If you could re-shape the TfL lines

[NorthKent1989]

What changes would you make if you were head of TfL and money were no object?

For me I would do this:

- The Uxbridge branch of the Piccadilly line would become the District line and the Ealing Broadway branch would become the Piccadilly line.

- Uxbridge branch of the Metropolitan line would be an extension of the Jubilee line

- Bakerloo line would be extended to Camberwell, Peckham then onto Lewisham

- Northern line split (I think this is going to happen anyway) into two lines: the Charing Cross Branch would be renamed to the Hampstead & West End Line (Battersea to Edgware) with an extension to Clapham Junction and the Bank branch into the City & South London line (Morden to Mill Hill and High Barnet)

- Hammersmith & City and Circle lines merged into one line: Hammersmith & Circle line

 

[Jorge Da Silva]

What changes would you make if you were head of TfL and money were no object?

For me I would do this:

- The Uxbridge branch of the Piccadilly line would become the District line and the Ealing Broadway branch would become the Piccadilly line.

- Uxbridge branch of the Metropolitan line would be an extension of the Jubilee line

- Bakerloo line would be extended to Camberwell, Peckham then onto Lewisham

- Northern line split (I think this is going to happen anyway) into two lines: the Charing Cross Branch would be renamed to the Hampstead & West End Line (Battersea to Edgware) with an extension to Clapham Junction and the Bank branch into the City & South London line (Morden to Mill Hill and High Barnet)

- Hammersmith & City and Circle lines merged into one line: Hammersmith & Circle line

- why?

- why?

- makes sense

- Makes sense

- Why? Keep them as two separate lines doesn't have any benefits

 

[swt_passenger]

Don’t TfL already have their own plans to send additional Piccadilly trains to Ealing Broadway, and additional Districts to Richmond and Wimbledon. We have a thread about it somewhere:

Piccadilly line to Ealing Broadway

I've been hearing on this forum that the Piccadilly line is to take over the Ealing Broadway Branch from the District line when will this be?

www.railforums.co.uk

It’s to do with finding somewhere with the capacity for the eventual higher frequency Piccadilly service to terminate, and the knock on benefit is to significantly increase capacity on the Wimbledon and Richmond branches.

 

[NorthKent1989]

Don’t TfL already have their own plans to send additional Piccadilly trains to Ealing Broadway, and additional Districts to Richmond and Wimbledon. We have a thread about it somewhere:

Piccadilly line to Ealing Broadway

I've been hearing on this forum that the Piccadilly line is to take over the Ealing Broadway Branch from the District line when will this be?

www.railforums.co.uk

It’s to do with finding somewhere with the capacity for the eventual higher frequency Piccadilly service to terminate, and the knock on benefit is to significantly increase capacity on the Wimbledon and Richmond branches.

Thank you.

I know they divert some Piccadilly trains when the District is out of action and had heard rumours of the proposed diversion

 

[Aictos]

Hindsight is a wonderful thing but it's a pity that when the Heathrow branch was built, they didn't make it big enough to swap the District and Piccadilly's terminuses over so you had sub surface stock to Heathrow and deep tube stock to Ealing Broadway.

 

[Meglos]

Don’t TfL already have their own plans to send additional Piccadilly trains to Ealing Broadway, and additional Districts to Richmond and Wimbledon. We have a thread about it somewhere:

Piccadilly line to Ealing Broadway

I've been hearing on this forum that the Piccadilly line is to take over the Ealing Broadway Branch from the District line when will this be?

www.railforums.co.uk

It’s to do with finding somewhere with the capacity for the eventual higher frequency Piccadilly service to terminate, and the knock on benefit is to significantly increase capacity on the Wimbledon and Richmond branches.

The initial plan was to remove Ealing Broadway entirely from the District.

The problem they have with moving the entire Ealing Broadway services from the District to the Picadilly is Chiswick Park. At the same time the Richmond Branch is diverging from the Ealing Broadway services, you need to move the Piccadilly trains onto the existing District tracks to serve Chiswick Park. There currently just isn't the room to do the trackwork required. One suggestion was to change the lines to two tracks at Chiswick Park and move/widen the existing platforms.

Also the District stable a lot of units at Ealing Common depot, which would then not be directly connected to the active District line. A lot more ETCS movements would be required, with starters and terminators at Turnham Green!

 

[swt_passenger]

The initial plan was to remove Ealing Broadway entirely from the District.

