Ignorant Rail fare evasion- using rail card discount without knowledge of option being selected

[Y Ddraig Coch]

Hi,

I have received a reply letter from the train company today. They are proceeding with an out-of-court settlement with payments of £175 for their costs and £5.10 for fare avoided. I have also attached the letter for the reference.

Thank you everyone for your guidance and input in replying to the letter. I'm glad that they have offered the settlement after the reply.

Also, is there any chance that I get a discount on the payment if I pay early? I do not see such a thing and want to confirm. Please clarify

Once again thank you everyone on this thread!

You have done very well here considering the amount of times you travelled with a discounted ticket. I would pay it asap and put this behind you.

 

[WesternLancer]

Glad to

Thanks for the clarification. I'll pay for that today!

Glad to hear this is getting resolved. When you pay make sure you retain proof of payment and any receipts that you might get issued with - just to be on the safe side in case anything gets raised in future about the case - I'm sure that is unlikely, but always good to have the proof if it were ever needed.

 

[Hadders]

This is a decent result in the circumstances, thanks for letting us know.

As others have said there’s no discount for an early payment.

 

[Venky124]

Glad to

Glad to hear this is getting resolved. When you pay make sure you retain proof of payment and any receipts that you might get issued with - just to be on the safe side in case anything gets raised in future about the case - I'm sure that is unlikely, but always good to have the proof if it were ever needed.

Sure, I have made the payment and retained the transaction ID. Thank you!

This is a decent result in the circumstances, thanks for letting us know.

As others have said there’s no discount for an early payment.

Thanks for confirming. I have made the payment now.

 

[Venky124]

Hi Everyone,

I received an email today from Digital Fraud Team West Midlands Railway regarding the incident happended in December for which I have already received a letter from fare evasion team and paid the fine which you all already know from the previous discussions on this thread. Now, I have received this below email to my mail ID which is linked to the trainline app. I haven't given this email ID when I was stopped by the revenue officer on that day. So, I assume they took it from the trainline app and emailed me. I'm really worried whats gonna happen now. Please have a look at the email and help me to come out of this without being prosecuted.

Thank you

 

[skyhigh]

Essentially what they are saying is that the previous settlement was made based on the occasion on which you were stopped, and they have since investigated your purchase history and found that it wasn't a one off.

To settle this they will be looking to be repaid every fare you have avoided by using a Railcard discount that you weren't entitled to. If you don't, I suspect they have enough evidence (and time) to proceed with a prosecution under the RoRA legislation mentioned in the email.

You will need to send a very similar letter in reply, as you wrote in post 24.

 

[Fawkes Cat]

Hi Everyone,

I received an email today from Digital Fraud Team West Midlands Railway regarding the incident happended in December for which I have already received a letter from fare evasion team and paid the fine which you all already know from the previous discussions on this thread. Now, I have received this below email to my mail ID which is linked to the trainline app. I haven't given this email ID when I was stopped by the revenue officer on that day. So, I assume they took it from the trainline app and emailed me. I'm really worried whats gonna happen now. Please have a look at the email and help me to come out of this without being prosecuted.

Thank you

OK. To a large extent, you're back where you started - but this time you're being asked about your previous journeys instead of the one where you were caught.

I've just glanced through the thread, and as far as I can tell, you accept that you used the railcard discount when you weren't entitled to. So in my view the best thing to do is to respond to the railway telling them this. If you are lucky, they may allow you to settle for the cost of the fares for the journeys where you fare dodged, plus an admin fee.

Although some of the journeys may be too long ago for the railway to charge you with a byelaw offence or Regulation of the Railways Act offence, there is at least a possibility that a charge could be brought under fraud legislation, which doesn't have such a short window for prosecution. So it seems to me that the railway are still in a position where they could use the threat of prosecution to 'encourage' you to settle out of court.

 

[ikcdab]

But the new letter doesn't say exactly what evidence they have. They are asking you to incriminate yourself by owning up to the previous cases. If it were me, I'd want to know exactly what occurances they are looking at. They just can't send you a letter and say "show us how you didn't commit fraud" without more detail. I'd write back and ask for the details so that you can check them.

 

[John R]

But the new letter doesn't say exactly what evidence they have. They are asking you to incriminate yourself by owning up to the previous cases. If it were me, I'd want to know exactly what occurances they are looking at. They just can't send you a letter and say "show us how you didn't commit fraud" without more detail. I'd write back and ask for the details so that you can check them.

In this case it’s hardly fishing. They know the OP didn’t have the relevant railcard as they have already admitted it, and they can see that they bought those tickets using that railcard’s discount.

In this instance I would be inclined to be cooperative and reply along the lines of “it’s a fair cop, guv.”

 

[skyhigh]

But the new letter doesn't say exactly what evidence they have. They are asking you to incriminate yourself by owning up to the previous cases. If it were me, I'd want to know exactly what occurances they are looking at. They just can't send you a letter and say "show us how you didn't commit fraud" without more detail. I'd write back and ask for the details so that you can check them.

The OP knows exactly what they've done. The train company knows they didn't hold a Railcard. The company also knows they've settled and have the original response written by the OP admitting they have no Railcard.

