If Arriva were to lose the XC franchise...

[route:oxford]

In the event that Arriva were to lose the XC franchise in much the same way that National Express & GNER lost the East Coast franchise, what would be the best outcome?

Was considering it myself this morning, and concluded that the best option would be for...

DB/Chiltern to take on the Manchester-Reading services.
Grand Central to take on the South/Southwest-Newcastle/Scotland services.

Would that be a reasonable split, and what would be the best use of current rolling stock for the split? (Working from the full compliment of Chiltern/DB/GC/XC including clearly published planned acquisitions).

Much as I'm sure many of the readers would like to see an early morning Manchester-Reading service operated by 121020 - it's a bit unlikely.

 

[jamesontheroad]

 

[Aictos]

Indeed,

 

[37401]

best option?

find someone to take over, splitting it up would not be good and getting GC would be a bad idea as they are open access

 

[thefab444]

Transfer some of the ex-Citylink services, e.g. Nottingham - Cardiff and Stansted/Leicester - Birmingham to London Midland, along with the full compliment of 170s.

Acquire some more rolling stock - whatever this may be - for expansion of the key XC network, so it that it once again includes Brighton, Liverpool, and the NW.

 

[Pumbaa]

Not IF, if the insiders are to be believed, but WHEN.

I firmly agree wtih Celia - give LM the ex-Citylink services with the 170s, and get along with increasing the old XC network with some proper trains.

 

[devon_metro]

In the event that Arriva were to lose the XC franchise in much the same way that National Express & GNER lost the East Coast franchise, what would be the best outcome?

Was considering it myself this morning, and concluded that the best option would be for...

DB/Chiltern to take on the Manchester-Reading services.
Grand Central to take on the South/Southwest-Newcastle/Scotland services.

Would that be a reasonable split, and what would be the best use of current rolling stock for the split? (Working from the full compliment of Chiltern/DB/GC/XC including clearly published planned acquisitions).

Much as I'm sure many of the readers would like to see an early morning Manchester-Reading service operated by 121020 - it's a bit unlikely.

When did Grand Central ever become a contender!!

 

[37401]

When did Grand Central ever become a contender!!

Maybe the OP is hoping for valentas

 

[MCR247]

If it was me, join it up with the West Coast franchise. It makes sense so you can have XC services via West Coast which is quicker than East Coast. Give 170 operated routes to LM which should join with the Midlands franchise

 

[aszu]

why should arriva loose the franchize?

 

[37401]

If it was me, join it up with the West Coast franchise. It makes sense so you can have XC services via West Coast which is quicker than East Coast. Give 170 operated routes to LM which should join with the Midlands franchise

if it were me... http://www.trainpics.net/p61321698.html


then send a voyager onto a 170 route

 

[fgwrich]

why should arriva loose the franchize?

Becasue it is vastly expensive for Arriva to run, Has been a Shambles since day 1, passengers have never been happy with XCs poor service, most staff are unhappy working for XC, Most services are overcrowded and are either late or cancelled, Fares are through the roof...

Ok The Voyagers were orderd by Virgin, but at least Virgin have recently come up with some good ideas for there Voyagers, including retaining the shop whilst increasing the seat numbers, albiet limeted but it shows AXC that it can be done, And Virgins latest idea of Extending the Voyagers by 1 coach for the 5 car 221s and 2 Coaches for the 4 car 221s, with a Pantagraph, to take advantage of being DEMUs and running under the wires...

Nedn't i say more...

Not IF, if the insiders are to be believed, but WHEN.

I firmly agree wtih Celia - give LM the ex-Citylink services with the 170s, and get along with increasing the old XC network with some proper trains.

Transfer some of the ex-Citylink services, e.g. Nottingham - Cardiff and Stansted/Leicester - Birmingham to London Midland, along with the full compliment of 170s.

Acquire some more rolling stock - whatever this may be - for expansion of the key XC network, so it that it once again includes Brighton, Liverpool, and the NW.

Agreed!