The problem they have with moving the entire Ealing Broadway services from the District to the Picadilly is Chiswick Park. At the same time the Richmond Branch is diverging from the Ealing Broadway services, you need to move the Piccadilly trains onto the existing District tracks to serve Chiswick Park. There currently just isn't the room to do the trackwork required. One suggestion was to change the lines to two tracks at Chiswick Park and move/widen the existing platforms.

Also the District stable a lot of units at Ealing Common depot, which would then not be directly connected to the active District line. A lot more ETCS movements would be required, with starters and terminators at Turnham Green!

Yes, so I believe, but I think that’s all been discussed in the earlier threads on this subject. But presumably such plans would have to determine track changes to make it work.

 

[Meglos]

Hindsight is a wonderful thing but it's a pity that when the Heathrow branch was built, they didn't make it big enough to swap the District and Piccadilly's terminuses over so you had sub surface stock to Heathrow and deep tube stock to Ealing Broadway.

Until 1935 the Hounslow Branch was part of the District Line, and the District continued to run peak services to Hounslow until 1964.

 

[Mikey C]

What changes would you make if you were head of TfL and money were no object?

For me I would do this:

- The Uxbridge branch of the Piccadilly line would become the District line and the Ealing Broadway branch would become the Piccadilly line.

- Uxbridge branch of the Metropolitan line would be an extension of the Jubilee line

- Bakerloo line would be extended to Camberwell, Peckham then onto Lewisham

- Northern line split (I think this is going to happen anyway) into two lines: the Charing Cross Branch would be renamed to the Hampstead & West End Line (Battersea to Edgware) with an extension to Clapham Junction and the Bank branch into the City & South London line (Morden to Mill Hill and High Barnet)

- Hammersmith & City and Circle lines merged into one line: Hammersmith & Circle line

That's not very ambitious for a money no object thread!

I'd build Crossrail 2

I'd build a brand new orbital railway, outside the current Overground running around the edge of London, a railway M25

Then in real money no object territory, I'd build a new deep level Circle Line , without the flat junctions. As a state of the art line it would be massively faster and more frequent than the current one.

 

[HSTEd]

Convert most of the South London metro services into underground lines, complete with new, extremely expensive, London underground cores. (Or extending basically any short terminating tube lines to the edge of Greater London)

 

[Aictos]

Until 1935 the Hounslow Branch was part of the District Line, and the District continued to run peak services to Hounslow until 1964.

However I'm referring to the Heathrow extension which was built to take deep level tube not sub surface stock which was a mistake at the time.

 

[LLivery]

Money no object? Not all strictly TfL but:

1. Bakerloo Lewisham extension (with Bricklayers Arms) and total upgrade
2. Crossrail 2
3. Northern split and extension to Clapham Jun or South Kensington
4. Barking Riverside to Abbey Wood, DLR to Thamesmead
5. Crossrail to Staines from Heathrow 5
6. NLL & WLL platform extensions, 8 car trains
7. NW London Dudden Hill plan with electrification
8. Oxford Street Pedestrianisation + trams (Camberwell, Elephant, Waterloo, Strand, Holborn, Oxford Street, Marble Arch, Paddington, Marylebone)
9. New tube line - Cricklewood along Kilburn High Road, Edgware Rd, Park Lane, Victoria, Brixton, Streatham alignment.
10. Lower riverboat fares
11. Unified South London suburban brand/upgrade
12. Change zones - probably merge 2&3, 4&5. Keep 6 as is, merge 7,8,9 and add Spelthorne towns, Elmbridge towns and Stone Crossing - Gravesend to them.
13. Metropolitan Watford Jun extention
14. Footbridge between Greenwich Penninsula & Canary Wharf
15. Crowlands station (between Chadwell Heath and Romford)
16. Edgwarebury station (next to London Gateway M1)
17. Picketts Lock station (between Ponders End and Meridian Water)

 

[NorthKent1989]

That's not very ambitious for a money no object thread!

I'd build Crossrail 2

I'd build a brand new orbital railway, outside the current Overground running around the edge of London, a railway M25

Then in real money no object territory, I'd build a new deep level Circle Line , without the flat junctions. As a state of the art line it would be massively faster and more frequent than the current one.

