If a train is booked to stop, must it, in fact, physically do so?

[70014IronDuke]

​Not talking about request stops, of course. (Perhaps some should be so!)

I'm thinking in particular of early morning services booked to stop at lightly used (sometimes extraordinarily so) stations which are not request stops and where 99.8% of the time nobody will be alighting and 95% of the time nobody will be getting on.

For example - the first train off Skegness, the 07.09 to Nottingham, which is booked to stop at Havenhouse (a grand total of 162 passengers last year) and Thorpe Culvert (286).

I could imagine, on a majority of days, especially in winter, the guard could check the few passengers on board, then tip off the driver "nobody for XY stop, driver" and, while slowing down ready to stop, the driver could easily see that nobody is waiting and just accelerate away without coming to a stand. (Would the guard need to give 2 buzzes?)

It would certainly help to recover 30-45 seconds or so if things were running late, bit I'm not sure of the operating rules. I kind of feel sure this would have happened in days of old whether strictly allowed or not - but these days, what with all the satellite speed gubbins, control could, presumably, pick such moves up?

 

[Bertie the bus]

Saving 30 seconds isn't a good reason for doing as you suggest. As for Havenhouse NRE shows it as having a waiting room. How is the driver going to see people in the waiting room and why should people in there ensure they make themselves visible to the driver if it isn't a request stop? If it's hammering down with rain then staying in the waiting room until the train has stopped isn't unreasonable behaviour.

 

[Quakkerillo]

What if there is a passenger who is being dropped off by car, and for one reason or the other, they prefer to wait in the car until the train is almost there. At both stations, it takes only 30 seconds to get down on the platform from parking/stopping the car on the nearby road.
In that case, the driver won't see anyone at the station, assume it's clear to drive off, only for someone who saw the train approach to get out of a car.

Or with some stops with old-fashioned concrete shelters, where you might want to sit and stay put (rain, wind, being elderly) until the train has stopped.

Unless they change such stops into actual request stops, I can think of some more examples where using a request stop approach for regular calls could cause some issues.

 

[FordFocus]

This would be classed as a fail to call and be placed onto the drivers safety of the line record.

A few lines do 'request stops' similar to what you described but they cause issues when people don't realise they need to clearly stand on the platform but they wait outside the station smoking or hide in a concrete shelter.

 

[70014IronDuke]

What if there is a passenger who is being dropped off by car, and for one reason or the other, they prefer to wait in the car until the train is almost there. At both stations, it takes only 30 seconds to get down on the platform from parking/stopping the car on the nearby road.
In that case, the driver won't see anyone at the station, assume it's clear to drive off, only for someone who saw the train approach to get out of a car.

Or with some stops with old-fashioned concrete shelters, where you might want to sit and stay put (rain, wind, being elderly) until the train has stopped.

Unless they change such stops into actual request stops, I can think of some more examples where using a request stop approach for regular calls could cause some issues.

Fair points, sort of - but how long does the train need to stop to see if there is anyone lurking in a car in the carpark, then kissing mum and dropping a pen and stopping to pick that up?

 

[PHILIPE]

Often happens in order to recover disrupted service by skipping calls.

 

[37 418]

Conon Bridge and Beauly are often missed on the Far North / Kyle services and it has often been complained about in the local press.

 

[70014IronDuke]

This would be classed as a fail to call and be placed onto the drivers safety of the line record.
... .

So, you are saying the rule book says a) the train must physically stop if booked to do so
, and, presumably,
b) the guard must ascertain that nobody is in a waiting room or lurking in the car park and wanting to board, before giving the right away?

That's all very good - but then how come trains quite frequently leave stations a minute of two early? Shouldn't the guard, in that case, have that placed on their records?

 

[A Challenge]

My solution would be to make some stations 'part time' request stops (ie request stop before and/or after XX:XX only or the first/last train of the day only)

 

[signallerscot]

Conon Bridge and Beauly are often missed on the Far North / Kyle services and it has often been complained about in the local press.

Missing out Beauly and Conon Bridge was banned by Phil Verster after he attended a meeting of the local community council and promised that the practice would stop, but I hear the ban has been quietly rescinded since he left...

