IET 1st class dispute

[Watershed]

Though this example isn't on GWR, what would happen if there is just no first class fare on the route, even if there are services with First Class service? (e.g. Manchester Airport-Matlock)

You can't excess to a fare that just doesn't exist I'd say...

You would have to buy a combination of tickets, or 'overdistance' fares. That was the case for journeys from Worcestershire Parkway to Birmingham immediately after the station opened, for example.

 

[weeklycommuter]

That's exactly what they did do prior to May. It has been removed to facilitate the introduction of 175s during the currency of the current timetable. That's common practice elsewhere when removing 1st Class. What's not common practice is advertising Standard Class only, but then charging for sitting in 1st Class accommodation.
If GWR really don't want passengers sitting in 1st Class accommodation on these services then the coaches should be locked out of use.

For information I just compared National Rail Timetable 135 December 2024 with May 2025. In the December 2024 timetable the 1300 Monday to Friday from Truro to Penzance was the standard class only 1142 Plymouth to Penzance and the 1025 from Exeter St Davids to Plymouth was the first and standard 0800 Cardiff Central to Plymouth. The latter is now terminated at Exeter St Davids and the standard class only 1142 Plymouth to Penzance is extended back to Exeter forming the 1027 Exeter St Davids to Penzance.

First Group issued the following press release on 10 March 2025.

Class 175 trains to help Great Western Railway improve reliability across the network

Great Western Railway (GWR)

www.firstgroupplc.com

Class 175 trains to help Great Western Railway improve reliability across the network
10 Mar 2025
Great Western Railway (GWR) will welcome 26 Class 175 trains to its fleet to help improve punctuality and reliability for customers, replacing older diesel trains that are more expensive and less environmentally friendly to run.
The move marks the first stage of the train operator’s plans to rejuvenate its regional and suburban services while preparing the way for decarbonisation.
The 10 two-car trains and 16 three-car trains are expected to start to enter service in Devon and Cornwall later this year, with the entire fleet expected to be operational from the end of next year.
Able to be connected in four, five and six-car formations, the trains will operate predominantly on the line between Exeter St Davids and Penzance, as well as to Barnstaple and Okehampton.
The Class 175s will release trains to improve performance in other areas of the network.
This boost to the fleet will lead to the removal of some of its oldest and least efficient diesel trains, which have become more expensive to maintain as spare parts become more difficult to find on the open market.

 

[robbeech]

And even where the data is restrictive, like saying reservations are compulsory, they in fact are usually not!

My Bold,

I think this sums it up really. They're usually not. But sometimes they are.

It's a myth that the passenger timetable is authoritative on whether a particular carriage has first class; I have no idea where people get this from.

I presume it comes from Consumer law whereby any ambiguity would fall in favour of the consumer, which in this case is a passenger who has read the data that states Standard Class Only accommodation only and has therefore been unconcerned about where they need to sit on the train because of this. The fact that some seats are different and are very often used as first class isn't relevant as they've read in official documentation that the train they are catching contains Standard Class Only accommodation. They've possibly heard of this concept known as "Declassified First" so will be confident that they're just taking advantage of the bigger seat on the day.


Some years ago when EMR (EMT at the time) borrowed some SWT 158 or 159 and used them on the Robin Hood line they had a first class section in them, it wasn't announced it was declassified, there were no signs suggesting it was declassified, nor were there attempts to obscure signs for first class. No guards had any issue with people sitting there because that would be ridiculous. Even the 1 guard at EMT as was that WOULD normally go out of his way to cause problems for passengers (a few heads nodding whilst reading this as they know who that is) didn't even have an issue with it.

So this comes all the way back round to what i said the other day. The railway needs to just change the rules so that first class is first class unless it is specifically noted that it is declassified. This eliminates any ambiguity. Yes, it might be worse for some passengers but not many. I suspect the OP here will have been the only passenger to be in what would normally be the first class carriage with a standard class ticket on that day. It's pretty pathetic that the railway allows this sort of nonsense to carry on, i'd be embarrassed to say i was involved.

 

[Class 466]

Had similar years ago with GWR on their Brighton workings - they train I caught was using a hired in SWT 159 - guard tried to tell me I was wrong for sitting in First - ended up winning though with him letting me sit there 'this time'.

 

[WelshBluebird]

Surely its no different to the 165s when they were first introduced on the Cardiff to Portsmouth and local bristol services? Nobody here would be claiming their ex first class areas should be out of bounds for standard class customers surely?