True I was being overly cautious

- CrossRail 2 would go ahead

- Croydon Trams extended to Sutton, Brixton and Bromley

- DLR extension to Bromley North

- Tram or trolley bus along Uxbridge Road would be revived

- A tram or trolley bus from Elephant & Castle to Catford in lieu of the Bakerloo not serving Old Kent Road as that would be extended to Lewisham via Camberwell

- South East London rail metro scheme under TfL, which would cover the Dartford Metro routes and the Loops, Sevenoaks via Grove Park and Hayes, leaving the Gravesend and Gillingham services with National Rail

- Gravesend to be eventually taken over as a CrossRail extension

- Goblin Overground services and DLR extended to Thamesmead and Abbey Wood.

- A South CrossRail between Reading and Windsor to the South Eastern lines with the core tunnels a being between Clapham Junction to London Bridge if there is no SE London Metro or CrossRail extension from Abbey Wood

 

[JonathanH]

9. New tube line - Cricklewood along Kilburn High Road, Edgware Rd, Park Lane, Victoria, Brixton, Streatham alignment.

What? Where is that in anyone's serious plan? What major traffic objectives does it serve?

 

[beardedbrit]

A mostly in-tunnel line serving Friern Barnet, Muswell Hill, Highgate (interchange with Northern Line), Highgate Village, Parliament Hill Fields, and connecting to Kentish Town or Gospel Oak. Not sure how it would connect to the rest of the network, but it would bring rail service to a corridor which hasn't had any since the Northern Heights line to Ally Pally closed nearly 70 years ago, and has pretty horrendous traffic these days.

 

[JonathanH]

A mostly in-tunnel line serving Friern Barnet, Muswell Hill, Highgate (interchange with Northern Line), Highgate Village, Parliament Hill Fields, and connecting to Kentish Town or Gospel Oak. Not sure how it would connect to the rest of the network, but it would bring rail service to a corridor which hasn't had any since the Northern Heights line to Ally Pally closed nearly 70 years ago, and has pretty horrendous traffic these days.

it is certainly interesting whether that sort of investment in the suburbs could ever get near the top of the list. It certainly links places currently unserved but I don't know whether it would be acceptable to have it end on the Northern / Thameslink line at Kentish Town with no capacity for passengers to join the services going further into London. Presumably demand on this corridor is why there was a X43 bus for some time in the 1990s.

 

[MontyP]

What? Where is that in anyone's serious plan? What major traffic objectives does it serve?

Paddington to Victoria via Edgware Rd, Marble Arch and Park Lane is a significant surface-level route with a lot of bus routes and some terrible congestion. So an underground would make sense. It would also serve as a more direct route than using the Circle between those major terminals. I'd route it to Waterloo after Victoria though.

 

[JonathanH]

Paddington to Victoria via Edgware Rd, Marble Arch and Park Lane is a significant surface-level route with a lot of bus routes and some terrible congestion. So an underground would make sense. It would also serve as a more direct route than using the Circle between those major terminals. I'd route it to Waterloo after Victoria though.

Paddington to Victoria is a fifteen minute journey on the Bakerloo / Victoria line, and there is a slightly slower and less frequent link on the Circle line. The other poster's plan didn't include a stop at Paddington so a change would still be necessary. It is perhaps a bit of a shame that there isn't a direct connection from an underground line serving Victoria onto Crossrail.

I agree that Victoria via Park Lane is a significant surface-level route but a lot of that is down to the road network which funnels the traffic via that route.

There are already a number of stations on Edgware Road / Kilburn High Road or not far away with connections to Victoria.

 

[LLivery]

What? Where is that in anyone's serious plan? What major traffic objectives does it serve?

Not an official proposal. Traffic on these roads certainly isn't good, so I think it'd be well used - reducing pressure off the Jubilee & Victoria lines and Southern through Streatham.

 

[swt_passenger]

Paddington to Victoria is a fifteen minute journey on the Bakerloo / Victoria line...

...and there’s an easy cross platform change at Oxford Circus which aids this flow, people changing places with all those doing trips between Waterloo and Kings Cross on the other legs of the two routes...

 

[JonathanH]

Not an official proposal. Traffic on these roads certainly isn't good, so I think it'd be well used - reducing pressure off the Jubilee & Victoria lines and Southern through Streatham.

But traffic on what is essentially the 16 bus route from Cricklewood to Victoria is bad because the A5 is the main arterial road from that part of London to Staples Corner, together with the A41 which does the same thing, and Park Lane the main north south road through the centre. Victoria to Brixton is already on an underground line. I accept that Brixton to Streatham is a major bus route but that is highly connected with feeding the Victoria line.

