IET 1st class dispute

[Express380]

Neither are part of what makes a train have first class - it merely has to be clearly marked on the train, usually by way of a sign.

So if I sit in First class on a stopper from Glasgow to Dundee or a 377 from Vic to Epsom Downs plus many more examples I now have to buy a first class ticket just because a sign says it's first class.

 

[AlterEgo]

So if I sit in First class on a stopper from Glasgow to Dundee or a 377 from Vic to Epsom Downs plus many more examples I now have to buy a first class ticket just because a sign says it's first class.

Don't those trains have explicit notices on board either on the sections themselves, or on the text displays, that the sections are declassified? If so, you can sit there without extra payment, that is quite clear.

Else, you are relying on an announcement or permission by an authorised person that the first class section is declassified. The NRCoT are quite clear:

15.1

Some train services include first class accommodation. Where first class accommodation is available, the relevant seats and area(s) of the train will be clearly marked. Unless Train Company staff, or notices on the train give you specific permission, you cannot travel in first class accommodation (including standing in corridors or passageways) with a standard class Ticket. This applies even if there are no vacant seats in standard class.
My local station is served almost exclusively by trains with declassified first, and authority to sit there is given by way of removing all the signage, for example. Also, the company explicitly says this: https://www.londonnorthwesternrailway.co.uk/travel-information/onboard-facilities/first-class

 

[weeklycommuter]

That's exactly what they did do prior to May. It has been removed to facilitate the introduction of 175s during the currency of the current timetable. That's common practice elsewhere when removing 1st Class. What's not common practice is advertising Standard Class only, but then charging for sitting in 1st Class accommodation.
If GWR really don't want passengers sitting in 1st Class accommodation on these services then the coaches should be locked out of use.

I can't help but think that the easiest industry solution would be to add to the NRCOT that if a train turns up with First Class, it's got First Class, regardless of what twitter/a third party retailer/some bloke at the pub says ...

Clearly this is a temporary issue for these Exeter to Penzance train services as GWR will change the rolling stock to standard class only Class 175 trains but GWR should have ensure that the information in the May 2025 K1 timetable on their website matches National Railway Timetable 135 and the information in the railway database making clear that in the May 2025 timetable these train services are standard class only.

In the other cases including SWR metro services using Class 450 trains and many GTR train services where some or all of the parts of the train labelled first class are in fact standard class the answer is to remove first class completely from all train services which use this rolling stock (including all GTR train services and all SWR electric train services) and remove the first class labels from the rolling stock.

 

[Express380]

Don't those trains have explicit notices on board either on the sections themselves, or on the text displays, that the sections are declassified? If so, you can sit there without extra payment, that is quite clear.

Else, you are relying on an announcement or permission by an authorised person that the first class section is declassified. The NRCoT are quite clear:

15.1

Some train services include first class accommodation. Where first class accommodation is available, the relevant seats and area(s) of the train will be clearly marked. Unless Train Company staff, or notices on the train give you specific permission, you cannot travel in first class accommodation (including standing in corridors or passageways) with a standard class Ticket. This applies even if there are no vacant seats in standard class.
My local station is served almost exclusively by trains with declassified first, and authority to sit there is given by way of removing all the signage, for example. Also, the company explicitly says this: https://www.londonnorthwesternrailway.co.uk/travel-information/onboard-facilities/first-class

No they don't have special notices or at the very least haven't on my occasions travelling on them

Anyway I have contacted GWR and await their response with hopefully some clarity on the subject

 

[AlterEgo]

No they don't have special notices or at the very least haven't on my occasions travelling on them

If it's marked as first class, then absent a notice, permission, or announcement, no, you can't sit there, and if you do, you can be asked to pay an upgrade if one exists, or asked to leave.

It's a myth that the passenger timetable is authoritative on whether a particular carriage has first class; I have no idea where people get this from.

 

[Express380]

It's a myth that the passenger timetable is authoritative on whether a particular carriage has first class; I have no idea where people get this from.

This clearly hits home with you, and I am sorry for that, but you should at least understand the confusion taking place amongst people as people source information in multiple different places

 

[AlterEgo]

This clearly hits home with you, and I am sorry for that, but you should at least understand the confusion taking place amongst people as people source information in multiple different places

I genuinely do not understand the confusion. What, in particular, makes you think the first class carriage which has unexpectedly turned up, is declassified? A symbol in the timetable or something you saw on RTT? I don't get why?

Do you think that when a trolley turns up on a train with no advertised catering in the timetable or on RTT that the items on it are de facto free, or perhaps the trolley is invisible?

