Identity Cards

[AlterEgo]

Inspired by this thread.

Discuss.

 

[ForTheLoveOf]

I think ID cards make a lot of sense. There are people who say they aren't necessary because you can just use a provisional driving licence. However, there are a number of unfortunate people whose medical conditions do not let them to drive and so this is not a viable option for them.

Perhaps driving licences should be combined with this ID card - such that everyone can get an ID card for a small fee (nowhere near the extortionate passport fee!), and those that can drive get an additional qualification on it that they are a provisional/full/motorbike/lorry etc. licence-holder.

 

[Domh245]

It's an odd one. I severely dislike the idea of being forced to carry one around at all times and penalties if you don't, but there should be a scheme whereby anyone can get one for the cost of making and posting it, especially with the Government looking to roll out voter ID checks at polling stations. I suppose that makes me an "optional" voter but at the same time I find myself swayed to compulsory without penalties.

 

[EM2]

Could we have a 'Don't really mind' option?
If they're introduced, then I don't mind having one, but I don't think that it causes any major issues not having them.

 

[Bletchleyite]

To me the easiest option that is unlikely to annoy anyone is to make the DVLA able to issue, at cost, a driving licence containing no driving entitlement using existing processes and systems to anyone who does not, for whatever reason, hold an actual driving licence (as the present licences use red and green, this one could be blue to clearly differentiate it). Then anyone who has no passport or driving licence can choose to acquire one to make their life easier.

I believe it's common for US states to do this.

OK, you can't travel internationally on such a card, but that's no killer.

The other option would be to introduce a "passport card" but that has other difficulties and may be no use after Brexit anyway.

 

[Warwick]

Issue a national identity card and expect people to carry it?
Dream on!

 

[Starmill]

As with all policy this must be driven by outcomes.

What are the problems we face? People who can't get access to ID for useful purposes like going to a bar? Possibly but is the main barrier not cost? Perhaps working to reduce the cost of passport applications (a passport application now costs more than a shotgun license, something which requires a home visit by a police officer!) would be a better place to focus our efforts?

People can't / don't identify themselves in public just because? I'm not sure how or why this might be a problem.

Voter fraud? There is no real evidence of this here.

Not entitled to a driving license or a passport? This could be a bit of a problem for some people, but there are Citizencards for a limited range of uses.

Maybe there are good reasons for a national ID scheme I have never considered, but none pop into my mind just now.

A National ID card scheme could replace driving licenses of course, with part of the card able to denote your driving 'status'.

If the fees for these documents can be reduced that would make this rather more practical.

 

[Bletchleyite]

A passport is a faff to carry whatever the cost as it's not credit card sized - I tend to carry my driving licence as ID, but were I not able to drive e.g. for medical reasons a non-driving driving licence would be a very useful thing.

 

[Tetchytyke]

The idea of ID cards is usually floated every now and again by the same sort of people who demand a "hostile environment" for anyone who has dark-coloured skin immigrants.

It's not about making life easier for people who do have it, it's about making life more difficult for people who do not. Always has been.

And I speak as a British national who, without my British passport, would not be able to prove my right to live and work in Britain.

 

[radamfi]

It would be useful so that you don't need to carry around your passport around the EU.

 

[Bletchleyite]

It would be useful so that you don't need to carry around your passport around the EU.

...for about a year.

 

[AlterEgo]

And I speak as a British national who, without my British passport, would not be able to prove my right to live and work in Britain.

Don't you have a birth certificate? Were you not born here?

 

[radamfi]

Don't you have a birth certificate? Were you not born here?

If you are born after 1983, being born in the UK isn't enough.

 

[Tetchytyke]

Don't you have a birth certificate? Were you not born here?

My birth certificate is from another country.

Also, as @radamfi points out, anyone born after 31 December 1982 would not automatically get British citizenship just by being born here.

 

[AM9]

Don't you have a birth certificate? Were you not born here?

But a birth certificate doesn't include photo ID (for rather obvious reasons, the picture would be somewhat out of date), and as a paper document, it could be subject to fraud.

Personally, I think that a photo ID based on the Photo Driving Licence but issued either by an authority separate from the DVLA or for the DVLA to become a non-specific agency would be acceptable. As for the need to carry, that should be up to the holder other than for certain specific activities, e.g. anything where it is stipulated for identity verification (internal flights, job centre business etc.). If the holder is asked to produce it by law enforcement agencies, there should:

a) be an option to present it within a period of time
or
b) if there is an urgent need to establish ID, then a law enforcement officer would be able to view an electronic copy held by the issuing authority by way of a carried viewer (smartphone). A police smartphone could also take a picture for later verification.​

Mandating carrying them would bring so many connotations particularly with older people, that it would probably prevent their viability altogether.

