If St Andrews Get a Station ?

[tbtc]

There's certainly space at Argyle St to rebuild the old station platforms, their being long enough for HSTs is beside the point in my eyes, the station wouldn't serve the ECML

It is relevant, if one of the justifications for a line to St Andrews is to be able to deal with the capacity when the Open is on - a single track line capable of taking a two coach DMU isn't going to be much use (and would still require thousands to be bussed in from Leuchars).

 

[Waverley125]

Have you ever been to St Andrews?

The Argyle street site is easily long enough to build 2 platforms, whether island or separated, capabe of holding a coach of at least 6 coaches length (i.e. double turbostar/221). You could even extend the platforms from the original length and go out onto the North Haugh and have enough room for an HST if you really wanted to.

 

[MidnightFlyer]

I think getting rail back to St Andrews is a big enough task, without factoring in a good few more stations and a whole new line towards Kirkcaldy alongside. That said though, I'm sure I've read within recent months of a campaign to get heavy rail back into Methil from Kirkcaldy.

 

[tbtc]

Would East Coast go through St Andrews and miss out Leuchars or would it continue to go through Leuchars ?

I lived in the town for half my life, and was never convinced of a rail link working

Have you ever been to St Andrews?

Yes, hence finding your idea of three stations in St A (as well as stations at Crail etc) rather "unrealistic"...
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

I'm sure I've read within recent months of a campaign to get heavy rail back into Methil from Kirkcaldy.

That's a more realistic plan - there's quite a large population around Levenmouth (in Fife terms) unserved by rail.

 

[Waverley125]

the station serving the OCH is unrealistic, one serving The Badlands isn't.

 

[tbtc]

the station serving the OCH is unrealistic, one serving The Badlands isn't.

On a list that includes Crail, Pittenweem and Elie I'm really not sure how "realistic" you want to be

 

[Waverley125]

I'm sorry-when did re-opening stations along a line to serve the communities that line passes through become 'unrealistic'? In terms of alternative long-distance travel the Neuk of Fife has a single hourly Stagecoach bus into Edinburgh, which takes between 2 and 3 hours. A rail service would both eat into that, as well as provide opportunities for commuting (i.e. Neuk towns into St Andrews/Dundee/West Fife/Edinburgh) and allow much easier access to the Neuk from the rest of Scotland.

Remember that the Neuk line did used to be known as the 'Holiday line', and that what are now sleepy little towns along the east coast did used to be much busier routes.

Also, the populations of the settlements along the Neuk line are not inconsiderable for that are of the country.

St Andrews-17000
Crail-1750
Anstruther-3500
St Monans-1800
Pittenweem-2000
Largo-2500
Leven-8800
Buckhaven-15000

I think an hourly Edinburgh-Dundee via the Fife Coast service would be well patronised, especially if run fast south of Kirkcaldy (i.e. Dundee, Leuchars, Guardbridge, all stops to Kirkcaldy, Inverkeithing, Haymarket, Edinburgh Waverley)

 

[tbtc]

I'm sorry-when did re-opening stations along a line to serve the communities that line passes through become 'unrealistic'? In terms of alternative long-distance travel the Neuk of Fife has a single hourly Stagecoach bus into Edinburgh, which takes between 2 and 3 hours. A rail service would both eat into that, as well as provide opportunities for commuting (i.e. Neuk towns into St Andrews/Dundee/West Fife/Edinburgh) and allow much easier access to the Neuk from the rest of Scotland.

Remember that the Neuk line did used to be known as the 'Holiday line', and that what are now sleepy little towns along the east coast did used to be much busier routes.

Also, the populations of the settlements along the Neuk line are not inconsiderable for that are of the country.

St Andrews-17000
Crail-1750
Anstruther-3500
St Monans-1800
Pittenweem-2000
Largo-2500
Leven-8800
Buckhaven-15000

I think an hourly Edinburgh-Dundee via the Fife Coast service would be well patronised, especially if run fast south of Kirkcaldy (i.e. Dundee, Leuchars, Guardbridge, all stops to Kirkcaldy, Inverkeithing, Haymarket, Edinburgh Waverley)

Building a station for a village with 1,750 people on an existing line would have a pretty rubbish business case (there are a lot of much bigger places on existing lines that cannot justify a station).

