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IEP - Hitatchi making good out of a bad spec?

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route:oxford

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Yes, Network Rail use the Mark 5 dimensions as a profile for their tracks design. Also we would have had 155 mph trains running back in 1995, using the mark 5 and class 93 loco. But as normal, the Government wouldn't stump the cash up. But loves lavishly tax payers cash on foreign train builders now?!

And now would have been coming up to 20 years old. Pounding by a heavy locomotive would have resulted in designs being sought to mitigate track damage.

The need for more passenger space would push the logical conclusion of a distributed traction system with passengers in leading vehicles.

The regular need to go off-wire and ideal to have a flexible diagram opportunity would bring us back to bimode IEP or similar.

If we didn't already have it in a bimode Meridian...
 
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RAGNARØKR

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Just been leant the latest copy of Modern Railways by my father and read the article on the mock up of the IEP. It would seem that with a few exceptions Hitatchi are doing the best job they can with a bad spec from the DFT. Seems that station dwell times will not be improved due the the tapering required and the narrow gangways that will result. Also the high floors because of the obsession with bi-mode isn't going to be great for those of us that are taller and the windows also look very low down so another train where you can't see where you are if standing up. I'm still not convinced this highly expensive train is worth the cost. But it does seem Hitatchi has done the best it can with a bad spec from the DFT

I was heavily critical of these trains on this forum about 18 months ago and got a hammering. They are even worse than I forecast. The next questions will concern clearance problems and ride quality due to the length of the vehicles but we will see, won't we?
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Power doors will reduce dwell regardless. It's why a Sprinter can beat HST timings through Cornwall.
How do you know it is because of the power doors? Mark 3 stock has a pinch point inside and you have to be careful getting on and off because of the gap in some situations.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
I'm pretty sure people have said the same about what you know and love today, and no doubt people said it about them and so on.

I find these things only become depressing if you let them - people want reliability and comfort, they want to get where they're going, and they want to get there quickly. There's no use being sad that people don't like what you like, and it's certainly not fair to say that because they don't that somehow they're just faceless masses with no sense of fun. I mean, what proportion of commuters regularly use the bar on the train to socialise rather than to just get a bit of a drink on the way home? It's easy to romanticise something in your mind, but I've no doubt that in the 1930s very few people were any more bothered about how they travelled by train than people today, as everything's boring when it's routine.

Hell, people complained when the train itself was invented that it was a sad day for society - I'm sure we'll all survive fine with the SET.
You can always travel in this stock of 1960s vehicles, it runs Thursdays to Sundays inclusive, and there is a restaurant car where the food is cooked on board. Book early as it is very popular with ordinary travellers, not train freaks, which says quite a lot.
http://www.blataget.com/
 

Yew

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The test of the design will be if they are ordered by choice, if Alliance or another OAO purchases them over other designs then you know the critics were wrong.

Its a shame the test of the design couldnt be, I dont know, a test fleet as per the APT...
 

WatcherZero

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A couple of pre-series trains is quite common in modern (large) rolling stock orders, gives them a chance to test and tweak before they enter serial production. That said you dont really need test vehicles in the same sense anymore with computer aided design you can already simulate its operating charachteristics such as stresses, wheel performance, etc... any new radical tech or requiring real world performance validation can be tested on existing trains like sticking an engine, transformer, etc on a different class. Components for IEP were tested in Japanese trains and a test track utilising UK track/overhead standards was built.
 

RAGNARØKR

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Aren't the floors on Mk3/4 coaches higher than the floors on standard multiple unit stock? I seem to remember there being an internal step up when I was last on one of them.
Floors used to be at a standard height of 4 foot 3 inches, I think that works out at 1300 mm. There is an advisory standard height for platforms of 915 mm. That means two steps. The main problem with the step is that it is too short from nose to riser, usually not more than about 150 mm, ie about half the length of the average foot. The solution to this problem is the extending steps which are standard on new stock on the continent. The deployment time is more than compensated for as people board and alight faster.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Problem there is our platforms intrude into the space below floor level so stock has to get narrower. On the continent platforms don't have a lip so it's possible for a train to have a floor level with the platform without losing any width.
Continental platforms are generally lower and vary considerably in height even on the same system. Retractable steps are widespread on recent stock. Entrance level is low on double-deck stock. The latest X61 Swedish commuter trains have almost level access as the platforms were made to suit. These have seats on plinths above the bogies.