 

[A Challenge]

Missing out Beauly and Conon Bridge was banned by Phil Verster after he attended a meeting of the local community council and promised that the practice would stop, but I hear the ban has been quietly rescinded since he left...

They'll probably be up in arms about it again once they realise!

 

[Bertie the bus]

Often happens in order to recover disrupted service by skipping calls.

No it doesn't. Control often decide to skip stops to recover time but the guard/driver of a train don't and these stops are skipped, not turned into pseudo-request stops.

 

[70014IronDuke]

Missing out Beauly and Conon Bridge was banned by Phil Verster after he attended a meeting of the local community council and promised that the practice would stop, but I hear the ban has been quietly rescinded since he left...

I was not suggesting trains should not stop when there ARE people waiting in order to make up time.

That's a different issue. And presumably in such cases, skipping stops is decided by control?

 

[LAX54]

So, you are saying the rule book says a) the train must physically stop if booked to do so
, and, presumably,
b) the guard must ascertain that nobody is in a waiting room or lurking in the car park and wanting to board, before giving the right away?

That's all very good - but then how come trains quite frequently leave stations a minute of two early? Shouldn't the guard, in that case, have that placed on their records?

In cases where it reported that a train has departed early, it will be investigated and dealt with by the Manager,
Another thought on 'Faling to Stop'... Guard has been through, no one appears to want to get off, then some person changes their mind for whatever reason, and needs to go back from whence they came, only to see the station come an go.

If a train is late, Control may well authorise a Driver to FTS at certain stops to make up time, this is also recorded on the TRUST screen as FTS.

The Railway is not a make it up as you go along Company, there are Rules and Regs to abide by, and oddly, stopping at stations is one of them

 

[Bertie the bus]

My solution would be to make some stations 'part time' request stops (ie request stop before and/or after XX:XX only or the first/last train of the day only)

Just to make it even more confusing for passengers why not only when the first day of the month is a Wednesday, but not for months that have 31 days?

 

[Johncleesefan]

So, you are saying the rule book says a) the train must physically stop if booked to do so
, and, presumably,
b) the guard must ascertain that nobody is in a waiting room or lurking in the car park and wanting to board, before giving the right away?

That's all very good - but then how come trains quite frequently leave stations a minute of two early? Shouldn't the guard, in that case, have that placed on their records?

I don't think the rule book dwells too much on station duties other than the module ss2 Station duties haha. And that only really talks about method of dispatch under numerous variations.
If it's on your diagram then you stop, guard opens doors, closes doors, buzz buzz off we go, let's not complicate things for the sake of making up 30 seconds and opening up the potential for operational incidents

 

[otomous]

So, you are saying the rule book says a) the train must physically stop if booked to do so
, and, presumably,
b) the guard must ascertain that nobody is in a waiting room or lurking in the car park and wanting to board, before giving the right away?

That's all very good - but then how come trains quite frequently leave stations a minute of two early? Shouldn't the guard, in that case, have that placed on their records?

Are you bored? Trains stop if scheduled to do so, or if it's a request stop,on request. They stop for at least 20 seconds at my TOC, others may vary. Signaller or control may order drivers to not stop or make extra stops due to various circumstances. Not stopping is a fail to call. Leaving early is frowned upon also. This usually happens by mistake, especially if something is different about a given trip.

 

[37 418]

Missing out Beauly and Conon Bridge was banned by Phil Verster after he attended a meeting of the local community council and promised that the practice would stop, but I hear the ban has been quietly rescinded since he left...

That wouldn't surprise me at all ..

 

[PHILIPE]

No it doesn't. Control often decide to skip stops to recover time but the guard/driver of a train don't and these stops are skipped, not turned into pseudo-request stops.

But the OP didn't differentiate as to who makes the decision.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

I've known it happen in the past: the penultimate down service on Christmas eve from Sheffield to Huddersfield was the train, in the early-mid 1990s. Guard walked through, saw no pax for Berry Brow or Lockwood, driver slowed for stops before pulling away once established as clear. Wouldn't be done now, of course!