Do you think that a reservation is actually compulsory on this train? Is RTT authoritative for that? https://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/service/gb-nr:Y23337/2025-05-21/detailed

Or is it just authoritative when you like the novelty of sitting in an "unexpected" first class carriage and hope to use it to justify sitting there and not paying? I'm not criticising the behaviour, but I think the confusion is not really as great as people claim. The passenger contract is really quite simple. GWR can enforce first class on trains which do not routinely carry it as long as the section is clearly marked and as long as they do not communicate otherwise.

 

[Express380]

Do you think that when a trolley turns up on a train with no advertised catering in the timetable or on RTT that the items on it are de facto free, or perhaps the trolley is invisible?

Tell me how often that happens if anything the advertised trolley does not appear, happy to agree with most of your points but this one is just daft.

No it's not just RTT ok so how about this a 458 appears on a Waterloo to Weybridge it has first class marked you cannot buy a 1st class ticket for that route anywhere ticket office,ticket machine booking office,guard & no upgrade available the route used to have 10 cars and is now 8, by your logic just because it has signs to state it is first class that space cannot be used wasting space on a very full route.

And it's nothing about a novelty my point is it's lost capacity I find most standard class seats perfectly adequate.

 

[30907]

People who support this provision I assume on principle don’t pay for things they take off the trolley when one materialises on a train with no advertised catering, I guess.

Usually the trolley is accompanied by a human being who offers products for sale - that is the same whether the trolley is advertised or not.

Or if the electronic data says the train is made up of a single unit, ACDF, and a double set turns up, you can’t go in the “bonus” set?

The electronic timetable data doesn't say that - it tells you what the train is timed for, which has no bearing on the question.
But it (and the pdf timetable) may say "standard class only" - meaning that a 1st class ticket holder has no recompense if they choose to take it - AND IMO they have no exclusive right to a first class seat should one appear.

The retailer says it is standard class only, the timetable says it has first class but tickets can't be bought for it. The timetable and electronic data don't even agree with each other.

No, the national timetable says standard only.

 

[weeklycommuter]

If it's marked as first class, then absent a notice, permission, or announcement, no, you can't sit there, and if you do, you can be asked to pay an upgrade if one exists, or asked to leave.
It's a myth that the passenger timetable is authoritative on whether a particular carriage has first class; I have no idea where people get this from.

The National Conditions of Rail Travel include the following statement. The seats marked first class are for first class ticket holders only when first class accommodation is stated to be available on the train service unless like the rear first class sections of the Thameslink Class 700 trains there is notification that the seats can be used by passengers holding standard class tickets or Train Company Staff declare the removal of first class on the train service.

https://assets.nationalrail.co.uk/e8xgegruud3g/77fuBWp62YPSrGwBP1mNQX/5f912e6484a2dc7efbad3b4ed0c9b383/National_Rail_Conditions_of_Travel_2024.pdf

15.1 Some train services include first class accommodation. Where first class accommodation is available, the relevant seats and area(s) of the train will be clearly marked. Unless Train Company staff, or notices on the train give you specific permission, you cannot travel in first class accommodation (including standing in corridors or passageways) with a standard class Ticket. This applies even if there are no vacant seats in standard class.

 

[Krokodil]

it’s pretty stupid to have a section of the train where there’s this niggling uncertainty over whether it can be used or not

NRCOT seems pretty clear to me:

Unless Train Company staff, or notices on the train give you specific permission, you cannot travel in first class accommodation

So if the accommodation says that it is First Class, then it is First Class. Unless there is a sign or verbal authorisation to the contrary.

No it's not just RTT ok so how about this a 458 appears on a Waterloo to Weybridge it has first class marked you cannot buy a 1st class ticket for that route anywhere ticket office,ticket machine booking office,guard & no upgrade available the route used to have 10 cars and is now 8, by your logic just because it has signs to state it is first class that space cannot be used wasting space on a very full route.

Waterloo to Weybridge? A first class single is either £18.10 via Surbiton or £23.10 Any Permitted. You may however be able to get a weekend upgrade for £5. Bargain!

And it's nothing about a novelty my point is it's lost capacity I find most standard class seats perfectly adequate.

I didn’t see if you mentioned earlier whether Standard Class was full & standing or not.

Even if you can't buy first class fares for these Exeter/Plymouth to Penzance

I'm still struggling to work out how you were unable to buy a first class fare. Any TVM, Booking Office clerk or Guard could have sold you one for £12 (or whatever the walk-up fare is for the journey you were making).

 

[saismee]

No? First class ticket holders can sit there

First class tickets aren't available for the service, so... which ticket holders?

or the company can charge upgrades.

Sold by whom exactly? Not all DOO services have anyone but the driver present.