 

[AlterEgo]

Surely it’s no different to the 165s when they were first introduced on the Cardiff to Portsmouth and local bristol services? Nobody here would be claiming their ex first class areas should be out of bounds for standard class customers surely?

At the risk of being tedious… were those sections declassified by way of a notice or announcement or permission or removal of the markings denoting first class?

 

[WelshBluebird]

At the risk of being tedious… were those sections declassified by way of a notice or announcement or permission or removal of the markings denoting first class?

I think they have been in nearly all units now thanks to refurbishments etc, but certainly on day one they hadn't been. And it did actually take a while for at least some of the general public to realise those areas were able to be used.

 

[weeklycommuter]

At the risk of being tedious… were those sections declassified by way of a notice or announcement or permission or removal of the markings denoting first class?

The GWR Cardiff Central to Portsmouth Harbour train services are standard class only and there are no first class markings on any of the rolling stock used for these train services.

The only GWR rolling stock that has any seats labelled first class is the 5-car and 9-car IETs. Everything else is standard class only.

 

[Jan Mayen]

The GWR Cardiff Central to Portsmouth Harbour train services are standard class only and there are no first class markings on any of the rolling stock used for these train services.

The only GWR rolling stock that has any seats labelled first class is the 5-car and 9-car IETs. Everything else is standard class only.

Some of the Gatwick to Reading services have First Class don't they?

 

[AlterEgo]

Some of the Gatwick to Reading services have First Class don't they?

Yes they do.

 

[weeklycommuter]

Some of the Gatwick to Reading services have First Class don't they?

There is a thread on this.

GWR First Class signage (or lack of) on the North Downs Line

Moderator note: Split from https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/autumn-refresh-for-gwr-class-165-166-turbos.222366/ This was the 'first class'(!) section of 165103 yesterday. I don't think it is acceptable for GWR to have abandoned providing any first class attributes and labelling for its...

www.railforums.co.uk

GWR provide information about their trains in a download referenced with the following link on their website. The information about the 3-car class 165 trains which they appear to use on the North Downs line is ambiguous. The IETs are listed as having first class and standard class and the other classes are listed as standard class only.

https://www.gwr.com/-/media/gwr-sc-website/files/passenger-assist/2025/Facilities-Guide-April-2025.pdf

 

[Millisle]

So if I sit in First class on a stopper from Glasgow to Dundee or a 377 from Vic to Epsom Downs plus many more examples I now have to buy a first class ticket just because a sign says it's first class.

ScotRail stoppers on routes like that never have notices, never have announcements and you are never charged. Search engines do not offer first class fares for these services. I just checked GWR's site and it does not offer a Ist class fare for the journey in dispute either. After the standard fare it helpfully adds in brackets (all passengers).

 

[Sleepy]

I'd be inclined to buy walk up standard single then get 1st class excess from ticket office ( it isn't their concern what train you are going to use) just to annoy that guard

 

[RobertsN]

The GWR Cardiff Central to Portsmouth Harbour train services are standard class only and there are no first class markings on any of the rolling stock used for these train services.

The only GWR rolling stock that has any seats labelled first class is the 5-car and 9-car IETs. Everything else is standard class only.

Sorry to disagree. I am almost certain some of the GWR 166s, and (I believe some) 3-car 158s on the line still appear to carry 1st class seating.
For background, I travel on the line weekly south of Westbury.

 

[weeklycommuter]

Sorry to disagree. I am almost certain some of the GWR 166s, and (I believe some) 3-car 158s on the line still appear to carry 1st class seating.
For background, I travel on the line weekly south of Westbury.

I attach the April 2025 GWR facilities guide downloaded from the GWR website. This indicates that Class 165/1 - 3 carriage turbo diesel trains have some labels at one end for first class seating for use in the Reading to Gatwick Airport services but everything else except the IETs is standard class only.

The Portsmouth Harbour to Cardiff Central service is standard class only and has been standard class only for many years. I once heard an announcement at Fratton Station about first class on this service but SWR acknowledged that this was an error and these services have been standard class only for many years.

There is not supposed to be any rolling stock with any first class labels on the Portsmouth Harbour to Cardiff Central route. The preferred rolling stock is 4-car made of two 2-car class 158 sets total 260 seats as it is all 2+2 seating but they are also using combinations of 3-car class 166 and 2-car class class 165 trains. I use this service at the Solent end and I have not myself seen any trains with first class labels. It is very poor to mislead rail passengers if GWR use any trains with any first class labels for these services and if I find this I shall immediately complain to GWR.