It just doesn't link enough people to be the most advantageous relief route to the Victoria / Jubilee lines, particularly in Central London where your route runs down one side of a park. Remember that 'Crossrail 2' is intended to be relief to the Victoria line.

 

[HSTEd]

What about extending the Northern Line south from Morden to the vicinity of Sutton over the Sutton Loop, severing it at morden south.

The Morden South-Wimbledon section could be converted into a stub of the Tramlink system.

 

[JonathanH]

What about extending the Northern Line south from Morden to the vicinity of Sutton over the Sutton Loop, severing it at morden south.

The Morden South-Wimbledon section could be converted into a stub of the Tramlink system.

I think the reservation on that would be the lack of capacity at the existing stations - eg there is no point having more passengers boarding south of Morden if people at the Clapham stations can't board. Kind of no point anyway since people on the Sutton loop already have a train service.

 

[HSTEd]

I think the reservation on that would be the lack of capacity at the existing stations - eg there is no point having more passengers boarding south of Morden if people at the Clapham stations can't board. Kind of no point anyway since people on the Sutton loop already have a train service.

Well I suppose it would have to be after the Northern line split, when there should be substantial additional capacity.

 

[NorthKent1989]

I know Thameslink isn’t TfL but it’s on the map and seeing as the section between E&C/London Bridge to West Hampstead/Finsbury Park is the closest to being an express Northern line I’ll add it in.

The Sutton loop would become part of London Overground, running into Victoria, stopping at Clapham High Street and Wandsworth Road, The current Thameslink via Herne Hill would be diverted to Beckenham Junction.

- Thameslink would run via Lewisham and Blackheath on to Rainham via the Woolwich line which normally runs longer distanced, while keeping three distinct lines running to Dartford (The Greenwich, Bexleyheath and Sidcup lines) as a TfL route

- Thameslink would run to Maidstone and Ashford but via Bromley South

- The Epsom Southern service would be absorbed into Thameslink and extended to Guildford

 

[JonathanH]

The Sutton loop would become part of London Overground, running into Victoria, stopping at Clapham High Street and Wandsworth Road, The current Thameslink via Herne Hill would be diverted to Beckenham Junction.

The diversion of Sutton services to Victoria with calls at both those stations would be dire from the point of view of flat crossings, needing to cross the main line twice. There is also an issue with short platforms.

Thameslink to Beckenham Junction seems like a bit of a waste. Is there as much demand for that as there is from Sutton?

The Epsom Southern service would be absorbed into Thameslink and extended to Guildford

The demand simply isn't there for the route via Bookham to go to London Bridge outside peak hours - better served from Waterloo via Epsom as its nearest London Terminal. There is a good reason the services are set up as they are.

 

[Railwaysceptic]

A mostly in-tunnel line serving Friern Barnet, Muswell Hill, Highgate (interchange with Northern Line), Highgate Village, Parliament Hill Fields, and connecting to Kentish Town or Gospel Oak. Not sure how it would connect to the rest of the network, but it would bring rail service to a corridor which hasn't had any since the Northern Heights line to Ally Pally closed nearly 70 years ago, and has pretty horrendous traffic these days.

Not good enough and in need of refinement. The trains have to be stabled somewhere overnight so the service starts at Oakwood where a steel and concrete deck is built over the Piccadilly Line sidings and a ramp leads to new upper tier sidings. From Oakwood the line runs through New Southgate (for Friern Barnet) Muswell Hill (all new station), Highgate, Upper Holloway, Camden Road (with a travellator connection to Camden Town station) Euston (very deep indeed) Russell Square, Chancery Lane, Blackfriars, Elephant & Castle, Walworth (all new station), Camberwell Green (all new station), Denmark Hill and Herne Hill. A very useful line which would both serve areas neglected by public transport and provide a new cross central London route quite different from all the current ones.

 

[LLivery]

But traffic on what is essentially the 16 bus route from Cricklewood to Victoria is bad because the A5 is the main arterial road from that part of London to Staples Corner, together with the A41 which does the same thing, and Park Lane the main north south road through the centre. Victoria to Brixton is already on an underground line. I accept that Brixton to Streatham is a major bus route but that is highly connected with feeding the Victoria line.