I do agree though that according to the NRCoT no first class accommodation is allowed to be used unless explicitly declassified. In this case, it's strange as GWR mention first and it's displayed in the train, but the national timetable and retailer say it isn't available. I also strongly agree with yorkie that it should be declassified if not marked as first in the timetable, as it is otherwise unused space on the train. A more specific statement from GWR would be very helpful here.

No, the national timetable says standard only.

My mistake, I forgot about that. The GWR timetable states first class is available, though it's very vauge.

On another note, GN's first class sections on 387s are so poorly displayed that I have accidentally sat in there for a few minutes before realising. It really is just standard class with a fancy name!!

 

[Express380]

Waterloo to Weybridge? A first class single is either £18.10 via Surbiton or £23.10 Any Permitted. You may however be able to get a weekend upgrade for £5. Bargain!


I didn’t see if you mentioned earlier whether Standard Class was full & standing or not.


I'm still struggling to work out how you were unable to buy a first class fare. Any TVM, Booking Office clerk or Guard could have sold you one for £12 (or whatever the walk-up fare is for the journey you were making).

Ok to the first point should of said to Addlestone forgot Alton/Basingstoke routes stop there
Second point correct I didn't
When you look online all booking sites don't recognise this as a first class service

I do agree though that according to the NRCoT no first class accommodation is allowed to be used unless explicitly declassified. In this case, it's strange as GWR mention first and it's displayed in the train, but the national timetable and retailer say it isn't available. I also strongly agree with yorkie that it should be declassified if not marked as first in the timetable, as it is otherwise unused space on the train. A more specific statement from GWR would be very helpful here.

I agree with this 100% and appreciate peoples points on the NRCoT very good to acquaint myself with and as soon as I have a response from GWR I will post it here.

 

[Krokodil]

Ok to the first point should of said to Addlestone

£23.10, or the £5 weekend upgrade.

Second point my train was fine

So the complaint about the use of capacity is moot then. You weren't even being forced to stand as an alternative.

When you look online all booking sites don't recognise this as a first class service

So? You can still pay an excess onboard or a Weekend First upgrade if available.

 

[AlterEgo]

Tell me how often that happens if anything the advertised trolley does not appear, happy to agree with most of your points but this one is just daft.

No, it's perfectly valid as a point. I had it last year on a service from Pembroke Dock owing to the staff member being caught up in disruption, not that "whether it happens often" matters.

The point is, you have no grounds to suggest RTT or the public timetable is authoritative. Both say all sorts of things about train services, and whether a "bonus" trolley or "bonus" first class carriage appears doesn't mean you can use either for free. And even where the data is restrictive, like saying reservations are compulsory, they in fact are usually not!

The passenger contract is really clear about what you're entitled to, and it's up to GWR to say otherwise. And they haven't, so far, and the guard was within their right to state that the first class carriage was marked and it wasn't declassified.

No it's not just RTT ok so how about this a 458 appears on a Waterloo to Weybridge it has first class marked you cannot buy a 1st class ticket for that route

Not relevant even if true (it isn't, I note!). I can buy a first class ticket from Rugby (or many, many origins further afield) to Weybridge, that a ticket can't be sold a first class for a particular flow doesn't mean the trains you use de facto "have no first class". What matter is whether the TOC tells you it's declassified. And I expect they usually do on that route; I used to use the stoppers from Woking into Waterloo and a Desiro would occasionally work the service; SWT (as it then was) declassified with announcements and notices.

anywhere ticket office,ticket machine booking office,guard & no upgrade available the route used to have 10 cars and is now 8, by your logic just because it has signs to state it is first class that space cannot be used wasting space on a very full route.

Of course it can, if the TOC or guard declassifies it. As is often the case.

And it's nothing about a novelty my point is it's lost capacity I find most standard class seats perfectly adequate.

Well, sit in standard class then?

 

[weeklycommuter]

NRCOT seems pretty clear to me:
So if the accommodation says that it is First Class, then it is First Class. Unless there is a sign or verbal authorisation to the contrary.

It is not clear. The NRCOT statement "Some train services include first class accommodation. Where first class accommodation is available, the relevant seats and area(s) of the train will be clearly marked." can be read to exclude train services which are stated to be standard class only as these train services do not include first class accommodation. The statement refers to train services including first class accommodation not trains including first class accommodation.

 

[AlterEgo]

Usually the trolley is accompanied by a human being who offers products for sale - that is the same whether the trolley is advertised or not.

Yes, it's almost like if it appears, it appears, right? It's not like it doesn't exist.

The electronic timetable data doesn't say that - it tells you what the train is timed for, which has no bearing on the question.

