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Failed Unit
Established Member
I know I mentioned this on another thread, but I bet the next announcement is that the IC225 is staying on the ECML and the number of IEP sets will be reduced accordingly.
I know people hope to see some of the 225's go over to MML and London - Norwich but I suspect these routes will both be EMU hauled.
The 225 has a lot of life left in it, I can't see it getting replaced before its time in the current enviroment.
EMT Commuter
Member
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Do you mean Electric Loco hauled? Ok for London Norwich under the wires. MML has a few HSTs (do these count a loco hauled?) and DMUs (noisy Meridians), but the wires only do to Bedford at the moment.
Failed Unit
Established Member
No I mean EMU hauled.
I don't have insider info, but I can see London - Norwich going EMU. To keep people happy it would need to be a class 444 style unit, but it could quite easily be any EMU as it may be considered that the route is no longer than London - Weymouth, London - Kent Coast etc. Off peak a 5 car EMU is enough to cope with demand on this route.
As for MML, the HST has got another few years with us yet. My money is that when the wires are extended to Sheffield it will be EMU's again. Again hopefully IC style ones but I am sure that a 100mph EMU would keep time with a 125mph DMU / HST considering that the line speed is only 110mph.
Daimler
Established Member
To think that once over it was a proper inter-city route, with named trains and full restaurant car services.
Still, a 444-type-EMU could be a lot worse, I guess.
Failed Unit said:
Of course, this route should theoretically end up with IEPs, if I remember rightly.
The question is, will the IEP ever actually happen? It's massively expensive and extremely wasteful. As Ian Walmesley repeatedly points out in Modern Railways, it would be far simpler - and far cheaper - to buy off-the-shelf locos (the change in loading gauge is unlikely to be a big problem, he seems to think) from Siemens/Bombardier and to 'update' the Mk3 design for use today. Equally in Modern Railways, Roger Ford is at pains to point out the limitations of the bi-mode IEP, which - it now appears, if I understand it correctly - will need to run both using electric power and its diesel engine under the wires[/I]. What a great idea...
With any luck it'll get cancelled and something better thought out will replace it in time.
In the shorter term, I've often wondered why we don't just get a load of electric locomotives to replace the HST power cars on Mk3s - which, let's face it, are hardly life-expired, particularly if they were given the overhaul that Chiltern is talking about (power doors, etc.). Then we could come up - when the Mk3s are declared to be past it - a new 'Mk5' coach design, or something along those lines. Of course, loco-haulage is loathed by those in charge, but it would make for far greater versatility - no need to lug around a heavy and useless diesel power unit/load of electric motors when operating from the other power source - instead simple, quick changing of locomotives at major stations would be the order of the day (with Dellner couplers, this should be easy enough to carry out - though I don't know if these could be retro-fitted to Mk3s, so that might be a longer term thing).
Kneedown
Established Member
EMT want rid by 2015. At the rate they are blowing up and being bashed into one another they'll do well to last that long!
That should be if the wires are extended, and it's looking like a VERY big if now. Two scenario's:- Labour gets in again, MML electrification conveniently forgotton about to avoid getting us into an even bigger financial hole. They've announced lesser schemes, notably in the Labour luvvies stamping grounds, to possibly swing a few few voters. Adonis said it himself:- "I can't imagine the MML will not be electrified in the future, it's just a question of dates". I take that to mean "Not on my watch, sometime between now and 2090 or beyond". Lets face it, if they were serious about doing it, it would have been annouced by now.
The other scenario is that the Tories get in and scrap the whole lot to cut costs.
125mph upgrades at some locations are planned.
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According to this week's 'Rail', the plan for the ECML is to replace the HSTs first (10 coach bi-mode version), then introduce SETs on the Kings Cross - Cambridge route (5 coach electric version). The 91s will then be replaced by 10 coach electric SETs from 2017, but 'Rail' notes that this is only an option.
route:oxford
Established Member
- Joined
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Far simpler to tag onto the Pendolino build that is in progress and order a couple of dozen additional 11 car sets for the East Coast.
Forget the Bi-mode power. It won't be *that* long until Transport Scotland have the wires up as far as Dunblane/Perth. Then all that will be needed is a small fleet of suitable locos based in Perth to haul the Caledonian Sleeper and East Coast Pendolinos the final leg to and from Inverness and over the Bridges between Edinburgh & Aberdeen.