The standard floor height for UK stock was 1300mm. Lower floors came in with commuter trains, probably starting with class 313 in 1975.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
A couple of pre-series trains is quite common in modern (large) rolling stock orders, gives them a chance to test and tweak before they enter serial production. That said you dont really need test vehicles in the same sense anymore with computer aided design you can already simulate its operating charachteristics such as stresses, wheel performance, etc... any new radical tech or requiring real world performance validation can be tested on existing trains like sticking an engine, transformer, etc on a different class. Components for IEP were tested in Japanese trains and a test track utilising UK track/overhead standards was built.
I would have been nice for passengers to have been shown an interior mockup of about 1/3rd of a carriage which could have been taken round on a travelling exhibition, and a video made of the other features. A mockup of the doorway area would have been a sensible thing to test the issues relating to loading and unloading.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
And now would have been coming up to 20 years old. Pounding by a heavy locomotive would have resulted in designs being sought to mitigate track damage.

The need for more passenger space would push the logical conclusion of a distributed traction system with passengers in leading vehicles.

The regular need to go off-wire and ideal to have a flexible diagram opportunity would bring us back to bimode IEP or similar.

If we didn't already have it in a bimode Meridian...
What track damage is done by modern off-the-peg diesel locomotives such as the TRAXX and class 68?

The need to go off-wire unpredictably is not that regular. It would mostly happen at set change-over points where the train could usefully split anyway due to the lighter traffic on the non-electrified stretches. The Waterloo-Bournemouth-Weymouth model would have been unproblematic.

It will be interesting to see how useful the limp-home facility is. I was stuck for four hours in a forest due to an incident a couple of years ago. It took two hours for a freight diesel loco to arrive and another two to couple it to the train. Luckily it was in the middle of the summer. The main problem is that all the electrical systems stopped working after half an hour. An auxiliary generator for the hotel services would have been useful.
 

starrymarkb

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RAGNARØKR;1856712 said:
How do you know it is because of the power doors? Mark 3 stock has a pinch point inside and you have to be careful getting on and off because of the gap in some situations.

Can't be worse then a 153 for pinch points (as it's usually the St Ives 153 that gets commandeered when the HST at Long Rock fails to start)
 

SpacePhoenix

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RAGNARØKR;1856832 said:
It will be interesting to see how useful the limp-home facility is. I was stuck for four hours in a forest due to an incident a couple of years ago. It took two hours for a freight diesel loco to arrive and another two to couple it to the train. Luckily it was in the middle of the summer. The main problem is that all the electrical systems stopped working after half an hour. An auxiliary generator for the hotel services would have been useful.

Does modern Uk rolling stock have a "limp home" facility to get the train to the nearest station for detraining passengers?
 

Domh245

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No stock has a limp home facility in the proper sense of the word, apart from the IEPs, which will have the small diesel engine on the electric versions for such situations. Of course in situations such as a OLE isolation on the WLL, provided that the train is still above some third rail, it could change ends and drive off back the other way, but that is hardly a limp home facility!
 

LexyBoy

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I'm pretty sceptical that the "limp home" ability will be worth it. It will allow trains to continue travelling in the event that:
  • Disruption is caused by OHLE problems,
  • AND this has not affected signalling
  • AND running lines are not affected (i.e. not a dewirement)
  • AND there are no pure electric trains on the route

From seeing how often EMT is completely stopped by OHLE problems I don't see it being used much. Provision of electricity for hotel services as mentioned by Ragnarøkr could be useful, I don't know if this is an issue over here.

RAGNARØKR;1856712 said:
I was heavily critical of these trains on this forum about 18 months ago and got a hammering. They are even worse than I forecast.

Well unlike you I've not ridden one yet so couldn't comment...
 

dstrat

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All I'll say is look at Hitachi's latest wonder creation on HS1. It is a completely soulless and bland affair. I used to regularly travel from East Kent all the way up north and getting off that train and onto an Intercity 125/225 was night and day.

I think most people who are currently sitting comfortably on the ECML are going to have a shock when they have their plastic creation displace their old trains.
 

RAGNARØKR

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Which German trains would these be? The ICEs are fairly swanky, but then a nice large loading gauge allowing spacious interiors does help, but there is an awful lot of bog-standard suburban stock that is much the same as anything you would find here, or in the rest of Europe.
German trains are not significantly wider than the maximum allowed in the UK. You have to go to Scandinavia for that, where the latest stock is 3.5 metres wide.

German regional express trains seem to be largely double-deck these days. They are quite pleasant especially on the upper deck, though you have to mind your head when you stand up from a window seat.