On booking sites - the train type and where reservations may be made.

But it (and the pdf timetable) may say "standard class only" - meaning that a 1st class ticket holder has no recompense if they choose to take it

Also agreed, if there is no first class accommodation provided.

- AND IMO they have no exclusive right to a first class seat should one appear.

In your opinion, yes, but that is not grounded in the Conditions of Travel, which form the passenger contract.

 

[Krokodil]

can be read to exclude train services which are stated to be standard class only

Only if you went out of your way to misinterpret it.

 

[Express380]

No, it's perfectly valid as a point. I had it last year on a service from Pembroke Dock owing to the staff member being caught up in disruption, not that "whether it happens often" matters.

The point is, you have no grounds to suggest RTT or the public timetable is authoritative. Both say all sorts of things about train services, and whether a "bonus" trolley or "bonus" first class carriage appears doesn't mean you can use either for free. And even where the data is restrictive, like saying reservations are compulsory, they in fact are usually not!

The passenger contract is really clear about what you're entitled to, and it's up to GWR to say otherwise. And they haven't, so far, and the guard was within their right to state that the first class carriage was marked and it wasn't declassified.


Not relevant even if true (it isn't, I note!). I can buy a first class ticket from Rugby (or many, many origins further afield) to Weybridge, that a ticket can't be sold a first class for a particular flow doesn't mean the trains you use de facto "have no first class". What matter is whether the TOC tells you it's declassified. And I expect they usually do on that route; I used to use the stoppers from Woking into Waterloo and a Desiro would occasionally work the service; SWT (as it then was) declassified with announcements and notices.


Of course it can, if the TOC or guard declassifies it. As is often the case.


Well, sit in standard class then?

Ok you seem very irritated by this it seems, as I said I have emailed GWR by recommendation of forum staff and will post the response here once it has been emailed to me.

At the end of the day if you are happy with wasted space (regardless of all your responses) travelling around all day then that is fine I don't care where I sit, but if passengers are standing with no standard seats left regardless of how many those wasted 1 1/2 carriages could be used because much to your likely surprise they barely ever are! That is my point which is why when the 175s enter this issue will be resolved but until then this is the problem. And to confess I know you will say it is no argument but that is my opinion and at least hope you can understand that.

 

[weeklycommuter]

Only if you went out of your way to misinterpret it.

I agree with post #5 in the following thread.

Is first class declassified Reading to Waterloo?

Hi guys, just a question I’m pretty sure I know the answer too. From Reading to Waterloo, the train has first class but I’m the timetable it is marked as standard class only. That means I am entitled to sit in the first class area on a standard class ticket?

www.railforums.co.uk

 

[AlterEgo]

Ok you seem very irritated by this it seems

No, I'm pointing out what the Conditions of Travel say and what you're entitled to following your dispute with a member of staff who hadn't declassified the train. This time it was a guard, next time it'll be an RPI, and as you say, you don't care where you sit, so this might help you avoid some conflict.

as I said I have emailed GWR by recommendation of forum staff and will post the response here once it has been emailed to me.

That would be good. Perhaps they will brief for staff to declassify the trains using the methods in the passenger contract! That is what most train companies end up doing.

At the end of the day if you are happy with wasted space (regardless of all your responses) travelling around all day then that is fine I don't care where I sit, but if passengers are standing with no standard seats left

...but they were not.

regardless of how many those wasted 1 1/2 carriages could be used because much to your likely surprise they barely ever are! That is my point which is why when the 175s enter this issue will be resolved but until then this is the problem.

There are 190 standard seats on the 3-car 175s and 290 standard seats on a 5-car IET even accounting for the additional bonus first class wasted space, so what problem is being resolved by this?

 

[Express380]

No, I'm pointing out what the Conditions of Travel say and what you're entitled to following your dispute with a member of staff who hadn't declassified the train. This time it was a guard, next time it'll be an RPI, and as you say, you don't care where you sit, so this might help you avoid some conflict.


That would be good. Perhaps they will brief for staff to declassify the trains using the methods in the passenger contract! That is what most train companies end up doing.


...but they were not.


There are 190 standard seats on the 3-car 175s and 290 standard seats on a 5-car IET even accounting for the additional bonus first class wasted space, so what problem is being resolved by this?

First point I agree with and appreciate as well as the second.
Third was an example I had witnessed on other services to/from Plymouth and Exeter although admittedly not mine.
Fourth point I was under the impression that they would work in 5 car formations so would be a good replacement for IET if it's just 3 cars then you would be very much correct with your question at the end.