The dispute being discussed in this thread is a result of the train operator using rolling stock with some seats and areas that have first class labelling for a service which is standard class only.

I have also made clear to GWR my view that the Reading to Gatwick Airport service should be standard class only. Clearly the rolling stock they are using on this route is not of an acceptable quality to be considered first class.

 

[185143]

I was on one of these IET services when a few diagrams first became IET operated. It may have even been vice a Castle set, I'm not sure. It was a local journey and the first class carriage stopped right in front of me so I boarded there and took a seat.

A trolley came round which wasn't booked-I distinctly remember checking and catering was not advertised. I was asked if I had a 1st class ticket, to which I confirmed I did not and asked if I needed to move. It was a very lightly loaded service so regardless of whatever the official position may or may not be, I would have happily just moved if they'd asked me to. They told me I didn't need to move, but would have happily offered the complimentary range had I actually had a 1st class ticket.

That seemed a very customer friendly way to manage it really.

 

[Bikeman78]

So having spoke to the very helpful @yorkie I have been encouraged to make a thread on the issue above so please feel free to add your opinions,experiences.

So for my issue I experienced today I was on an IET from Truro at 13:01 to (What was meant to be Penzance) Redruth so I sat in the 1st class area having double checked via trainsplit,GWR tickets that there was no avalible tickets to purchase for this area and RTT for the standard only part to make sure.

To cut a long story short I was removed by the TM after multiple backs and forths with evidence, stares from him of around 10-15 seconds (not exact) and claimes from him "RTT is nothing really' despite it saying standard only I get removed over "the timetable PDf is showing IET with 1st Class and this is what you have to follow" and just get out Redruth rather than carry on with it.

Is this correct? Even if you can't buy first class fares for these Exeter/Plymouth to Penzance, you have to go off the timetable? I'm not bothered about a bigger seat. I'm perfectly happy in standard it's more the constant wasted space on these services. I hope GWR will sort this out for a very simple capacity boost.

I can't believe this keeps happening. There are hundreds of standard only services worked by class 377 or 450 every day. Anyone can sit in the first class seats. If the service is advertised as standard only in the public timetable, the guard has two options. Lock out the first class or let anyone sit there.

 

[duffield]

First class tickets aren't available for the service, so... which ticket holders?
...

Technically, first class tickets are available for these services - "Anytime" 1st tickets are valid on all services regardless of whether you can or do book them specifically for a given service.

 

[Bikeman78]

If it's marked as first class, then absent a notice, permission, or announcement, no, you can't sit there, and if you do, you can be asked to pay an upgrade if one exists, or asked to leave.

It's a myth that the passenger timetable is authoritative on whether a particular carriage has first class; I have no idea where people get this from.

It's more common in the south east. Units with first class have been turning up on standard only metro routes for as long as I've been alive. You can't even buy first class tickets for a lot of journeys on those lines.

 

[WelshBluebird]

The dispute being discussed in this thread is a result of the train operator using rolling stock with some seats and areas that have first class labelling for a service which is standard class only.

And this is exactly what happened on the Cardiff pompey services when the turbos were introduced.

It may well be solved now, but given we are talking what the actual rules are what happened a few years ago is still relevant.

I'll also say im not so convinced that all turbos used on the Cardiff pompey services have had all their 1st class signage removed, but will also add that these days I tend to end up on the Cardiff Taunton services instead so happy to be corrected there.

But certainly when there turbos were first introduced on the route this exact scenario did occur.

 

[Bikeman78]

If we take a real example from the 1990s. Letchworth to King’s Cross service, booked for 6/313, and not denoted in the timetable as conveying first. In reality the service fairly often turned up 4/317 or 4/365, so loss of two complete carriages compared to what was booked (not to mention a loss of seats from 2+2 seating on some of these train types).

So the ability to use first was very welcome, but even then there was a lot of disclarity, however in the end it was confirmed that first class could be used on *any* service where the timetable denoted it wasn’t conveyed.

I’m sure this was always the official position, though it seems like this has got lost in corporate memory over the years. Is it the case that some TOCs have started forming their own interpretation of things?

The discretion afforded to staff was however that on such services first could be locked out of use if desired and if practicable. This used to happen on, for example, class 205s when working Ashford-Hastings, presumably as a measure to deter vandalism, much like a few preserved railways do nowadays.

This tallies with my understanding of the situation over the past 40 years. I've never seen anyone evicted or being charged extra. Uckfield trains were standard only at weekends. As you say, the small number of first class compartments were locked out with a carriage key.

