IET 1st class dispute

[Express380]

So having spoke to the very helpful @yorkie I have been encouraged to make a thread on the issue above so please feel free to add your opinions,experiences.

So for my issue I experienced today I was on an IET from Truro at 13:01 to (What was meant to be Penzance) Redruth so I sat in the 1st class area having double checked via trainsplit,GWR tickets that there was no avalible tickets to purchase for this area and RTT for the standard only part to make sure.

To cut a long story short I was removed by the TM after multiple backs and forths with evidence, stares from him of around 10-15 seconds (not exact) and claimes from him "RTT is nothing really' despite it saying standard only I get removed over "the timetable PDf is showing IET with 1st Class and this is what you have to follow" and just get out Redruth rather than carry on with it.

Is this correct? Even if you can't buy first class fares for these Exeter/Plymouth to Penzance, you have to go off the timetable? I'm not bothered about a bigger seat. I'm perfectly happy in standard it's more the constant wasted space on these services. I hope GWR will sort this out for a very simple capacity boost.

 

[aar0]

Is this a service that starts in Cardiff? If so I upgraded on seat frog once, for £8, and then discovered there’s no first class service, just the seats. I think I was the only person there.

An easy win as you say to offer on train upgrades for £5-15 for a bigger seat, and more space used

 

[Express380]

Is this a service that starts in Cardiff? If so I upgraded on seat frog once, for £8, and then discovered there’s no first class service, just the seats. I think I was the only person there.

An easy win as you say to offer on train upgrades for £5-15 for a bigger seat, and more space used

No I'm only talking about the services starting Exeter and Plymouth to Penzance. Have used seat frog for London journeys though.

 

[yorkie]

So having spoke to the very helpful @yorkie I have been encouraged to make a thread on the issue above so please feel free to add your opinions,experiences.

So for my issue I experienced today I was on an IET from Truro at 13:01 to (What was meant to be Penzance) Redruth so I sat in the 1st class area having double checked via trainsplit,GWR tickets that there was no avalible tickets to purchase for this area and RTT for the standard only part to make sure.

To cut a long story short I was removed by the TM after multiple backs and forths with evidence, stares from him of around 10-15 seconds (not exact) and claimes from him "RTT is nothing really' despite it saying standard only I get removed over "the timetable PDf is showing IET with 1st Class and this is what you have to follow" and just get out Redruth rather than carry on with it.

If you bought from the forum's ticketing site then we would be happy to support you in your complaint against GWR; drop me a message with your GWR reference (once you get one) along with your forum booking reference number.

Is this correct? Even if you can't buy first class fares for these Exeter/Plymouth to Penzance, you have to go off the timetable? I'm not bothered about a bigger seat. I'm perfectly happy in standard it's more the constant wasted space on these services. I hope GWR will sort this out for a very simple capacity boost.

It's absolutely not correct.

A train which is advertised as only conveying standard class accommodation does not, by definition, convey first.

In nearly all cases, first will be declassified. Alternatively if the operator doesn't want anyone sitting there, they can remove public access to the area and remove the coach from public use.

They cannot charge extra; anyone in this situation should pay - under duress - and put in a complaint, seeking a refund, investigation into the conduct/behaviour of the staff, an apology and compensation for the inconvenience/embarrassment.

If you bought from us, please let us know and we will assist.

Normally, I would say that anyone involved in a dispute would create their own thread for their specific issue, however if anyone is specifically travelling on GWR, on one these trains, and experiences this exact issue, then feel free to use this particular thread.

I understand the conduct of the Guard wasn't appropriate and this is completely unacceptable; anyone employed in a customer facing role should behave not only correctly but also in a polite, respectful and appropriate manner. I accept staff make mistakes, but when shown the correct information, they should relent.

Sadly there are insufficient safeguards in place at companies such as GWR to ensure that people in such roles have the appropriate people skills, behaviour, and training. This is a deep-rooted cultural problem that is endemic in several train companies.

Please let us know how you get on.

 

[Watershed]

I'm not sure what 'timetable PDF' the Train Manager was referencing. That train is marked as having standard class facilities only in the timetable data, and has always been that way (so it's not like there was a recent change that he might have been unaware of).

National Rail Enquires is an authoritative source as it is referenced in the NRCoT and it clearly indicates the train as being standard class only, since no first class fares are offered.

The problem is that the condition 15 of the NRCoT, which deals with first class accommodation, doesn't really address what happens when trains (or individual parts of them) are declassified. It assumes that first class facilities are always 'enforced' when they exist:

Where first class accommodation is available, the relevant seats and area(s) of the train will be clearly marked. Unless Train Company staff, or notices on the train give you specific permission, you cannot travel in first class accommodation (including standing in corridors or passageways) with a standard class Ticket.