 

[keppoch69]

I said yes to this when we were discussing the issue as a country a few years ago. I like the present format of driving licence cards and would extend that to include an age verification system with it as well.
I am thinking for self service check outs and such. Perhaps that would need to piggy onto fingerprint recognition technology or iris scanning? I do find dealing with machines more calming, than moody or "uppity" humans to be honest.

 

[class387]

I was caught without an ID card by an armed police officer in Beijing, China once. Pretty terrifying.

 

[Puffing Devil]

I'm one of the few people in the UK who actually had a UK Government ID card, before the scheme was repealed.

For me it was great for travelling around Europe and saved me having two passports; also very handy for those times when you do need to show who you are - collecting items from the post office, some transactions in banks to name two.

I'd have one again with no reservations, so long as it works for European borders.

 

[Bromley boy]

No. Definitely not in favour of ID cards.

I don’t want the state having any more information about me than strictly necessary and being required to carry/produce ID on demand smacks of a police state to me. If carrying them was only optional it’s difficult to see the point.

Driving licence/passport should suffice for most people surely.

 

[AM9]

No. Definitely not in favour of ID cards.

I don’t want the state having any more information about me than strictly necessary and being required to carry/produce ID on demand smacks of a police state to me. If carrying them was only optional it’s difficult to see the point.

Driving licence/passport should suffice for most people surely.

So what information do you think an ID card would carry that a driving licence/passport doesn't?

 

[hexagon789]

I believe it's common for US states to do this.

They do, I think you basically need them in order to vote.

 

[Bromley boy]

So what information do you think an ID card would carry that a driving licence/passport doesn't?

Probably none. But a passport/driving licence are documents with specific purposes which happen to be useful as forms of ID.

There’s something subtley different about a specific ID document which serves no other purpose than proving the identity of the bearer.

 

[hexagon789]

I'd rather just have an optional scheme if even we were to have one at all. I find it just as easy to have a driving licence or passport for identification purposes.

 

[GB]

I don’t mind a voluntary scheme but they should not be compulsory....carrying one should definitely not be compulsory. Pretty sure a certain government did that back in the 1940’s.

 

[AlterEgo]

I don’t mind a voluntary scheme but they should not be compulsory....carrying one should definitely not be compulsory. Pretty sure a certain government did that back in the 1940’s.

The British government?

 

[Lucan]

Driving licence/passport should suffice for most people surely.

25% of the people in my immediate family circle have neither. My sister-in-law had to apply for a provisional driving licence in order to open a bank account, even though she does not drive and never will. I consider this situation idiotic.

I have opened (or tried to) several bank accounts recently as I was moving money around looking for best interest rates. Every time I have to take a wad of documents (Council Tax bills, previous bank statements, driving licence, utility bills etc) into the bank to try to prove who I am despite having been born and lived in UK all my life. I have been refused twice because there were "disparities" in the addresses. For example my county being "Monmouthshire" on some documents and "Gwent" (a previous name) on others, and the fact that the road I live on has no name. Post Office Savings was one refusal and you'd think that they of all people would understand addresses, and the Principality Building Society could only open an account for me after a senior manager managed to "trick" their computer. They say "Sorry, but our computer just rejects it". I even take a letter I obtained from my local council stating what my official address is, and confirming that my road has no name, but if it is different from the bank's database (that they buy from God knows where) it's no-go.

An ID card should be definitive and cut through these shenanigans and paperwork.

 

[Bromley boy]

25% of the people in my immediate family circle have neither. My sister-in-law had to apply for a provisional driving licence in order to open a bank account, even though she does not drive and never will. I consider this situation idiotic.

Thing is, if the ID card scheme was voluntary, you’d presumably have to go through the motions of applying for it and then apply for a driving licence or passport separately.