Building a station for a village with 1,750 people and building a brand new line to serve it... no chance.

As far as I understand the line is still in situ between Thornton junction and Methil - I could see the logic in reopening it to serve the population of Leven/ Methil/ Buckhaven (especially as there are Fife Circle services that could be extended down to Methil, without needing new paths over the Forth etc).

For those unfamiliar with the area, the fishing villages of the East Neuk are well worth a visit - think of the best bits of Cornwall without having to deal with Rick Stein/ surfers/ VWs. However they are not rail territory.

 

[PaulLothian]

For a start, where is the land in St Andrews for a nine coach train to sit? (esp given property prices anywhere near the centre)

I am a subscriber to Mark Twain's dictum that 'golf is a good walk spoiled'. Still being indignant about having to duck to avoid several badly driven golf balls which missed the fairway entirely as I walked on a Fife beach adjacent to a golf course at the weekend, could I put forward the concept of compulsory purchase of the large area of links to the northwest of the town...

 

[Waverley125]

Building a station for a village with 1,750 people on an existing line would have a pretty rubbish business case (there are a lot of much bigger places on existing lines that cannot justify a station).

Building a station for a village with 1,750 people and building a brand new line to serve it... no chance.

As far as I understand the line is still in situ between Thornton junction and Methil - I could see the logic in reopening it to serve the population of Leven/ Methil/ Buckhaven (especially as there are Fife Circle services that could be extended down to Methil, without needing new paths over the Forth etc).

For those unfamiliar with the area, the fishing villages of the East Neuk are well worth a visit - think of the best bits of Cornwall without having to deal with Rick Stein/ surfers/ VWs. However they are not rail territory.

If there were a good road alternative or some form of public transport, then yes. But that's the thing. There isn't. A rail alternative is likely to be very competitive compared to road, and would give PT links where the are none currently. Also, those 2000 people in each of those villages don't just sit there-they are commuters into places like Levenmouth, St Andrews, Kirkcaldy and Edinburgh. When you put that link back, you facilitate those flows.

Also, have you tried going to St Andrews, Anstruther or Largo during the summer? The roads there are crammed with people visiting the Fife Coast, and thats only that can make the hour-long drive down back roads to get there. A rail link would be incredible for tourism in that part of the world, even if you don't want the 'wrong sort' getting there.

As for the general argument that 'small places can't justify stations'-you remember Laurencekirk? (Same size as Anstruther). Was predicted 36,000 users, got 64,000. Shockingly, when you provide a public transport system that works, people will use it.

 

[MidnightFlyer]

Trouble is, the more stations, the more expensive, and the less attractive it becomes, for passengers too (because of journey times). I'm sorry, you'll have a hell of a time getting that many new stations nowadays, it's way too over the top for the size of places they serve.

Laurencekirk works well because it's the only station for a good few miles, and serves many conurbations that together total a good number. Your proposals wouldn't. I mean, imagine if Laurencekirk was built along with another six stations serving places along the coast, it wouldn't have half the numbers it has now.

 

[W-on-Sea]

The East Neuk's indeed lovely, and of the villages Crail and Elie are particularly delightful (Anstruther to my mind is less delightful - I unfairly think of it as the "Southend of the East Neuk, although perhaps above all that illustrates just how different the East Neuk is from Southend, but that fish and chip shop almost makes up for it).

I still can't see the railway line as a goer, though. Too much cost for too few passengers. Branch lines in Devon and Cornwall are perhaps a fair comparison - yes, they get tourist traffic (but tourism to the SW is far higher than to Fife - while Fife's climate is pretty good, in summertime, as Scotland goes, it's still rather cooler than Cornwall), but are surely not even close to being profit-making concerns year round.