Taken strictly, that would suggest that any accommodation signed as first class can only be declassified by an on-train notice or a member of staff - and not an indication of 'standard class only' in the timetable.

Similarly, Byelaw 19 refers to what is indicated on the train - not what is in the timetable:

Except with permission from an authorised person, no person shall remain in any seat, berth or any part of a train where a notice indicates that it is reserved for a specified ticket holder or holders of tickets of a specific class

Indeed the only reference in the NRCoT to first class facilities being advertised in the timetable is in condition 31, which deals with refunds for first class ticket holders who can't get a seat. It doesn't state that if first class facilities aren't advertised, you can use the entirety of the train.

As such, although I agree that you were morally in the right, I think the TM may legally speaking have been in the right and you were therefore perhaps wise to back down.

It is certainly worth enquiring with GWR what their policy is when this happens. If you get it in writing from them that the first class accommodation is declassified and can be used by standard class ticket holders, you would be on much stronger ground if you refused to move in future.

 

[sh24]

There was a 9 car IET (2022ish) that used to connect out of the Pullman at Plymouth for all stations to Penzance. I used First on this more than once without issue.

 

[Darandio]

I'm not sure what 'timetable PDF' the Train Manager was referencing. That train is marked as having standard class facilities only in the timetable data, and has always been that way (so it's not like there was a recent change that he might have been unaware of).

The 'timetable PDF' has the solid square icon for this service which then denotes

'Intercity Express (IET) train. First Class accommodation and seat reservations are available'

 

[Express380]

The 'timetable PDF' has the solid square icon for this service which then denotes

The problem is that the condition 15 of the NRCoT, which deals with first class accommodation, doesn't really address what happens when trains (or individual parts of them) are declassified. It assumes that first class facilities are always 'enforced' when they exist

These two issues are the things preventing simple declassified 1st

If you bought from the forum's ticketing site then we would be happy to support you in your complaint against GWR; drop me a message with your GWR reference (once you get one) along with your forum booking reference number.

It's absolutely not correct.

A train which is advertised as only conveying standard class accommodation does not, by definition, convey first.

In nearly all cases, first will be declassified. Alternatively if the operator doesn't want anyone sitting there, they can remove public access to the area and remove the coach from public use.

They cannot charge extra; anyone in this situation should pay - under duress - and put in a complaint, seeking a refund, investigation into the conduct/behaviour of the staff, an apology and compensation for the inconvenience/embarrassment.

If you bought from us, please let us know and we will assist.

Normally, I would say that anyone involved in a dispute would create their own thread for their specific issue, however if anyone is specifically travelling on GWR, on one these trains, and experiences this exact issue, then feel free to use this particular thread.

I understand the conduct of the Guard wasn't appropriate and this is completely unacceptable; anyone employed in a customer facing role should behave not only correctly but also in a polite, respectful and appropriate manner. I accept staff make mistakes, but when shown the correct information, they should relent.

Sadly there are insufficient safeguards in place at companies such as GWR to ensure that people in such roles have the appropriate people skills, behaviour, and training. This is a deep-rooted cultural problem that is endemic in several train companies.

Please let us know how you get on.

Thanks again Yorkie, will get onto GWR shortly I didn't buy from the forum in this case but will in future and didn't pay under duress as feel like I'm playing to the TM I'd rather leave than stay and pay

 

[yorkie]

First class doesn't exist on that train any more than it exists on a CrossCountry 170, or Southeastern, and many other examples.

It's a long standing principle that coaching stock that has accommodation marked as '1st class' can be used on any standard class only service, however that doesn't mean first class fares can be charged.

I experienced this problem back when GWR operated HSTs with a first class coach on such services; the Guard wanted to charge us. I called customer services who said he was wrong. I handed him my phone and he was incredibly rude to customer services. In any other job, that would be a serious disciplinary offence, however I have very little confidence that appropriate action would have been taken against the Guard, sadly.

Some things never change in the rail industry.

 

[hornbeampark]

In GWR’s published timetable pdf there is a solid square icon indicating that this particular service does carry 1st class accomodation.

https://www.gwr.com/-/media/gwr-sc-website/files/plan-journey/timetables/2025/Train-times-18-May-to-13-December/K1-train-times-18-May-to-13-December-2025-v2.pdf

 

[yorkie]

In GWR’s published timetable pdf there is a solid square icon indicating that this particular service does carry 1st class accomodation.

https://www.gwr.com/-/media/gwr-sc-website/files/plan-journey/timetables/2025/Train-times-18-May-to-13-December/K1-train-times-18-May-to-13-December-2025-v2.pdf

It's irrelevant because the timetable data is authoritative; if GWR want to offer first class fares on that train, they need to amend the data to reflect that.