The British system has suffered from a failure to invest in fixed infrastructure to cope with the growing population.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
I joined BR in 1971 at the age of 17. On this subject, given Britains high platforms it is a no-brainer to have same level boarding even with powerplants underfloor. The issue is that some currently favoured simply don't fit.
If the floor is less than 1300 then the width has to be reduced at floor level. Look at the loading gauge diagram.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
I'm pretty sceptical that the "limp home" ability will be worth it. It will allow trains to continue travelling in the event that:
  • Disruption is caused by OHLE problems,
  • AND this has not affected signalling
  • AND running lines are not affected (i.e. not a dewirement)
  • AND there are no pure electric trains on the route

From seeing how often EMT is completely stopped by OHLE problems I don't see it being used much. Provision of electricity for hotel services as mentioned by Ragnarøkr could be useful, I don't know if this is an issue over here.



Well unlike you I've not ridden one yet so couldn't comment...
Like anyone who has worked in any area of design, I can read a drawing and understand what it represents. There is no need to wait to travel on one to make this judgement. Specifications, drawings and 3-dimensional simulations give a very good idea of what anything will be like before production has even begun. If, for instance, seat pitch is specified to be less than a certain figure, then it is going to be cramped.

However, these days the information is accessible to anyone because firms like Autocad have sophisticated software which can be used to produce what are in effect photographs and videos of virtual objects. These can be understood by people who have not worked in the design field and are not able to read and understand drawings. That is why these tools are used by designers in all fields of design. Clients expect them to. There is also other software which will give information about things such as noise levels and ride quality.

From the information that has been public for the past few years, it is obvious that the IEP is not going to be Britain's most passenger-friendly inter-city train ever.
 

The Ham

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RAGNARØKR;1857802 said:
German trains are not significantly wider than the maximum allowed in the UK. You have to go to Scandinavia for that, where the latest stock is 3.5 metres wide.

German regional express trains seem to be largely double-deck these days. They are quite pleasant especially on the upper deck, though you have to mind your head when you stand up from a window seat.

The British system has suffered from a failure to invest in fixed infrastructure to cope with the growing population.

OK, so what you're saying is that we could be making the lines in the UK so they can take larger trains so that we can run double decked and wider trains. Given how busy our rail network is and how expensive it would be to upgrade the existing lines (given the number of bridges, signals, etc. which cross the lines) maybe a new line would be good. Such a line would probably be best between the UK major cities.

Like anyone who has worked in any area of design, I can read a drawing and understand what it represents. There is no need to wait to travel on one to make this judgement. Specifications, drawings and 3-dimensional simulations give a very good idea of what anything will be like before production has even begun. If, for instance, seat pitch is specified to be less than a certain figure, then it is going to be cramped.

However, these days the information is accessible to anyone because firms like Autocad have sophisticated software which can be used to produce what are in effect photographs and videos of virtual objects. These can be understood by people who have not worked in the design field and are not able to read and understand drawings. That is why these tools are used by designers in all fields of design. Clients expect them to. There is also other software which will give information about things such as noise levels and ride quality.

From the information that has been public for the past few years, it is obvious that the IEP is not going to be Britain's most passenger-friendly inter-city train ever.

It depends on what passengers want, if they would like a lot of space then IEP may not be the best trains, however if passengers want a seat on busy services then IEP are likely to be good for passengers.

If you want to see cramped seats you need to look no further than the 165's and 166's. However given how congested our network is such trains are required.

The last time I did a long distance trip I found that the amount of legroom on the IC225's was less than that on the Voyager which I used on opposite directions of the trip on consecutive days. Based on this I would rather see the scrapping of the IC225's to be replaced with new trains with thinner seats.

Likewise when I travelled on Easyjet earlier this year out on their new thin seats and back on their older (thicker) seats the new seats were more comfortable as there was more legroom. The comfort of the padding was no better or worse (or at least not noticeably on the four hour flight) on either seat. As such although the pitch hadn't changed, because of extra space due to the loss of the seat thickness it was more comfortable.

Just for your reference at 6 foot I'm not the tallest of people, nor are my legs very long for someone my height (as there are people who are shorter than me who have the same leg length as me).
 

RAGNARØKR

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OK, so what you're saying is that we could be making the lines in the UK so they can take larger trains so that we can run double decked and wider trains. Given how busy our rail network is and how expensive it would be to upgrade the existing lines (given the number of bridges, signals, etc. which cross the lines) maybe a new line would be good. Such a line would probably be best between the UK major cities.



It depends on what passengers want, if they would like a lot of space then IEP may not be the best trains, however if passengers want a seat on busy services then IEP are likely to be good for passengers.