Aswell as bring back the Brighton service, if not at least 2 maybe 4 trains a day at least, Bring back the West Coast services, oh and refurbish and extend the voyagers with a Shop/ Buffet Car!

 

[Oswyntail]

If it was me, join it up with the West Coast franchise. It makes sense so you can have XC services via West Coast which is quicker than East Coast. ...

Just where do you think XC run to? I'd love to see (eg) Leeds to Penzance running quicker via the West Coast. That said, I agree that the full Cross Country network should be restored - the "X" in XC

 

[OMGitsDAVE]

If it was me, join it up with the West Coast franchise. It makes sense so you can have XC services via West Coast which is quicker than East Coast. Give 170 operated routes to LM which should join with the Midlands franchise

If the XC Services were to go up the West Coast, all the Birmingham - NE England customers would be fuming with having to change atleast once (most likely at Carlisle).

In my opinion, I would make the XC trains slightly longer by introducing HSTs rather than Voyagers, which would then go on to operate older services such as the Liverpool services.

 

[mumrar]

I'd like to thank fgwrich for his insight into whether I'm happy or not at work. He is wrong, I enjoy working for XC far more than Central Trains and most of my colleagues who came across from Central agree. What basis was the statement about late or cancelled service made upon? Arriva XC have increased the punctuality figures significantly since Virgin days, and as pointed out in a different thread, won awards for the 220 and 221s being the best maintained modern DMU fleet. Cancellations are lower than they were under Virgin aswell. Arriva are currently paying what they are obliged to for the franchise and there are no operational reasons as to why the franchise should be taken off them. So I'm afraid the when rather than if statement is still steaming from the bulls rear end that it recently vacated!

 

[yorkie]

Last Summer most catering staff we encountered seemed very unhappy with XC. Maybe that situation has changed and/or maybe it doesn't apply to guards. But it certainly was the case that some staff were very unhappy indeed, and they were not afraid to tell passengers that was the case - which means they must have had strong feelings about it.

 

[fgwrich]

I'd like to thank fgwrich for his insight into whether I'm happy or not at work. He is wrong, I enjoy working for XC far more than Central Trains and most of my colleagues who came across from Central agree. What basis was the statement about late or cancelled service made upon? Arriva XC have increased the punctuality figures significantly since Virgin days, and as pointed out in a different thread, won awards for the 220 and 221s being the best maintained modern DMU fleet. Cancellations are lower than they were under Virgin aswell. Arriva are currently paying what they are obliged to for the franchise and there are no operational reasons as to why the franchise should be taken off them. So I'm afraid the when rather than if statement is still steaming from the bulls rear end that it recently vacated!

In fairness i did say most, I do know quite a few people who work for AXC, ony of my freinds father is a driver for them, whilst i have friends who work as a guard and driver on them and theyve never been too happy working for arriva...

And pretty much all 80/90% of XC services ive been on this year and spoken to staff theyre not the happiest either...

As for the lateness, well they still seem to be late down this way lateley, last tuesday the 12:07 to bournemouth didnt arrive till i boarded the 12:36 SWT service...And passing through reading nearly everyday last week the only late services there were AXC...FGW Zilch

But for one, AXC is the last TOC i try to use and as ive quite literally had enough of them, i try to avoid them as best as i can...

Last Summer most catering staff we encountered seemed very unhappy with XC. Maybe that situation has changed and/or maybe it doesn't apply to guards. But it certainly was the case that some staff were very unhappy indeed, and they were not afraid to tell passengers that was the case - which means they must have had strong feelings about it.

And from what ive been on recently, still are unhappy...The man with Trolley-what else can you call them - seemed rather unhappy last week...

Even the guard on the 22:45 last friday wasnt in the happiest of moods...Oh sorry, the 22:45 service that actually left at 22:47:roll:

 

[Ferret]

So then FGWrich, how many XC staff have you spoken to? About 10 maybe? How many on board staff do XC employ? For arguments sake, let's say it's 1000. Hardly representative is it?!

The stats also suggest that PPM under Arriva has improved!