It just doesn't link enough people to be the most advantageous relief route to the Victoria / Jubilee lines, particularly in Central London where your route runs down one side of a park. Remember that 'Crossrail 2' is intended to be relief to the Victoria line.

Mmmm fair point. Tbh, I haven't done lots of research into it, but with the crayons out I'd personally find it useful!

 

[beardedbrit]

Not good enough and in need of refinement. The trains have to be stabled somewhere overnight so the service starts at Oakwood where a steel and concrete deck is built over the Piccadilly Line sidings and a ramp leads to new upper tier sidings. From Oakwood the line runs through New Southgate (for Friern Barnet) Muswell Hill (all new station), Highgate, Upper Holloway, Camden Road (with a travellator connection to Camden Town station) Euston (very deep indeed) Russell Square, Chancery Lane, Blackfriars, Elephant & Castle, Walworth (all new station), Camberwell Green (all new station), Denmark Hill and Herne Hill. A very useful line which would both serve areas neglected by public transport and provide a new cross central London route quite different from all the current ones.

Like the way you fleshed it out, but Highgate to Upper Holloway basically duplicates the Northern Line, while my suggestion of stations in Highgate Village and Parliament Hill Fields is virgin territory, and could join your route at Camden Road. Of course the NIMBY outcry against defiling the Village with a station would be rather loud ....

 

[BritishGuy54]

This is the thread I've been looking for.

Here we go:

---

District and Piccadilly Lines switch termini. District now goes to Uxbridge, while Piccadilly goes to Ealing Broadway.

---

Extension of the Docklands Light Railway through far East London:

New branch at Gallions Reach, to Romford/Bexleyheath, calling at:

Gallions Reach to Romford:
Gallions Reach (3)
Beckton Riverside (3)
Creekmouth (4)
Barking Riverside (for Overground) (4)
Goresbrook (5)
Dagenham Dock (for NR) (5)
Dagenham Park (5)
Dagenham East (for District and NR) (5)
Eastbrook (5)
Becontree Heath (5)
Crowlands (6)
Romford (for Overground, Elizabeth and NR) (6)

Gallions Reach to Bexleyheath:
Gallions Reach (3)
Beckton Riverside (3)
Creekmouth (4)
Barking Riverside (Overground) (4)
Thamesmead (4)
Abbey Wood (for Elizabeth & NR) (4)
West Heath (5)
Bexleyheath (for NR) (5)

Most services this way would terminate at Canning Town west of Gallions Reach.

---

Extension of London Overground GOBLIN to Barking Riverside, with Castle Green as an interchange between Overground and NR services.

Extension of London Overground services to Hainault from Romford, with Marks Gate as an intermediate stop.

Full London Overground services between Highbury & Islington and Victoria, via Peckham Rye and Battersea Park.

---

Extension of Elizabeth Line services in all directions:

Eastern Extension:
Shenfield
Ingatestone
Chelmsford

AND

Shenfield
Billericay
Wickford
Rayleigh
Hockley
Southend Airport
Prittlewell
Southend Victoria

Southeastern Extension:
Abbey Wood
Belvedere
Erith
Slade Green
Dartford
Stone Crossing
Greenhithe
Swanscombe
Northfleet

Northwestern Extension:
Paddington
Old Oak Common
Wembley Central
Harrow & Wealdstone
Bushey
Watford Junction
Kings Langley
Apsley
Hemel Hempstead
Berkhamstead
Tring

---

Crossrail 2: William Line

Extension from Broxbourne to Stansted Airport/Hertford East.
Extension from New Southgate to Welwyn Garden City via Potters Bar.

Extension from Angel to Basildon and Grays:
Angel (Northern)
Hackney Central (Overground, NR)
Stratford International (DLR, NR into one building)
East Ham (District, H&C)
Barking (District, H&C, Overground, NR)

Grays Branch 1:
Barking (Zone 4)
Castle Green (4/5)
Dagenham Dock (5)
Beam Park (5/6)
Rainham (6)
Purfleet (8)
Grays (9)

Grays Branch 2:
Barking (4)
Dagenham East (5)
Upminster (6)
Ockendon (8)
Chafford Hundred (8)
Grays (9)

Basildon Branch:
Barking (4)
Dagenham East (5)
Upminster (6)
West Horndon (Contactless)
Laindon (Contactless)
Basildon (Contactless)