AS for public transport in the East Neuk, well, when I lived up that way (OK 15+ years ago), I found it surprisingly good for such a sparsely populated area. Hourly (and reliable) buses linking all the main villages with the major towns, at least hourly, until midnight, seven days a week? (the old route 95 which then ran from Dundee-St Andrews-East Neuk-Leven being the backbone), and then the various Stagecoach express services started going there at all. Not sure what the current situation is (last time I was in the area was 3 years ago), but I'd be greatly surprised - given Stagecoach's innovation - if it were greatly worse.

Realistically - bus link to rail at either Leuchars or Kirkcaldy strikes me as most realistic way of linking the East Neuk villages to the rail network. A railway's a nice idea - but (other than as some kind of potential privately run seasonal tourist attraction - although, again, I don't think this is the right part of the UK for this to work...) - it's a fantasy.

Leuchars-St Andrews I can see as a goer. And maybe a link to the Leven/Buckhaven/Methil conurbation from the west, too. But the bit inbetween....just wouldn't get anywhere near enough passengers to make it worthwhile.

 

[142094]

Trouble is, the more stations, the more expensive, and the less attractive it becomes, for passengers too (because of journey times). I'm sorry, you'll have a hell of a time getting that many new stations nowadays, it's way too over the top for the size of places they serve.

Exactly - more stations equals more stops and longer journey times, which will no doubt not be attractive to car drivers, who will continue to drive. In areas like this it is probably better to have one or two park and ride stations in the main towns, decent transport links between those and the smaller villages and a frequent, fast train service.

 

[Train Pilchard]

Slightly off topic but having read in this thread there are no more paths on the Forth surprised me.

What is the hourly limit for crossings and what are these services? I'm from the wrong side of the country. I wouldn't have thought the Fife Circle, Dundee and Aberdeen services with the odd extra EC and VX to Aberdeen would have it at the limit.

 

[tbtc]

(since this thread appears to have moved down the coast to Crail, may I recommend the book shop there? well worth a visit for anyone in the area looking for somewhere to lose an hour or two )

If there were a good road alternative or some form of public transport, then yes. But that's the thing. There isn't. A rail alternative is likely to be very competitive compared to road, and would give PT links where the are none currently. Also, those 2000 people in each of those villages don't just sit there-they are commuters into places like Levenmouth, St Andrews, Kirkcaldy and Edinburgh. When you put that link back, you facilitate those flows

AIUI the hourly 95 (the only bus service through Crail) is at least partly tendered by Fife Council and often gets a Solo when I see it. But you think that Crail could justify a station?

IAlso, have you tried going to St Andrews, Anstruther or Largo during the summer? The roads there are crammed with people visiting the Fife Coast, and thats only that can make the hour-long drive down back roads to get there. A rail link would be incredible for tourism in that part of the world, even if you don't want the 'wrong sort' getting there

At the risk of getting boring, yes, I've lived there long enough, I know what the roads are like. A railway needs more than a few sunny summer weekends to keep it going though.

I'm not sure of your patronising comment about the "wrong sort" - maybe you refer to people like me?

IAs for the general argument that 'small places can't justify stations'-you remember Laurencekirk? (Same size as Anstruther). Was predicted 36,000 users, got 64,000. Shockingly, when you provide a public transport system that works, people will use it.

As Matt points out, Laurencekirk has a big catchment area (e.g. if you are in Brechin and want to go to Aberdeen then it's easier to go to Laurencekirk than deal with the traffic in Montrose).

Laurencekirk was a station on an existing line (rather than needing a new line built).

Laurencekirk serves a much bigger area. Crail would serve only Crail. However a station at Methil (which I am in favour of) would serve a decent sized railhead (maybe if you think St Andrews has "badlands" you shouldn't wander the streets of Methil though... )

Slightly off topic but having read in this thread there are no more paths on the Forth surprised me.

What is the hourly limit for crossings and what are these services? I'm from the wrong side of the country. I wouldn't have thought the Fife Circle, Dundee and Aberdeen services with the odd extra EC and VX to Aberdeen would have it at the limit.

At privatisation the service over the bridge was three trains in a typical hour (anticlockwise Fife Circle, clockwise Fife Circle, Aberdeen service).