If you want to see cramped seats you need to look no further than the 165's and 166's. However given how congested our network is such trains are required.
I am not saying anything about what we could or could not be doing, I was merely describing what you will find if you travel on local trains in Germany.

I am far from convinced about the need for cramped seating on trains in the UK. On the Oxford route, 3-car 166 sets typically replaced mark 1 and mark 2 stock running in 8 car formations, and all the platforms on those routes could take longer trains than currently running.
 

SpacePhoenix

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If any lines in the UK where to be upgraded to be able to handle double-decker trains it should be either the ECML or the WCML as both would probably have enough traffic to hopefully justify the huge cost (probably many billions of pounds). Even if a route has the passenger traffic would it be even in the slightest bit financially viable? My gut feeling is that it wouldn't be financially viable on any existing line.
 

The Ham

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RAGNARØKR;1857845 said:
I am not saying anything about what we could or could not be doing, I was merely describing what you will find if you travel on local trains in Germany.

That is as maybe, but it's hardly a fair comparison as Germany has the advantage of being able to use larger trains.

I am far from convinced about the need for cramped seating on trains in the UK. On the Oxford route, 3-car 166 sets typically replaced mark 1 and mark 2 stock running in 8 car formations, and all the platforms on those routes could take longer trains than currently running.

Well they will replaced on that route soon(ish) due to electrification. However there are many other routes which will currently use these sets or will have them in due course, where their capacity is needed in their fairly short length (North Downs Line).
 

RAGNARØKR

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Ah yes, the halcyon days of the 1960s and 70s when there were rather fewer people making journeys by rail - about half the numbers there are now, with the increase the greatest - by far - in London and the South East.

https://www.gov.uk/government/uploa...file/252807/rail-trends-factsheet-2012-13.pdf

So, no, we can't all ride around in Southern Region Mk1 stock with 2+2 seats, arranged in nice face to face bays of four, any more, otherwise must of us would never be able to get on the train in the first place.
The nine-car IEP has 526 standard class seats and 99 firsts, as far as I can work out from the drawing. If we go for 23 metre vehicles with 9 bays and reckon all the seating in facing bays, that amounts 7.25 standard class vehicles and 1.8 first class. Call that 8 standard and 2 first, which provides a few more seats, add another vehicle for good measure and allow another 20 metres for the locomotive. That adds up to an 11-car train length of 273 metres compared to the 225 metre length of the IEP. In practice, with a little bit of unidirectional seating - some people prefer it - a standard class vehicle mostly with facing bays can seat 76, so such a train could carry 50 more passengers than the IEP

How many stations where the IEP will stop at have platforms which are long enough for the IEP but could not accommodate a train 50 metres longer?

If the design had been based on the old Bournemouth line principle of an "over-powered" EMU, and trailers which could be drawn off and locomotive hauled on the less-busy non-electrified part of the route, the length of a locomotive issue could also have been saved.
 
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The Ham

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RAGNARØKR;1857861 said:
The nine-car IEP has 526 standard class seats and 99 firsts, as far as I can work out from the drawing. If we go for 23 metre vehicles with 9 bays and reckon all the seating in facing bays, that amounts 7.25 standard class vehicles and 1.8 first class. Call that 8 standard and 2 first, which provides a few more seats, add another vehicle for good measure and allow another 20 metres for the locomotive. That adds up to an 11-car train length of 273 metres compared to the 225 metre length of the IEP. In practice, with a little bit of unidirectional seating - some people prefer it - a standard class vehicle mostly with facing bays can seat 76, so such a train could carry 50 more passengers than the IEP

How many stations where the IEP will stop at have platforms which are long enough for the IEP but could not accommodate a train 50 metres longer?

If the design had been based on the old Bournemouth line principle of an "over-powered" EMU, and trailers which could be drawn off and locomotive hauled on the less-busy non-electrified part of the route, the length of a locomotive issue could also have been saved.

Nice Idea in theory, but a 10 car IEP with an extra first class coach would provide 56 more seats than the 9 coach sets whilst only being 26m longer at 260m, which is 13m shorter than your suggestion. Have it and a full standard coach to replace the split class coach and you'll end up with 127 first class seats and 576 standard class seats a total of 703 compared with 625 or 78 more seat than the 9 coach IEP whilst still shorter than your proposal.
 

NotATrainspott

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If any lines in the UK where to be upgraded to be able to handle double-decker trains it should be either the ECML or the WCML as both would probably have enough traffic to hopefully justify the huge cost (probably many billions of pounds). Even if a route has the passenger traffic would it be even in the slightest bit financially viable? My gut feeling is that it wouldn't be financially viable on any existing line.

