of a detour

Last I checked Grantham is still in Lincolnshire, although I admit that the government in Lincoln seems to forget about us an awful lot.......

As is Stamford...

 

[HSTEd]

As is Stamford...

Off topic but maybe it is time for Kesteven to have it's status restored!

On topic, the journey time savings from replacing the crossing seem rather small, especially in a post HS2 era when it is likely all trains will be stopping at Newark Northgate regardless.
It seems likely that spending resources on alternative schemes in the region, for example a Newark Castle-Nottingham tram train would be a considerably more productive way to spend the money required.

 

[grumpyoldman01]

Isn't there something in the EMR franchise agreement which limits east/west services to one simultaneous crossing each way each hour?

The need to "do something" has been known for years, and - if I remember correctly - Beeching included closure of the route in his first report, but keeping the line which was used by Grantham - Lincoln services open instead as a direct route between Nottingham and Lincoln.

Construction of a flyover at Newark would be costly as it would also require a new Trent Viaduct for the Nottingham - Lincoln line; from memory of what I remember from passing by on a train and by looking at maps, access to the site also looks very restricted.

Would a better option be to restore the former LD&ECR route between High Marnham and Pyewipe Junction? The spans of the viaduct actually over the Trent at Fledborough were renewed by BR. This route could take east/west freight traffic away from the Newark crossing, and a Birmingham - Lincoln service via Derby, Sutton/Mansfield, and the former LD&ECR route could be established; I don't know how the journey time would compare with a theoretical one via Derby and Nottingham, but the potential for such a service to generate traffic in the Sutton/Mansfield area (which has a combined population of about 170,000) must be considerable. Something like the existing pattern of services in the Nottingham - Newark - Lincoln line could then be retained.

There was a connection between Newark Castle and ECML northbound south of the crossing at one time, but although some of the route seems still to be in existence, a replacement Trent viaduct would be needed and there are some buildings in the way of its restoration (like a Homebase); if this route was to be restored, an alternative route across the ECML could be established using a ladder. This would eliminate the actual flat crossing (and presumably the speed restriction on the ECML), but wouldn't eliminate the need for actual crossing movements over the ECML on the level.

So the only options I can see are to keep the status quo and accept the operating constraints it brings, construct a flyover/Trent viaduct for the Nottingham - Lincoln line at Newark to replace the flat crossing (this would possibly need to rebuild the A46 road bridge as well) as has been often suggested (costly), or to think completely outside the box and look at options like re-opening the old LD&ECR to take traffic away from the former MR route (also costly). I don't think a tunnel for the ECML is an option as it would need to go beneath two waterways as well as the Nottingham - Lincoln line, and road bridges obstruct an embankment/bridges substitute for the rail tunnel route.

 

[Meerkat]

You lot lack ambition - I am going for a whole new station!
Northgate closes, with a new two level station north of the Lincoln road.
Would need combining with A46 improvements and a large scale redevelopment plan for the area (which will upset the people whose new houses I will be demolishing).....and a massive train full of cash.
But...takes timetabling restrictions away and increases connections without needing the Lincoln-Northgate shuttles.
I can dream can’t I?

 

[stuu]

It looks wrong on a map and as an idea but this would need a significant viaduct and probably cost ~£80-100m. How much are the benefits worth?

 

[Ianno87]

Isn't there something in the EMR franchise agreement which limits east/west services to one simultaneous crossing each way each hour?
.

That's just DfT stating that any franchise bid offering more than this would be deemed non-compliant. Basically because it would be an unrealistic assumption to plan franchise forecasts on given the lack of capacity across the crossing (otherwise, you could see the obvious revenue target of say a half-hourly Nottingham-Lincoln service)

In theory, EMR could bid to NR for additional paths over and above the franchise requirement if they believe any exist (unlikely given future ECML requirements which will always win) and there is an economic case for them.

Best bet would be making Nottingham-Newark hourly and then making Nottingham-Lincoln a genuinely fast service, calling Newark Castle only (with the villages generally picked up in the Nottingham-Newark or Newark NG-Lincoln services)

 

[Meerkat]

That's just DfT stating that any franchise bid offering more than this would be deemed non-compliant. Basically because it would be an unrealistic assumption to plan franchise forecasts on given the lack of capacity across the crossing (otherwise, you could see the obvious revenue target of say a half-hourly Nottingham-Lincoln service)

In theory, EMR could bid to NR for additional paths over and above the franchise requirement if they believe any exist (unlikely given future ECML requirements which will always win) and there is an economic case for them.