 

[transportphoto]

It's irrelevant because the timetable data is authoritative; if GWR want to offer first class fares on that train, they need to amend the data to reflect that.

Authoritative according to what? It’d be helpful to understand points of reference to back up this claim.

 

[yorkie]

Authoritative according to what? It’d be helpful to understand points of reference to back up this claim.

Consumer law applies to railway ticketing; the customer will be informed that the train conveys standard only seating, and will not be offered a first class fare.

The opinion of any member of railway staff, or the policy of any train company, cannot override this.

Contract law also applies; if a customer is told that a train only conveys standard class, and that first class is not available for purchase, then that can be considered a contractual term.

If anyone is in any doubt about any apparent contradiction, then under consumer law, the interpretation that is most favourable to the customer is that which must prevail.

Notwithstanding the above principle, RDG considers the data feed "accurate", therefore it is GWR's PDF document which is inaccurate, where it differs from the data feed:

https://www.rspaccreditation.org/downloadPublic.php?did=1QTh9zrrUTnvucxN2ng8Fgj8lcyX6HQ0ZqlqcC0bfkCtOeapbW

RDG Accreditation is the service which facilitates this and provides the following assurances to the TOCs,
customers and TIS suppliers:
a) Ensures passengers are able to purchase valid interoperable and interavailable tickets to travel, based on accurate timetable and fares data.

 

[transportphoto]

Contract law also applies; if a customer is told that a train only conveys standard class, and that first class is not available for purchase, then that can be considered a contractual term.

Not intending to argue with you - I agree with your points regarding consumer and contract law being relevant.

Have you an example of a booking site or similar which will actively tell someone that the train only conveys standard accommodation (or that it specifically does not have first)? Is this widespread?

To play devils advocate, the lack of First Class tickets does not equal lack of First Class.

 

[yorkie]

Booking Engine

www.lner.co.uk

13:01 Truro to Penzance 26/05/2025
Arrive 13:40
Duration 0h 39m
Status On time

Great Western Railway Service from Truro to Penzance

13:01
Depart
Truro

13:40
Arrive
Penzance

Facilities

Seat reservations are recommended

This part of your journey has standard class seating only

Tickets available for this service
Flexible tickets

Off-Peak Day Single
Travel is allowed via any permitted route.
£9.10

Anytime Day Single
Travel is allowed via any permitted route.
£14.60

 

[Hadders]

Interestingly, the eNRT (table 135) shows that there is no 1st class on the 12:01 from Truro to Penzance (the 09:26 from Exeter St Davids).

My understanding is it is the GB Passenger Timetable (now known as the eNRT) that is authoratitive in this situation rather than any 'locally produced' timetable publicity from a train operator.

 

[Express380]

Interestingly, the eNRT (table 135) shows that there is no 1st class on the 12:01 from Truro to Penzance (the 09:26 from Exeter St Davids).

My understanding is it is the GB Passenger Timetable (now known as the eNRT) that is authoratitive in this situation rather than any 'locally produced' timetable from a train ioperator.

That's some solid evidence right there

Here is timetable 135 showing no 1 for 1st class above 10:27 Exeter to Penzance

 

[Jan Mayen]

Wouldn't it be easier to mark all IET operated services as having 1st Class, and offer 1st Class fares?
It's what I would do if I was running GWR (which probably explains why I'm not!)

 

[weeklycommuter]

Wouldn't it be easier to mark all IET operated services as having 1st Class, and offer 1st Class fares?
It's what I would do if I was running GWR (which probably explains why I'm not!)

Whatever their policy they need to ensure that the information in the timetables on their website is correct and matches the information in the National Railway Timetables and in all railway databases. They have clearly failed to do this in the timetable K1 on their website. That is sloppy and inexcusable. This incorrect information in the K1 timetable on the GWR website is the cause of this dispute.

 

[Goldfish62]

Wouldn't it be easier to mark all IET operated services as having 1st Class, and offer 1st Class fares?
It's what I would do if I was running GWR (which probably explains why I'm not!)

That's exactly what they did do prior to May. It has been removed to facilitate the introduction of 175s during the currency of the current timetable. That's common practice elsewhere when removing 1st Class. What's not common practice is advertising Standard Class only, but then charging for sitting in 1st Class accommodation.

If GWR really don't want passengers sitting in 1st Class accommodation on these services then the coaches should be locked out of use.