You know this would actually be a good idea. Lots of people travel between London, Birmingham, Manchester and Leeds and there's not enough space on the rails right now for all of them. Maybe for good measure we could even throw in Sheffield, Nottingham/Derby and Crewe in as well? Why not increase speeds as well to around 400km/h?
 

RAGNARØKR

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Nice Idea in theory, but a 10 car IEP with an extra first class coach would provide 56 more seats than the 9 coach sets whilst only being 26m longer at 260m, which is 13m shorter than your suggestion. Have it and a full standard coach to replace the split class coach and you'll end up with 127 first class seats and 576 standard class seats a total of 703 compared with 625 or 78 more seat than the 9 coach IEP whilst still shorter than your proposal.
Thanks for these figures. The original point was that it is not longer possible to give passengers the amount of space they would normally have had in the 1960s. So the comparison was with the IEP as proposed, with a conventional train with all seating in facing bays. That means a longer train, as the calculation showed. It may or may not be a problem, though probably not one that SDO would not solve.

Adopting IEP seating density, a 23 metre vehicle would carry at least 80 standard class passengers, perhaps 84. At a conservative estimate, the 11 car conventional train would then have seating for 640 standard class, plus, say, 100 first class ie 740 seats.

The real reason for the cramming of seats is presumably due to the cost of the trains. The 9 car IEP has 625 seats. The cost of the trains is given at around £2.6 million. That works out at £37,000 per seat.

An alternative train might have had 11 trailers, say £1 million each, plus an off-the-peg locomotive like the proposed UK version of the TRAXX. Presumably Siemens could offer a UK version of its Vectron if there was a call. These seem to be around £3 million at the moment, so a complete train would have been about £14 million. That works out at just under £21,000 per seat with 72 seat in standard class and under £20,000 with 76 seats in standard class ie about one-third unidirectional, in line with passengers' preferences. If the programme had also included some mark 3 refurbishment, the average cost per seat would have been brought down further. Of course mark 3 stock cannot go on for ever but £500,000 per vehicle would have paid for a lot of upgrading and life extension. That would have been synergistic with a strategy of locomotive haulage.

If you want to know what the vehicle would look like, there is this prototype here, one of the vehicles in the BREL International set. Based on the mark 3, this was a 23 metre vehicle divided into 9 bays of, probably 1.90 metres, compared to the 8 x 2.1 metre bay mark 3, thus there was the possibility of arranging all seats in facing bays aligned with windows.
 
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NotATrainspott

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RAGNARØKR;1860421 said:
Thanks for these figures. The original point was that it is not longer possible to give passengers the amount of space they would normally have had in the 1960s. So the comparison was with the IEP as proposed, with a conventional train with all seating in facing bays. That means a longer train, as the calculation showed. It may or may not be a problem, though probably not one that SDO would not solve.

Adopting IEP seating density, a 23 metre vehicle would carry at least 80 standard class passengers, perhaps 84. At a conservative estimate, the 11 car conventional train would then have seating for 640 standard class, plus, say, 100 first class ie 740 seats.

The real reason for the cramming of seats is presumably due to the cost of the trains. The 9 car IEP has 625 seats. The cost of the trains is given at around £2.6 million. That works out at £37,000 per seat.

An alternative train might have had 11 trailers, say £1 million each, plus an off-the-peg locomotive like the proposed UK version of the TRAXX. Presumably Siemens could offer a UK version of its Vectron if there was a call. These seem to be around £3 million at the moment, so a complete train would have been about £14 million. That works out at just under £21,000 per seat with 72 seat in standard class and under £20,000 with 76 seats in standard class ie about one-third unidirectional, in line with passengers' preferences. If the programme had also included some mark 3 refurbishment, the average cost per seat would have been brought down further. Of course mark 3 stock cannot go on for ever but £500,000 per vehicle would have paid for a lot of upgrading and life extension.

If you want to know what the vehicle would look like, there is this prototype here, one of the vehicles in the BREL International set. Based on the mark 3, this was a 23 metre vehicle divided into 9 bays of, probably 1.90 metres, compared to the 8 x 2.1 metre bay mark 3, thus there was the possibility of arranging all seats in facing bays aligned with windows.