 

[A Challenge]

Just to make it even more confusing for passengers why not only when the first day of the month is a Wednesday, but not for months that have 31 days?

On train and at station announcements further up the line saying ask guard (this would need to be handled differently on DOO and signs at said stations (plus announcements) saying you need to flag down the train to get on. Making it as obvious as possible should be compulsory!

 

[6Gman]

Fair points, sort of - but how long does the train need to stop to see if there is anyone lurking in a car in the carpark, then kissing mum and dropping a pen and stopping to pick that up?

Easy.

Until booked departure time.

 

[6Gman]

Just to make it even more confusing for passengers why not only when the first day of the month is a Wednesday, but not for months that have 31 days?

There used to be bus services around Llanrwst which only ran on Llanrwst Market and Fair Days.

Market Day was Tuesday.

Fair Day was the Wednesday following the first Tuesday of each month.

On such Fair Days there was no Market Day on the Tuesday.

Perhaps the Conway Valley train request stops could be similar?

 

[kentman]

A good few years ago now, I was on a peak morning SE metro service to Cannon St, metro service always called at London Bridge, but this one for some reason this one did not. The Pax were not amused. At Cannon St all I can describe as a mob descended on the Cab end, the driver quickly put up his window and hid, leaving the platform staff to fend everyone off. I've still no idea why it did not call.

 

[sjoh]

There used to be bus services around Llanrwst which only ran on Llanrwst Market and Fair Days.

Market Day was Tuesday.

Fair Day was the Wednesday following the first Tuesday of each month.

On such Fair Days there was no Market Day on the Tuesday.

Perhaps the Conway Valley train request stops could be similar?

So, Fair day is 2nd weds of the month, market days all other tuesdays? Not that complicated!

 

[A Challenge]

So, Fair day is 2nd weds of the month, market days all other tuesdays? Not that complicated!

The first Wednesday is not always the day after the first Tuesday (second Wednesday if the month starts on the Wednesday.

 

[Antman]

A good few years ago now, I was on a peak morning SE metro service to Cannon St, metro service always called at London Bridge, but this one for some reason this one did not. The Pax were not amused. At Cannon St all I can describe as a mob descended on the Cab end, the driver quickly put up his window and hid, leaving the platform staff to fend everyone off. I've still no idea why it did not call.

Probably a mistake on somebody's part but these things happen.

A guard told me the only time they can skip stations is if it is a set down only call and the guard has made sure nobody wants to get off. This is usually late night trains which might be replaced by buses due to engineering works.

 

[scrapy]

I know there was an incident recently where a driver was held outside a station where he was terminating due to lack of platform space and a failed unit in the station. He had no passengers on and the unit was due to go into sidings adjacent to the station for stabling. He agreed with the signaller to go straight onto the sidings bypassing the platforms and relieving a lot of congestion around the station.

A few days later he got done for failing to call as the TOC involved got fined for a part cancellation. So common sense doesn't always prevail.

 

[Dr Hoo]

I know there was an incident recently where a driver was held outside a station where he was terminating due to lack of platform space and a failed unit in the station. He had no passengers on and the unit was due to go into sidings adjacent to the station for stabling. He agreed with the signaller to go straight onto the sidings bypassing the platforms and relieving a lot of congestion around the station.

A few days later he got done for failing to call as the TOC involved got fined for a part cancellation. So common sense doesn't always prevail.

On the contrary. The incentive on the TOC to try and make sure that its own units don't fail in future remained in place.

Imagine if safety 'penalties' could only be applied if somebody was actually killed or injured.

 

[Bromley boy]

I know there was an incident recently where a driver was held outside a station where he was terminating due to lack of platform space and a failed unit in the station. He had no passengers on and the unit was due to go into sidings adjacent to the station for stabling. He agreed with the signaller to go straight onto the sidings bypassing the platforms and relieving a lot of congestion around the station.

A few days later he got done for failing to call as the TOC involved got fined for a part cancellation. So common sense doesn't always prevail.

As a driver if you're given an instruction by the signaller not to call somewhere, you follow it. That wouldn't be classed as a fail to call, unless there was something more going on.