Forget the Bi-mode power. It won't be *that* long until Transport Scotland have the wires up as far as Dunblane/Perth. Then all that will be needed is a small fleet of suitable locos based in Perth to haul the Caledonian Sleeper and East Coast Pendolinos the final leg to and from Inverness and over the Bridges between Edinburgh & Aberdeen.
poshbakerloo
Member
I agree, I think it will happen, the IC225s are only just about 20 years old maybe 22 years for the older ones, about halfway thru there life span, as I think the HSTs could be around until they are 40+
Daimler
Established Member
Excellent, we can look forward to 40 more years of diesel passenger trains on the GWML then, electrified or not. As Roger Ford repeatedly points out, the Bi-Mode doesn't work, and needs the 'generator' to be on all the time.
That is, of course, providing the whole SET project isn't canned after the general election, which is eminently possible.
As Railway Eye so eloquently puts it...
gingerheid
Established Member
- Joined
- 2 Apr 2006
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- 1,499
Ah. IEP. The train that tries to be all things to all people...
Is there any truth in the rumour (that I just tried to start) that DFT want the units to be equipped with tamping machines and stone blowers?
Is there any truth in the rumour (that I just tried to start) that DFT want the units to be equipped with tamping machines and stone blowers?
I think they're supposed to have retractable wings so they compete with the airlines too.
The first train is also rumoured to be used to 'deliver' the second coming of Christ into King's Cross in 3015, if it has been built by then. Fingers crossed this is the same year as the Thameslink project is completed.
The first train is also rumoured to be used to 'deliver' the second coming of Christ into King's Cross in 3015, if it has been built by then. Fingers crossed this is the same year as the Thameslink project is completed.
Old Timer
Established Member
There are all sorts of hair-brained shemes doing the rounds at the moment, pretty much all of which Labour know are either imposible to fund or when costed properly they don't really stand up to scrutiny.
If Labour had ever had any interest in the Railways, then it would not have used hopelessly out of date fuel costs in the CBA, which inevitably always showed a negative benefit from Rail. I wonder why THAT was. Its amazing how they have suddenly become converted on the road to Damascus as a General Election approaches :roll::roll::roll:
Pretty much all the schemes that were allowed to go ahead served or in some other way benefitted Labour MPs constituencies.
Only someone without a brain, or an ardent Left Winger believes that any of these schemes will readily see the light of day given current economic forecasts, and all they will do is allow Labour in Opposition to chant cynical and disingenuous accusations of "Tory Cuts", which the faithful will lap up without intellectual question as they always do :roll::roll:
If Labour had ever had any interest in the Railways, then it would not have used hopelessly out of date fuel costs in the CBA, which inevitably always showed a negative benefit from Rail. I wonder why THAT was. Its amazing how they have suddenly become converted on the road to Damascus as a General Election approaches :roll::roll::roll:
Pretty much all the schemes that were allowed to go ahead served or in some other way benefitted Labour MPs constituencies.
Only someone without a brain, or an ardent Left Winger believes that any of these schemes will readily see the light of day given current economic forecasts, and all they will do is allow Labour in Opposition to chant cynical and disingenuous accusations of "Tory Cuts", which the faithful will lap up without intellectual question as they always do :roll::roll:
WillPS
Established Member
There's probably a very easy answer to this question, but why aren't more operators looking at DEMUs? Add a pantograph and voila - you have a bi-mode train.
Geezertronic
Established Member
It will be interesting to see whether the Voyagers and Super Voyagers do go down this route and add a Pantograph coach.
Drsatan
Established Member
Except only one coach would be powered (unless it was possible to squeeze both the diesel engines and the electrical equipment under the floor of all coaches), so performance 'on the juice' might be a bit slow.
There's a historical parallel though. The 'Thumpers' were built with the option for them to be converted to EMUs should their routes be electrified i.e. the Uckfield branch, Ashford-Hastings. Both routes were due for electrification once but DafT isn't too keen on that :roll:
Geezertronic
Established Member
So it's not as simple as the electricity from the pantograph replacing the electricity generated by the diesel engines to the generator/electric motors then?
No it is that simple. Each coach has one motored set of axles, driven by a motor which is fed by the diesel engine.