It may well be possible to have a cheaper LHCS rake but the future of the classic InterCity main lines is distributed traction to eke out every last drop of capacity. For the north-south lines the future post-HS2 is consistent stopping patterns, even for very long distance services, which prevents the lower acceleration of loco hauled rakes from being used effectively on services with fewer stops near London. Once the GWML has filled up again and 'HS4' is built the same will apply to it as well - all remaining services would stop at Old Oak Common, Reading, Swindon etc while still accelerating up to 200-230km/h between stops.
 

Pure BR

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Just received Roger Ford's email 'informed sources'. GW IEP, £64000 per diagrammed train per month. Jesus! And no restaurant car for that cash? Progress. I bet Hitachi are rubbing their financial hands with glee! 27.5 years ain't a bad result with that amount of money coming in. No doubt the ticket prices will have to rise considerably to pay for that lot. Loosing a guard on the IEP isn't really make much of a dent on the costs is it now? So much for a cheaper railway.
 

RAGNARØKR

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That is as maybe, but it's hardly a fair comparison as Germany has the advantage of being able to use larger trains.
True but some comparisons are fair - the UK loading gauge is no excuse for making seat pitches so tight - standard for inter city stock in Sweden is 900 mm. Neither is there any excuse for uncomfortable seat profiles, though these are to be found everywhere. There are uncomfortable seats to be in some long distance trains, and comfortable seats in some commuter trains. The parameters of a comfortable seat profile were established in the 1950s so that should not be an issue. Nor is there any excuse for inadequate luggage space, which is a by-product of airline type seating layouts.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
It may well be possible to have a cheaper LHCS rake but the future of the classic InterCity main lines is distributed traction to eke out every last drop of capacity. For the north-south lines the future post-HS2 is consistent stopping patterns, even for very long distance services, which prevents the lower acceleration of loco hauled rakes from being used effectively on services with fewer stops near London. Once the GWML has filled up again and 'HS4' is built the same will apply to it as well - all remaining services would stop at Old Oak Common, Reading, Swindon etc while still accelerating up to 200-230km/h between stops.
Roger Ford demolished the argument about distributed traction several years ago. The benefit is only at the very low end of the speed range. That makes it suitable for trains with stops every couple of miles eg London Underground. Above a certain speed the bottleneck is not adhesion but power - Ford referred to something known as the "constant power" curve.

There has been an indecisive debate over axle loadings and wear-and-tear on the track - whether it is preferable to distribute the load of the traction equipment over the whole train or concentrate it in a locomotive. As far as I am aware, this is ongoing, which suggests that the difference is not particularly significant. It will almost certainly turn out that specific features of the suspension design are as important as axle loads.

If eking out capacity is the requirement, then the need is for the longest possible trains consistent with the infrastructure, as well as improvements to the infrastructure to permit longer trains. SDO systems are a help here.
 
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Dave1987

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Just received Roger Ford's email 'informed sources'. GW IEP, £64000 per diagrammed train per month. Jesus! And no restaurant car for that cash? Progress. I bet Hitachi are rubbing their financial hands with glee! 27.5 years ain't a bad result with that amount of money coming in. No doubt the ticket prices will have to rise considerably to pay for that lot. Loosing a guard on the IEP isn't really make much of a dent on the costs is it now? So much for a cheaper railway.

This is one of the biggest point that has been shunned by the supporters of this deal. It's incredibly expensive! Ticket prices will have to rise to pay for them.
 

NotATrainspott

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2 Feb 2013
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RAGNARØKR;1860579 said:
Roger Ford demolished the argument about distributed traction several years ago. The benefit is only at the very low end of the speed range. That makes it suitable for trains with stops every couple of miles eg London Underground. Above a certain speed the bottleneck is not adhesion but power - Ford referred to something known as the "constant power" curve.

There has been an indecisive debate over axle loadings and wear-and-tear on the track - whether it is preferable to distribute the load of the traction equipment over the whole train or concentrate it in a locomotive. As far as I am aware, this is ongoing, which suggests that the difference is not particularly significant. It will almost certainly turn out that specific features of the suspension design are as important as axle loads.

If eking out capacity is the requirement, then the need is for the longest possible trains consistent with the infrastructure, as well as improvements to the infrastructure to permit longer trains. SDO systems are a help here.

So why has the entire rest of the world moved to multiple unit high speed trains? The Shinkansen has always had distributed traction and all new European models have it as well. The German equivalent of the IEP is the ICx and it's exactly the same, using distributed traction to replace older loco hauled rakes and power car ICE1 and ICE2 trains. Unless there is a worldwide conspiracy against loco or power car haulage I don't think the whole world could be described as being as blinkered as the DfT are when it comes to procuring new high speed train sets.