I have opened (or tried to) several bank accounts recently as I was moving money around looking for best interest rates. Every time I have to take a wad of documents (Council Tax bills, previous bank statements, driving licence, utility bills etc) into the bank to try to prove who I am despite having been born and lived in UK all my life. I have been refused twice because there were "disparities" in the addresses. For example my county being "Monmouthshire" on some documents and "Gwent" (a previous name) on others, and the fact that the road I live on has no name. Post Office Savings was one refusal and you'd think that they of all people would understand addresses, and the Principality Building Society could only open an account for me after a senior manager managed to "trick" their computer. They say "Sorry, but our computer just rejects it". I even take a letter I obtained from my local council stating what my official address is, and confirming that my road has no name, but if it is different from the bank's database (that they buy from God knows where) it's no-go.

I suspect this might be more to do with anti money laundering regs, proceeds of crime act etc.

I’m not convinced any of this would necessarily be less onerous if we had an ID card scheme. Presumably these could be faked by criminals and therefore wouldn’t really give you anything that a passport wouldn’t? It would just be one more form of photo ID.

 

[Domh245]

Driving licence/passport should suffice for most people surely.

As noted, driving licence can't be issued to everyone, and passports do cost a fair bit. I remember arguing with someone about voter ID and they said something along the lines of "a passport is only £70 and for 10 years, it's only £7 a year, which is quite reasonable" having failed to realise that £70 is an awful lot of money for some people and could be the difference between eating that week, or paying for electricity. If the Government is going to press ahead with voter ID laws then they must ensure that it doesn't disenfranchise anyone - it costs nothing to vote now, so why should it have to cost £34 (provisional driving licence, assuming you can get one) to vote in the future. A £5/£10* ID card with little more information than a driving licence, ie Name, Address, DOB, signature and a photo would fix that issue, and at that sort of price it should be affordable, and if you cannot afford it, then the cost can be waived. Disenfranchising voters is a dirty underhand move.

Hell, having done a little bit of research something similar already exists in the form of ValidateUK cards and CitizenCard. Make them an official document, cut the price a little (and ability to waive the cost for low income) and you're halfway there. You don't have to force everyone to get one if they've already got a driving licence or passport, but it is there for the occasions when you can't get or afford the other more traditional options.

*to cover the cost of processing, printing, and posting and no more, there'd be no need to add you to a database or anything.

PS, don't forget to take your ID with you to vote on Thursday, assuming that you live and are voting in the Bromley local elections.

 

[AM9]

... *to cover the cost of processing, printing, and posting and no more, there'd be no need to add you to a database or anything. ...

Well actually there is a need to create a database entry as:

1) if you lost (or failed to receive) your card, you would need to go through the whole rigmarole again
2) it would reduce the incidence of fraudulent applications with the same documents and a different picture
3) it would reduce fraud or mistakes by the issuing office

The backup of the databse would only confirm that you had been issued a card against the tendered documentary proof.

 

[Bromley boy]

As noted, driving licence can't be issued to everyone, and passports do cost a fair bit. I remember arguing with someone about voter ID and they said something along the lines of "a passport is only £70 and for 10 years, it's only £7 a year, which is quite reasonable" having failed to realise that £70 is an awful lot of money for some people and could be the difference between eating that week, or paying for electricity. If the Government is going to press ahead with voter ID laws then they must ensure that it doesn't disenfranchise anyone - it costs nothing to vote now, so why should it have to cost £34 (provisional driving licence, assuming you can get one) to vote in the future. A £5/£10* ID card with little more information than a driving licence, ie Name, Address, DOB, signature and a photo would fix that issue, and at that sort of price it should be affordable, and if you cannot afford it, then the cost can be waived. Disenfranchising voters is a dirty underhand move.

Hell, having done a little bit of research something similar already exists in the form of ValidateUK cards and CitizenCard. Make them an official document, cut the price a little (and ability to waive the cost for low income) and you're halfway there. You don't have to force everyone to get one if they've already got a driving licence or passport, but it is there for the occasions when you can't get or afford the other more traditional options.

Fair point about the cost of a passport. Although I can’t help but think the number of people who can’t afford a passport and can’t obtain/don’t want a driving licence must be vanishingly small. I guess an ID scheme would cost what it costs and the question is how that cost is apportioned between the taxpayer and the applicant.

Might the same thing be achieved (for less cost) by simply subsidising the cost of passports? These have the advantage of not needing to be changed every time someone moves, as they don’t contain address details.

PS, don't forget to take your ID with you to vote on Thursday, assuming that you live and are voting in the Bromley local elections.

I grew up there (Beckenham to be precise), now live a little further into town, so no longer on the Bromley electoral role. I’m back there quite a bit, though, as my folks are still there.