 

[Deepgreen]

No? First class ticket holders can sit there, or the company can charge upgrades.


So? Just because a flow doesn’t have first class tickets doesn’t mean you can sit there for free. Where’s that written down?


Neither are part of what makes a train have first class - it merely has to be clearly marked on the train, usually by way of a sign.

This is where GWR utterly fails - its external first class delineation is dire and the internal is not good either. This is an example from a recent trip on my local line on a 165 - 'GWR' is mentioned four times on each door and "first class' is in unnecessarily small type size given the space available and the plethora of other stickers and signs everywhere. Why is it seemingly SO hard for TOCs to show first class properly (unless they actually want people to miss it)?!

Some of the Gatwick to Reading services have First Class don't they?

All do now (the latest in the farcical on/off situation of recent years) - but you wouldn't know it from the guards' knowledge/willingness to enforce it!

 

[Mainline421]

The dispute being discussed in this thread is a result of the train operator using rolling stock with some seats and areas that have first class labelling for a service which is standard class only.

The service in question is not intended to Standard Class only, it just hasn't been marked as conveying First Class in the electronic data (which is wrong so often lately something should probably be done).

 

[Express380]

Here is the answer folks.

Thank you for contacting Great Western Railway. I am very sorry to hear that there was an issue with First Class bookings for your journey taken on the 23/05/25 at 13:01 Truro-Penzance.

Although there was a First Class carriage on this particular service this was not available to be booked. Therefore Standard Class passengers were not able to sit in this carriage.

There can be multiple reasons why a First Class carriage is on a service and not be able to be booked. For example it could be joining another service which has First Class Hosts onboard and is merely being unused and transported to another location.

If you would like to book First Class then you will need to find a service that has these tickets available, or purchase and use the Standard Class seats.

If you have any further queries please do not hesitate to get back in touch.

Thank you again for contacting Great Western Railway and we look forward to welcoming you onboard again soon.

 

[weeklycommuter]

Here is the answer folks.

Thank you for contacting Great Western Railway. I am very sorry to hear that there was an issue with First Class bookings for your journey taken on the 23/05/25 at 13:01 Truro-Penzance.

Although there was a First Class carriage on this particular service this was not available to be booked. Therefore Standard Class passengers were not able to sit in this carriage.

There can be multiple reasons why a First Class carriage is on a service and not be able to be booked. For example it could be joining another service which has First Class Hosts onboard and is merely being unused and transported to another location.

If you would like to book First Class then you will need to find a service that has these tickets available, or purchase and use the Standard Class seats.

If you have any further queries please do not hesitate to get back in touch.

Thank you again for contacting Great Western Railway and we look forward to welcoming you onboard again soon.

If they do not want people to use it they should lock it out of use.

 

[Express380]

If they do not want people to use it they should lock it out of use.

Agreed the reasons seem rather daft.

 

[duffield]

If they do not want people to use it they should lock it out of use.

But there are some people who can use it - those with anytime 1st tickets. Even though they can't book these specific services they are fully entitled to travel on them in 1st. They might want partial refunds if 1st was declassified (not saying they would necessarily get them of course!).

 

[Bikeman78]

But there are some people who can use it - those with anytime 1st tickets. Even though they can't book these specific services they are fully entitled to travel on them in 1st. They might want partial refunds if 1st was declassified (not saying they would necessarily get them of course!).

What would those people do if a 150 or 158 turned up? Assuming the service is advertised as standard only then what is the policy regarding partial refunds?

 

[AlterEgo]

What would those people do if a 150 or 158 turned up? Assuming the service is advertised as standard only then what is the policy regarding partial refunds?

They would have been entitled to nothing because the train wasn't advertised as having first class.

 

[Sleepy]

Here is the answer folks.

Thank you for contacting Great Western Railway. I am very sorry to hear that there was an issue with First Class bookings for your journey taken on the 23/05/25 at 13:01 Truro-Penzance.

Although there was a First Class carriage on this particular service this was not available to be booked. Therefore Standard Class passengers were not able to sit in this carriage.

There can be multiple reasons why a First Class carriage is on a service and not be able to be booked. For example it could be joining another service which has First Class Hosts onboard and is merely being unused and transported to another location.

If you would like to book First Class then you will need to find a service that has these tickets available, or purchase and use the Standard Class seats.

If you have any further queries please do not hesitate to get back in touch.

Thank you again for contacting Great Western Railway and we look forward to welcoming you onboard again soon.

Purchase the standard class seats (and what do 1st class hosts have to do with anything ?) Words fail me ..........