The question is not how long the train is as much as how much of that length is available to carry passengers. 265m is the new standard length for InterCity platforms and if you waste 20m of that to a locomotive then it's not efficient at all. SDO is not a silver bullet that cures all ills - it is only suitable for stations where there are a small number of passengers boarding and alighting from a limited number of trains too long to fit in the platforms.
 

WatcherZero

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Also track damage increases exponentially with axel weight, distributed weight reduces wear and tear on the tracks compared to having a very heavy locomotive.
 

The Ham

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This is one of the biggest point that has been shunned by the supporters of this deal. It's incredibly expensive! Ticket prices will have to rise to pay for them.

Ticket prices are mostly fixed by the government and grow year on year regardless of what is done, (mostly) other than advance tickets which are used to fill otherwise emptier services.
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So why has the entire rest of the world moved to multiple unit high speed trains? The Shinkansen has always had distributed traction and all new European models have it as well. The German equivalent of the IEP is the ICx and it's exactly the same, using distributed traction to replace older loco hauled rakes and power car ICE1 and ICE2 trains. Unless there is a worldwide conspiracy against loco or power car haulage I don't think the whole world could be described as being as blinkered as the DfT are when it comes to procuring new high speed train sets.

The question is not how long the train is as much as how much of that length is available to carry passengers. 265m is the new standard length for InterCity platforms and if you waste 20m of that to a locomotive then it's not efficient at all. SDO is not a silver bullet that cures all ills - it is only suitable for stations where there are a small number of passengers boarding and alighting from a limited number of trains too long to fit in the platforms.

Even India is going from Loco's to MU's as it will save them millions.
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Just received Roger Ford's email 'informed sources'. GW IEP, £64000 per diagrammed train per month. Jesus! And no restaurant car for that cash? Progress. I bet Hitachi are rubbing their financial hands with glee! 27.5 years ain't a bad result with that amount of money coming in. No doubt the ticket prices will have to rise considerably to pay for that lot. Loosing a guard on the IEP isn't really make much of a dent on the costs is it now? So much for a cheaper railway.

£64,000 per train with 600 seats over 20 days (about the number of working days a month) is just over £5 per seat per DAY, that is hardly going to be hard for a TOC to earn that much to cover the cost of the train.

Given the increase in seats over an HST and how much a peak hour ticket from Reading is, chances are the TOC would make up all the extra costs just from extra peak passengers.

By my workings each train would need just 76 passengers to travel from Reading (£42) to Paddington in the morning each working day to cover the total cost of the train. Allowing for the fact that it maybe competing against a train which is half the cost, that only 38 extra passengers per train in the morning (weekday) peaks to cover ALL the extra costs.

Move those extra passengers so that they are starting from Oxford (£58) and you are looking 55 extra passengers for all the costs and 28 for the extra costs. Then of course, you would hardly need many people (16 and 8) paying £200 from Bristol.

That would leave the TOC with a "free" upgraded train for the rest of the day and at weekend to which to fill with cheap advance fairs all being profit to them.
 

razor89

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I have no doubt it'll be an adequate train that will plod up and down without drama. It'll be awfully boring, no buffet or fresh air, just rows and rows of seats. Rock hard ones, probably. No point getting up for a wander, nowhere to go, just a stressed trolley person hammering up and down the aisles. The generally pleasant tradition of evening commuters gathering at the bar for a few beers and some putting the world to rights will be long gone, instead they'll all be sat down and subdued into silence like the masses. The computerised voice of Big Brother will churn away, mind numbingly repeating the same message tone-for-tone before and after every stop, any shred of personality through manual announcements safely stamped out. The five car sets will end up rammed at some point, inevitably. Just another average plastic train, devoid of any trace of glamour and designed to make everybody's journey sterile and grey.

Most people are pretty indifferent to train design in my opinion. Rail travel is seen mostly as overpriced and unreliable, local services are like sitting on a bus and intercity stuff is like sitting on a budget aeroplane. The vast majority wont care in the slightest. Shame.

:cry:

As has been said, brilliantly depressing.

EDIT: Oops, somehow missed the 5 pages of posts inbetween!
 
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RAGNARØKR

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Ticket prices are mostly fixed by the government and grow year on year regardless of what is done, (mostly) other than advance tickets which are used to fill otherwise emptier services.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---


Even India is going from Loco's to MU's as it will save them millions.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---


£64,000 per train with 600 seats over 20 days (about the number of working days a month) is just over £5 per seat per DAY, that is hardly going to be hard for a TOC to earn that much to cover the cost of the train.