On the juice, take it down a wire to a transformer, split it up and run it to the motors. Same result!
royaloak
Established Member
They have 1 powered axle per bogie making them 1A-A1 wheel arrangement per coach.
No traction bus, each coach is self contained but it really isnt difficult to fit one.
No traction bus, each coach is self contained but it really isnt difficult to fit one.
Indeed - Bombardier wouldn't have mentioned it if it wasn't do-able.
Interestingly, the 222s do though. As part of the rematch for the family, Bombardier saw fit to add a bus through the trains. The 9 coach Meridians would inevitably have some engines switched out, thus the bus was used to distribute some power evenly.
I don't know what happened to it after the remarshalling of the sets; it makes far more sense operationally to disable it as mods are quicker and easier. FYI 222104 is now running around as 5-car after 222017 had it's nosecone smashed in.
I don't know what happened to it after the remarshalling of the sets; it makes far more sense operationally to disable it as mods are quicker and easier. FYI 222104 is now running around as 5-car after 222017 had it's nosecone smashed in.
royaloak
Established Member
Why dis-able the bus, its only one more (large) cable between the coaches, and LBH there are loads already so one more wont make much difference.
starrymarkb
Established Member
Think there might be an imminent announcement - according to uk.railway - Lord Adonis, Gordon Brown are in Durham tomorrow, by co-incidence so is the President of Hitachi
Pure co-incidence isn't it 
http://railwayeye.blogspot.com/2010/02/shortlest-lived-train-fleet-in-history.html
http://railwayeye.blogspot.com/2010/02/shortlest-lived-train-fleet-in-history.html
Old Timer
Established Member
More lies, hype and spin, to give them something to attack the Conservatives from the Opposition benches when it is cancelled.
Clearly no-one in Labour (seeming apart from Darling) seems to know we are in a recession and the economy is screwed :roll::roll:
Clearly no-one in Labour (seeming apart from Darling) seems to know we are in a recession and the economy is screwed :roll::roll:
Failed Unit
Established Member
Not really, for a start I would love to see any goverment not take up the option that would replace the 225's. Likewise I am sure the the public isn't that stupic that if the project was cancelled and replaced by mk5 coaches, with Diesel trains with quick couplers to haul of the wires they would be happy, if they could prove this option was cheaper than the IEP they would be dancing in the streets!
Going off topic, but the cancellation of electrification schemes after the election is probably unlike, I know both oil based fuel and electric are both going north, but I would hope that electricity prices won't rise as quickly as oil prices!
Kingfisher200262
Member
No white smoke has appeared over Durham... another false alarm.
Maybe they couldn't agree who would pay for lunch.
Old Timer
Established Member
But if you read any thread on new rolling stock or electrification here, everyone puts that same argument forward.
It does hold water, because we are going to endure severe cutback irrespective of who gets into power it is just that Labour is lying about the cuts they will have to make. Indeed they already have some form on this.
Only the self deluded and those who are in power at the moment could suggest let alone believe that a whole host of railway investment cuts are NOT on the way.
You only have to look at the fact that NR has taken a maintenance holiday "to save money" (i. e. to give more to Darling to fritter away) to see the obvious evidence of that.
For all sorts of reasons long since discussed to death elsewhere, and I am sure here as well, the "new order" of mechanised track maintenance will never deliver what is promised, because our system is just not up to a Dutch style renewals programme.
The bottom line is that when it comes to railways against the NHS or social services cuts, the one thing I will put my pension on (what little there is now left
) is that the railways will be way, way down the queue in the same way that they always have been.The Railways here will never ever be success because of the dead hand of the Treasury, and the inevitable knee-jerk Political expedience driven by an unintelligent, uninformed and uncaring Media whose only agenda is sales, advertising revenue or viewing figures.
The Railways in the UK have been a Political and Media football for so long that only by completely taking then out of the "public" arena in the long term can anything be achieved.
The UK public want a railway that offers constant services, for bugger all, running whenever THEY want to travel on the odd occasion that they do. The people who moan the loudest are normally those who only use the train when the roads are impassable. They are also the ones who object most to paying for the rail services they want to be available "just in case" !.
Well I think it is fair to say that the expectation would be that Hitachi paid, because no-one else has any money !
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