I agree with Mumrar - your post bears no relation to the facts...

 

[yorkie]

Is it true to say that former Central staff are likely to be more happy on average, than former Virgin staff? As the conditions have improved for ex-Central but not for ex-Virgin?

 

[mumrar]

Saying the services you've been on are overcrowded, late or cancelled doesn't mean it's the case for all of them. If I asked someone who regularly commuted between Tamworth and New St, they'd say the same about overcrowding and delays too. If I asked the question to an Off-Peak traveller from Gloucester to Newport, they'd probably say we have too many carriages. The fact is PPM is up significantly, as is fleet reliability - remarkable with Tyseley involved on the Turbostars. Rather embarrassingly, the turbostars have a higher miles per casualty figure than the HSTs, despite being so much newer. I'd guess this is down to the poor maintenance under Central, and the 170/1s being hammered into the ground by a TOC who knew their Meridians weren't far away.

 

[royaloak]

I would make the XC trains slightly longer by introducing HSTs rather than Voyagers, which would then go on to operate older services such as the Liverpool services.

Where would you get the HSTs from?

 

[87031]

if it were me... http://www.trainpics.net/p61321698.html


then send a voyager onto a 170 route

thats the future top n tail 31s and no Voyagers

 

[37401]

Becasue it is vastly expensive for Arriva to run, Has been a Shambles since day 1, passengers have never been happy with XCs poor service, most staff are unhappy working for XC, Most services are overcrowded and are either late or cancelled,

How do you know this for a fact?

Ok The Voyagers were orderd by Virgin, but at least Virgin have recently come up with some good ideas for their Voyagers, including retaining the shop whilst increasing the seat numbers, albiet limeted but it shows AXC that it can be done, And Virgins latest idea of Extending the Voyagers by 1 coach for the 5 car 221s and 2 Coaches for the 4 car 221s, with a Pantagraph, to take advantage of being DEMUs and running under the wires...

Yes so its VT`s fault for voyager overcrowing as they are the ones who placed the order not XC, and the VT adding an extra coach thing is just and idea it not actually happened yet has it, also you said "but at least Virgin have recently come up with some good ideas for their Voyagers, including retaining the shop whilst increasing the seat numbers"

Please do list their other great ideas as you have only put 1 and its not really an idea is it, XC chose to remove the shop so its not showing them anything, XC have provided more luggage space so you dont fall over people and peoples oversized luggage...shows virgin it can be done
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Even the guard on the 22:45 last friday wasnt in the happiest of moods...Oh sorry, the 22:45 service that actually left at 22:47:roll:

And whats his mood got to do with you, could be a number of reasons for looking annoyed, long shifts, late finish or something at home

and oh no 2 mins late national disaster...tell me what time did it arrive? as most of the late service ive been on have made up those 2-5 mins

 

[MCR247]

If the XC Services were to go up the West Coast, all the Birmingham - NE England customers would be fuming with having to change atleast once (most likely at Carlisle).

In my opinion, I would make the XC trains slightly longer by introducing HSTs rather than Voyagers, which would then go on to operate older services such as the Liverpool services.

Just where do you think XC run to? I'd love to see (eg) Leeds to Penzance running quicker via the West Coast. That said, I agree that the full Cross Country network should be restored - the "X" in XC

Sorry not making myself clear, I meant running some XC trains via the WC from Edinburgh replacing the current EDB/GLC - BHM currently operated by VT.

 

[37401]

As for the lateness, well they still seem to be late down this way lateley, last tuesday the 12:07 to bournemouth didnt arrive till i boarded the 12:36 SWT service...And passing through reading nearly everyday last week the only late services there were AXC...FGW Zilch

But for one, AXC is the last TOC i try to use and as ive quite literally had enough of them, i try to avoid them as best as i can...

wasnt FGW once one of the most hated TOCs going knowen as First late western, FGW has has some bad times and delays, and now look they are doing quite good IMO as are XC, How often did you pass reading to look at the timekeeping of XC and FGW? for all you know there may have been a FGW delay of 30+mins

oh and its nice to know you avoid XC, we`ll never meet , and one last thing if you wanted to go from Reading to Birmingham how would you get there?

fgwrich RailUK`s own long way round host

 

[Voyager 2093]

If Arriva were to loose the Cross Country Franchise, I reckon it should be put straight back into the hands of Virgin. Virgin have prooved time and time again that they can cope with large franchises and Arriva are struggling to do so just two years in.