 

[bramling]

No, I'm pointing out what the Conditions of Travel say and what you're entitled to following your dispute with a member of staff who hadn't declassified the train. This time it was a guard, next time it'll be an RPI, and as you say, you don't care where you sit, so this might help you avoid some conflict.


That would be good. Perhaps they will brief for staff to declassify the trains using the methods in the passenger contract! That is what most train companies end up doing.


...but they were not.


There are 190 standard seats on the 3-car 175s and 290 standard seats on a 5-car IET even accounting for the additional bonus first class wasted space, so what problem is being resolved by this?

If we take a real example from the 1990s. Letchworth to King’s Cross service, booked for 6/313, and not denoted in the timetable as conveying first. In reality the service fairly often turned up 4/317 or 4/365, so loss of two complete carriages compared to what was booked (not to mention a loss of seats from 2+2 seating on some of these train types).

So the ability to use first was very welcome, but even then there was a lot of disclarity, however in the end it was confirmed that first class could be used on *any* service where the timetable denoted it wasn’t conveyed.

I’m sure this was always the official position, though it seems like this has got lost in corporate memory over the years. Is it the case that some TOCs have started forming their own interpretation of things?

The discretion afforded to staff was however that on such services first could be locked out of use if desired and if practicable. This used to happen on, for example, class 205s when working Ashford-Hastings, presumably as a measure to deter vandalism, much like a few preserved railways do nowadays.

 

[Honestviews]

In GWR’s published timetable pdf there is a solid square icon indicating that this particular service does carry 1st class accomodation.

https://www.gwr.com/-/media/gwr-sc-website/files/plan-journey/timetables/2025/Train-times-18-May-to-13-December/K1-train-times-18-May-to-13-December-2025-v2.pdf

Why does a solid square icon indicate 1st? According to the key 1st is indicated by a square block with the figure 1 in the nuddi

If it's marked as first class, then absent a notice, permission, or announcement, no, you can't sit there, and if you do, you can be asked to pay an upgrade if one exists, or asked to leave.

It's a myth that the passenger timetable is authoritative on whether a particular carriage has first class; I have no idea where people get this from.

But surely if the timetable shows therw is no 1st class and there are no 1st tickets for that train then I most people would think you could sit there.

 

[Darandio]

Why does a solid square icon indicate 1st? According to the key 1st is indicated by a square block with the figure 1 in the nuddi

Read the key again. Solid square indicates 'Intercity Express (IET) train. First Class accommodation and seat reservations are available'

 

[drueberflug]

Though this example isn't on GWR, what would happen if there is just no first class fare on the route, even if there are services with First Class service? (e.g. Manchester Airport-Matlock)

You can't excess to a fare that just doesn't exist I'd say...

 

[Honestviews]

Read the key again. Solid square indicates 'Intercity Express (IET) train. First Class accommodation and seat reservations are available'

Ah thank you! I saw the key for 1st only. I did wonder why I couldn't see any trains marked as having first

 

[Krokodil]

But surely if the timetable shows therw is no 1st class

What proportion of passengers check the notes on a paper (or PDF) timetable these days? Everyone I know uses a journey planner. Now the journey planner will only offer standard class tickets but if first class accommodation happens to show up as well then so what? If you want to take "no 1st class" as written then by all means pretend that those coaches are invisible and sit in standard. Otherwise ask how much to upgrade.

and there are no 1st tickets for that train

There are first class tickets for that train. Any guard, TVM or booking office could sell or excess one.

then I most people would think you could sit there.

I would never assume that I could sit somewhere marked "First Class" without a First Class ticket, unless I had been explicitly told otherwise by a member of staff or a sign. Common sense, no?

But then I'm of those strange people who read a sign and assume that it is there to be followed. Other people see a "road closed" sign, drive around it and wonder why their car ends up in the river.

 

[furlong]

The National Rail Timetable used to state unequivocally:

Accommodation
All services shown in this Timetable convey Standard Accommodation only unless otherwise shown.

(This was deemed as overriding any notices in particular carriages themselves. Too much bother for the railway to be adding and removing notices every time carriages get switched between services, so it's long established that all such notices may be disregarded if the timetable says so.)

 

[Mainline421]

It's irrelevant because the timetable data is authoritative; if GWR want to offer first class fares on that train, they need to amend the data to reflect that.

The electronic timetable data isn't authoritative, the NRT was previously but this was removed from the NRCoT a long time ago.

Though this example isn't on GWR, what would happen if there is just no first class fare on the route, even if there are services with First Class service? (e.g. Manchester Airport-Matlock)

You can't excess to a fare that just doesn't exist I'd say...

I think this did happen somewhere. It would be available exclusively for those holding long-distance tickets, Interrail, and ALRs I guess.