Things increased under National Express (with most stations on the Fife Circle seeing a doubling of services, with new hourly services to Markinch and Cowdenbeath). Recent changes under First (with Government support) have seen hourly Dundee and Perth services introduced (partly using the 158s that were "on loan" from Northern until the Bathgate line was wired up, but are now permanent units at FSR).

So now its seven trains in an average hour (anticlockwise Fife Circle, clockwise Fife Circle, stopper to Cowden, stopper to Thornton, Perth service, Dundee semi-fast, fast Aberdeen service).

Whilst seven trains an hour is possible on a lot of lines, its a long way from Haymarket to Inverkeithing and the speed differential between those stopping at South Gyle/ Dalmeny/ North Queensferry/ Dalgety Bay/ Aberdour/ Burntisland/ Kinghorn and those that are first stop Inverkeithing (or first stop Leuchars) after leaving Haymarket means there's really not much room for error (as well as room for freight) on a two track line.

 

[D1009]

(
Whilst seven trains an hour is possible on a lot of lines, its a long way from Haymarket to Inverkeithing and the speed differential between those stopping at South Gyle/ Dalmeny/ North Queensferry/ Dalgety Bay/ Aberdour/ Burntisland/ Kinghorn and those that are first stop Inverkeithing (or first stop Leuchars) after leaving Haymarket means there's really not much room for error (as well as room for freight) on a two track line.

That's the problem with 2 track lines, you CAN get more paths in, but at the expense of journey time on the fast trains. Now I supose we'll have the usual silly arguments about why we need fast trains.

 

[tbtc]

That's the problem with 2 track lines, you CAN get more paths in, but at the expense of journey time on the fast trains. Now I supose we'll have the usual silly arguments about why we need fast trains.

Its tricky.

Before National Express started improving things there was less of a problem (the anticlockwise Fife Circle could easily get to Thornton Junction - where it turned off - there before being caught up by the Aberdeen service - and the Aberdeen service stopped at Inverkeithing and Kirkcaldy).

Now, the Fife Circle has an additional stop at Dalgety Bay (a new station) whilst the Aberdeen service doesn't stop until Leuchars.

So they've tried to speed up the fast service at the same time as slowing down the slow one and doubling the number of trains on a section of line that's roughly fifteen miles with little chance for overtaking.

That wouldn't be a problem on the Southern Region, where everything is more efficient (and the differences between "fast" and "slow" are much less significant, but it's created a big bottle neck in Fife.

 

[robertclark125]

As I've explained already, the way to get round pathing problems is to split the train. Having 2x170s, with the train splitting at Leuchars, front 3 cars to Dundee, rear to St Andrews, gets round the pathing problems you have over the forth bridge.

It also has the benefit of increasing capacity for passengers south of Leuchars.

 

[D1009]

As I've explained already, the way to get round pathing problems is to split the train. Having 2x170s, with the train splitting at Leuchars, front 3 cars to Dundee, rear to St Andrews, gets round the pathing problems you have over the forth bridge.

It also has the benefit of increasing capacity for passengers south of Leuchars.

Sorry to go a bit off topic. The age old problem of splitting and joining comes from a number of accidents caused by drivers foretting what signal aspect they had passed. Permissive working for passeger trains has been decliing. I believe there was a serious accident at Stafford some time ago involving an electric hauled overnight holiday train and a late night 310 operated local service. This obviously wasn't a joiner, but there has been a more recent move at Newton Abbot involving 158s. Since then some moves have been designated "coningency use only",usually for places where permissive working is in place but not used. Taunton springs to mind. Since then Network Rail are now more amenable to the idea, but not where the protecting signsl is a long way from the train it protects.

Furthermore it can be a performance risk when one bit of the train is there and the other isn't.

 

[Liam]

As far as I understand the line is still in situ between Thornton junction and Methil - I could see the logic in reopening it to serve the population of Leven/ Methil/ Buckhaven (especially as there are Fife Circle services that could be extended down to Methil, without needing new paths over the Forth etc).

While it is in situ, it hasn't been used in over a decade and probably needs replacing. On the other hand it would also give the Kingdom of Fife Railway Preservation Society a link to the main line.