 

[robbeech]

Wouldn't it be easier to mark all IET operated services as having 1st Class, and offer 1st Class fares?
It's what I would do if I was running GWR (which probably explains why I'm not!)

Probably yes.

This is a concept that’s quite familiar with all the vastly expanding incompetence on the railway.

The rules are the rules, there’s no getting away from this. If they want to change the rules there’s usually very little stopping them doing so, and after the rules have changed the new rules are the rules, but until that point they shouldn’t just make things up because that’s what they’d like the rules to be.

In this scenario the train has no 1st class accommodation according to the authoritative timetable data. As such it should be declassified or locked out of use. If they change it, then the problem goes away. It’s worse for passengers but the rules are the rules.

 

[Peter Mugridge]

That's exactly what they did do prior to May. It has been removed to facilitate the introduction of 175s during the currency of the current timetable. That's common practice elsewhere when removing 1st Class. What's not common practice is advertising Standard Class only, but then charging for sitting in 1st Class accommodation.

If GWR really don't want passengers sitting in 1st Class accommodation on these services then the coaches should be locked out of use.

What are they going to do if someone holding an actual first class ticket turns up for one of these services and they've locked it out of use?

 

[yorkie]

What are they going to do if someone holding an actual first class ticket turns up for one of these services and they've locked it out of use?

First class ticket holders sit in standard accomodation when travelling on trains which only convey standard class.

Journey planners show which trains convey first class.

Anyway, we seem to be drifting off topic, so I suggest we leave it there, until @Express380 receives a response from GWR, or unless anyone else experiences an issue while travelling.

 

[Express380]

First class ticket holders sit in standard accomodation when travelling on trains which only convey standard class.

Journey planners show which trains convey first class.

Anyway, we seem to be drifting off topic, so I suggest we leave it there, until @Express380 receives a response from GWR, or unless anyone else experiences an issue while travelling.

Sounds daft but I'm struggling where to complain! Are the social media messengers ok? Or does someone have an email?

 

[Goldfish62]

Sounds daft but I'm struggling where to complain! Are the social media messengers ok? Or does someone have an email?

[email protected]

 

[Express380]

[email protected]

Fantastic thanks

 

[bramling]

Probably yes.

This is a concept that’s quite familiar with all the vastly expanding incompetence on the railway.

The rules are the rules, there’s no getting away from this. If they want to change the rules there’s usually very little stopping them doing so, and after the rules have changed the new rules are the rules, but until that point they shouldn’t just make things up because that’s what they’d like the rules to be.

In this scenario the train has no 1st class accommodation according to the authoritative timetable data. As such it should be declassified or locked out of use. If they change it, then the problem goes away. It’s worse for passengers but the rules are the rules.

This has been going on for years. I remember the same old issue on WAGN in the 1990s.

Completely agree that it’s poor - it’s pretty stupid to have a section of the train where there’s this niggling uncertainty over whether it can be used or not, which ultimately worsens the travelling environment for all.

Given how long this issue has persisted, one can only assume the grey mist is deliberate in at least some cases. But totally inexcusable to have train managers, who are supposed to have an expert knowledge of these sorts of things, making up their own rules to fit personal preference.

 

[AlterEgo]

to

Regardless of what the official published timetable and electronic data (as incthis case) says?

People who support this provision I assume on principle don’t pay for things they take off the trolley when one materialises on a train with no advertised catering, I guess. Or if the electronic data says the train is made up of a single unit, ACDF, and a double set turns up, you can’t go in the “bonus” set?

 

[saismee]

I can't help but think that the easiest industry solution would be to add to the NRCOT that if a train turns up with First Class, it's got First Class

How would you purchase a first class ticket on a DOO service if they aren't sold on retailer sites? So we're just supposed to lose 1/5 of the train's size because its busy being used to transport air?

Regardless of what the official published timetable and electronic data (as incthis case) says?

The retailer says it is standard class only, the timetable says it has first class but tickets can't be bought for it. The timetable and electronic data don't even agree with eachother.

 

[AlterEgo]

How would you purchase a first class ticket on a DOO service if they aren't sold on retailer sites? So we're just supposed to lose 1/5 of the train's size because its busy being used to transport air?

No? First class ticket holders can sit there, or the company can charge upgrades.

The retailer says it is standard class only, the timetable says it has first class but tickets can't be bought for it.

So? Just because a flow doesn’t have first class tickets doesn’t mean you can sit there for free. Where’s that written down?

The timetable and electronic data don't even agree with eachother.

Neither are part of what makes a train have first class - it merely has to be clearly marked on the train, usually by way of a sign.