Given the increase in seats over an HST and how much a peak hour ticket from Reading is, chances are the TOC would make up all the extra costs just from extra peak passengers.

By my workings each train would need just 76 passengers to travel from Reading (£42) to Paddington in the morning each working day to cover the total cost of the train. Allowing for the fact that it maybe competing against a train which is half the cost, that only 38 extra passengers per train in the morning (weekday) peaks to cover ALL the extra costs.

Move those extra passengers so that they are starting from Oxford (£58) and you are looking 55 extra passengers for all the costs and 28 for the extra costs. Then of course, you would hardly need many people (16 and 8) paying £200 from Bristol.

That would leave the TOC with a "free" upgraded train for the rest of the day and at weekend to which to fill with cheap advance fairs all being profit to them.
Where does the £64,000 figure come from?

If seats are as cheap as you say, then there is even less case for cramming them in which has increasingly been the practice in Britain for the past 20 years.

Going over from old locos to new MUs is not a like-for-like comparison. The main benefit of MUs is that they minimise locomotive movements at terminals. The down side is the number of driving cabs and associated equipment. A nine-car fixed formation train is not an MU and that is inflexible as the length cannot be adjusted to traffic demand. The role of fashions in this cannot be ignored, in particular the desire to for a modern appearance with a sexy front end. Following the economic crisis in Ireland, the wave of investment in Ireland which led to the scrapping of a fleet of modern stock now looks like a folly since IR is now in severe financial difficulties.

I am not sure whether there really is such an MU fashion. Coming back to Germany and its double-deckers, these are variously hauled by diesel or electric locomotives in push-pull mode depending on the route. The trailers are of various vintages, some seem fairly new. Apart from the ICE sets and some suburban units, locomotive haulage is the rule in Sweden. Three and four car loco hauled trains are common, sometimes with stock from the 1960s operated by open access firms. Norway runs 4-car unit sets but then traffic is lighter.

Most inter-city trains in Sweden are MU hauled. The Swedish X2 inter-city train is really a locomotive-hauled unit running in push-pull mode, and can be made up into units of between locomotive plus between 5 and 7 trailers, which in turn can run singly or in pairs according to the time of year. The new X55 units are fast 4-car sets for lightly-loaded long distance routes and do not run in pairs. The X31 is a 3-car multiple unit, originally a fleet shared between DSB and SJ primarily for Copenhagen and the Öresund bridge commuter traffic but it has proved inadequate for the numbers now travelling so these usually run in pairs. Its use as an inter-city train is incidental to its main operations. These latter are an example of good interior layout, being about 50% in facing bays of four seats aligned to the windows, which should have been the starting point for any specification.

An important reason for having facing bays is the luggage space between seat backs; this otherwise has to be provided in separate shelves resulting in a loss of seating space and separating passengers from their luggage, which they are constantly being reminded to keep with them at all times. Having one's case by the door at the end of the vehicle makes for a stressful journey as one has to check at every stop that someone has not walked off with it.

There is also a useful weight saving to be made with seats designed to be arranged in facing bays, even though existing seat designs do not exploit the possibility. Seats designed to be arranged airline style need to be substantial for safety reasons and avoid resonance. If seats are designed to be fixed back-to-back or to a bulkhead, the whole can be designed as a single structure, with a consequent reduction in weight.
 
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The Ham

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RAGNARØKR;1860723 said:
Where does the £64,000 figure come from?

If seats are as cheap as you say, then there is even less case for cramming them in which has increasingly been the practice in Britain for the past 20 years.

The £64,000 figure came from the post I was referencing above.

Rolling stock is cheap when compared to the cost of infrastructure, given that there are a lack of paths in the UK then it is better to cram seats on trains rather than build new lines, longer platforms, new chords, etc. However that only get us so far, hence the investment in Crossrail, Reading station, Northern Hub, etc.
 

RAGNARØKR

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The £64,000 figure came from the post I was referencing above.

Rolling stock is cheap when compared to the cost of infrastructure, given that there are a lack of paths in the UK then it is better to cram seats on trains rather than build new lines, longer platforms, new chords, etc. However that only get us so far, hence the investment in Crossrail, Reading station, Northern Hub, etc.
As I understand it, please correct me if I am wrong, costs are roughly one-quarter infrastructure access, one-quarter rolling stock leasing and one-half staff, (the last of which is 40% tax). So if capital costs are, say, 30% less, it will produce a saving of about 7%.

I still don't understand how or why it is necessary to cram the seats if platforms are long enough to accommodate trains with the same number of seats without cramming them.
 
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