I do think Chiltern should be awarded the Manchester to Reading service due to the fact it would give Chiltern a chance to expand thier service and revenue.

 

[Pumbaa]

Arriva are currently paying what they are obliged to for the franchise and there are no operational reasons as to why the franchise should be taken off them. So I'm afraid the when rather than if statement is still steaming from the bulls rear end that it recently vacated!

My post on "case of WHEN, not IF" was made in response to certain industry insiders, such as Mr Miles, who have seen that the franchise payments and growth figures for the XC franchise do not add up at all. When cap and collar kicks in, 2012, the payments will be massive, based on more optimistic forecasts. As such it is reckoned Arriva won't be able to make the payments.

The franchise was "doomed from the start", with the bid team for Arriva being externally sourced. It was the same team that put in the bid for the East Coast franchise, and got turned down as DafT thought the bid too unrealistic. This franchise bid too is optimistic, but not optimistic enough for DafT to turn it down, just like NXEC

Reading tween lines, nobody at Arriva wanted to take charge of the XC franchise when they were awarded it, the MD of AXC is the man who led the bid team.

 

[Aictos]

In my opinion, I would make the XC trains slightly longer by introducing HSTs rather than Voyagers, which would then go on to operate older services such as the Liverpool services.

I would much prefer to keep the 220s but lengthen them to a mix of both 6 and 8 cars long with extra vehicles but at the same time refurbish them down to the body and try and get as much of the components fitted under the floors to free up space within the body which would result in the modified Class 220s being Class 220/2s*.

So the most overcrowded routes would be seeing either 12 car trains or more 8 car trains while the more quieter routes would see either 6 car trains or 8 car trains, either way passengers would see the vast difference in capacity being greatly improved.

*The same kind of refurbishment that WAGN did to some of their 317/1s which then became 317/7s.

It would be nice to have HSTs but due to the shortage of HSTs, I would have little choice but to keep the 220s except during the summer when I would use LHCS instead of HSTs.

 

[Ferret]

I would much prefer to keep the 220s but lengthen them to a mix of both 6 and 8 cars long with extra vehicles but at the same time refurbish them down to the body and try and get as much of the components fitted under the floors to free up space within the body which would result in the modified Class 220s being Class 220/2s*.

So the most overcrowded routes would be seeing either 12 car trains or more 8 car trains while the more quieter routes would see either 6 car trains or 8 car trains, either way passengers would see the vast difference in capacity being greatly improved.

*The same kind of refurbishment that WAGN did to some of their 317/1s which then became 317/7s.

It would be nice to have HSTs but due to the shortage of HSTs, I would have little choice but to keep the 220s except during the summer when I would use LHCS instead of HSTs.

12 coach trains that won't fit on half the platforms at stations XC serve!!! Dear oh dear there are some ridiculous ideas on here sometimes!

LHCS - from where and powered by what?!

 

[mumrar]

Good to see the venerable Virgin get a mention. Their performance is worse than XC, if you get on a Pendo after midday, not only will you share a train with people, probably also with the odour of their excrement too. They've been given their own trainset at a cost of far too many £billions, and it was them who went for the Voyager fleet, to replace the unreliable loco hauled services. Loco haulage is only an option if the locos are new, and with only 30 Class 67s fitting that bill for passengers, it won't happen anytime soon. The reliability of loco and stock would, I'm afraid, be laughable. Lets remember, whilst nostalgic for these old locos, they're much slower, use more fuel, and some don't manage a full day on a preserved line gala at 25mph and below. They cannot cut it in front line service, they'd have to be brand new, and the stock to go with them, so that'll be cheap then.