Best bet would be making Nottingham-Newark hourly and then making Nottingham-Lincoln a genuinely fast service, calling Newark Castle only (with the villages generally picked up in the Nottingham-Newark or Newark NG-Lincoln services)

That would mean the Lincoln side villages had no way to Nottingham other than via Lincoln.

 

[tbtc]

I'd be fine with something being built if there was a good business case, but there's surely scope to extend the current hourly Sprinter to something four/six coaches long before getting the crayons out.

This feels like an East Midlands version of Castlefield, where there's an easy solution (extend the current two coach trains, ensure that nothing through the bottleneck is shorter than 100m long) and a complicated expensive long term crayonista solution (new viaducts, new platforms, grade separation, shifting an entire freight terminal etc), and it's obvious which version the majority of posters would prefer. Keep it simple, eh?

1, usually two carriage, train per hour? Lengthening existing trains seems more sensible before expensive grade seaparation

This post from last summer sums things up for me.

How much demand is there going to be, even if there was no conflicts at Newark? Maybe extend the (currently ex-Matlock) Nottingham - Newark service through to Lincoln? You're presumably not going to replace any of the Northgate - Lincoln services (since you'd lose the London trains/connections). Or is anyone seriously talking three/four trains per hour from Lincoln to Nottingham?

So really it'd be a case of spending millions (tens of millions or hundreds of millions, I don't know) on some mega-solution (given the lack of space, the river, the undersoil conditions, the A46, space for the spur from Northgate to join etc) for the sake of a second path per hour?

I've seen Birmingham mentioned but what guarantee is there that there'd be a Birmingham service? Given the clock-face world we live in, you're not going to see through trains to each of Leicester/ Derby/ Birmingham.

Or is this one of those situations where there's a reasonable population (but spread out over a wide area) to the east and a number of destinations to the west and we kind of feel that Something Must Be Done but there's no real consensus on what that would be?

 

[Railwaysceptic]

I'd be fine with something being built if there was a good business case, but there's surely scope to extend the current hourly Sprinter to something four/six coaches long before getting the crayons out. . . . .

. . . I've seen Birmingham mentioned but what guarantee is there that there'd be a Birmingham service? Given the clock-face world we live in, you're not going to see through trains to each of Leicester/ Derby/ Birmingham.

Or is this one of those situations where there's a reasonable population (but spread out over a wide area) to the east and a number of destinations to the west and we kind of feel that Something Must Be Done but there's no real consensus on what that would be?

Given that post No.10 informs us that there are at least two spare paths an hour, I'd have thought a good opening theory would have been one train an hour from Lincoln all stops to Matlock and one fast train stopping only at Newark Castle, Nottingham, Leicester, Birmingham New Street and continuing south-west to somewhere like Gloucester.

 

[HSTEd]

e was no conflicts at Newark? Maybe extend the (currently ex-Matlock) Nottingham - Newark service through to Lincoln? You're presumably not going to replace any of the Northgate - Lincoln services (since you'd lose the London trains/connections). Or is anyone seriously talking three/four trains per hour from Lincoln to Nottingham?

Well I like to suggest it, but I'm proposing ~33-43m tram trains.
And whether its wise to put them all the way to Lincoln is an open question as opposed to just to Newark Castle.

But honestly I think this problem solves itself once HS2 arrives and guts the ECML fast service.
Or on a tram train you could just have a short Newark Tramway to avoid the crossing.

 

[Ianno87]

That would mean the Lincoln side villages had no way to Nottingham other than via Lincoln.

Correct (or a walk across Newark).

Given that demand from Lincoln to Nortingham will far exceed demand from the villages, it's a reasonable trade off. (Though peak calls and odd inter-peak calls could be kept. Collingham possibly worth keeping as it is decently used and at least saves Swinderby/Hykeham-ites from doubling back via Lincoln or crossing Newark).

On a constrained railway, it is unreasonable to keep insisting on prioritising minority flows to the detriment of the majority.

 

[TheBigD]

Given that post No.10 informs us that there are at least two spare paths an hour, I'd have thought a good opening theory would have been one train an hour from Lincoln all stops to Matlock and one fast train stopping only at Newark Castle, Nottingham, Leicester, Birmingham New Street and continuing south-west to somewhere like Gloucester.

Currently there may be spare paths across Newark Flat Crossing but from December 2021 the ECML services will increase to 8 paths each hour to/from Kings Cross.

(7.5 paths an hour each way across with the flat crossing and the remaining 0.5 path being the Lincoln-Kings Cross which doesn't actually use the flat crossing)