Writing back asking for what evidence they have and generally being difficult when you clearly know what they're talking about is unlikely to help the situation.

 

[Venky124]

@skyhigh @Fawkes Cat

Thanks for you clarification. I'll request for a out of court settelment and agree to pay the outstanding amount and admin fee along with apology for the mistake and things learnt from this incident.
could you please tell how I should respond back to them. Like, while explaining should I just admit that I have used a railcard on other occasions or should I explain the details that I was not aware of the settings in the app and it was a ignorant mistake and now learnt from it.

 

[ikcdab]

But the letter just says " we think you have committed fraud, tell us that you haven't". My point is that without knowing the detail, how can you refute it except by saying "no I didn't".
You can't say "yes I did" because you don't know what exactly they are accusing you of, apart from in general terms. You just have no idea how many journeys they have on their list against you.

 

[Fawkes Cat]

@skyhigh @Fawkes Cat

Thanks for you clarification. I'll request for a out of court settelment and agree to pay the outstanding amount and admin fee along with apology for the mistake and things learnt from this incident.
could you please tell how I should respond back to them. Like, while explaining should I just admit that I have used a railcard on other occasions or should I explain the details that I was not aware of the settings in the app and it was a ignorant mistake and now learnt from it.

To a large extent, follow the sort of line that you did in the previous letter. On the basis of what people said here, I wouldn't follow the 'not aware of the settings' argument: I agree with most of the people who commented then that it really doesn't sound very likely. So if you say it, the railway will think that you are just putting forward a feeble excuse - and that won't suggest to them that you really have learnt your lesson.

 

[skyhigh]

But the letter just says " we think you have committed fraud, tell us that you haven't". My point is that without knowing the detail, how can you refute it except by saying "no I didn't".
You can't say "yes I did" because you don't know what exactly they are accusing you of, apart from in general terms. You just have no idea how many journeys they have on their list against you.

The email clearly state that this follows on from when the OP was stopped in December and was unable to show a Railcard.

It then states "further investigations into this matter have been carried out" and that "this may be a case of fraud".

To me it's clear what they are referring to and the OP knows they purchased incorrectly discounted tickets.

Replying essentially saying you don't know what they're talking about isn't going to be helpful.

 

[John R]

I agree with @skyhigh. When in a hole, stop digging comes to mind.

 

[Haywain]

You can't say "yes I did" because you don't know what exactly they are accusing you of, apart from in general terms.

You are clearly suggesting that the OP, who knows what they did, should now deny that on grounds that the exact details have not been provided. That's a very silly theory when the OP has already admitted to the TOC that they did exactly what is being asked about now.

 

[Venky124]

Hi Everyone,

I received an email today from Digital Fraud Team West Midlands Railway regarding the incident happended in December for which I have already received a letter from fare evasion team and paid the fine which you all already know from the previous discussions on this thread. Now, I have received this below email to my mail ID which is linked to the trainline app. I haven't given this email ID when I was stopped by the revenue officer on that day. So, I assume they took it from the trainline app and emailed me. I'm really worried whats gonna happen now. Please have a look at the email and help me to come out of this without being prosecuted.

Thank you

@WesternLancer @Hadders
I have got a good few suggestions regarding this matter.
Could please share your insights regarding this situation and what would be the best way to reply and settle this matter without a prosecution?

 

[WesternLancer]

@WesternLancer @Hadders
I have got a good few suggestions regarding this matter.
Could please share your insights regarding this situation and what would be the best way to reply and settle this matter without a prosecution?

Hi - I'm no expert but ultimately I suspect they maybe don't want to bring prosecutions for fraud, but they probably do want money for the occasions they think you travelled with the wrong ticket.

You said originally that you selected the Job Seekers Railcard discount in error.

I suppose you could reply in straightforward terms and say if they believe that you may have paid the incorrect fare on other occasions please could they set out the details concerned. You could even ask them to detail any sums they believe that you may owe.

You could also consider engaging a solicitor to help you, or you could at least ask one or two legal firms what fee they would charge to help you.

It would probably be best not to state it here - but presumably you can check your own records as to how many times you were travelling without the correct ticket by buying the wrongly discounted one, and thus how much money you owe them for correct tickets - and thus what is at stake in cost terms if they agree to allow you to pay for new tickets for those journeys.

This may not be easy to resolve.

 

[ikcdab]

Ok. I bow to everybody's better knowledge. But we saw on another thread that the poster there was accused of fraudulent journeys he hadn't undertaken. How do we know it isn't the same here.... That they haven't added on 10, 20 or 30 genuine trips?
Before you admit guilt, you really do need to know what you are admitting to. What you think you have done and what the rail company think you have done might be two completely different things.
I won't say anymore!

 

[Haywain]

Ok. I bow to everybody's better knowledge. But we saw on another thread that the poster there was accused of fraudulent journeys he hadn't undertaken. How do we know it isn't the same here.... That they haven't added on 10, 20 or 30 genuine trips?
Before you admit guilt, you really do need to know what you are admitting to. What you think you have done and what the rail company think you have done might be two completely different things.
I won't say anymore!

All the company have asked for at this stage is evidence "that none of the legislation has been contravened". If the OP knows of even one occasion when they applied the railcard to a purchase and used the ticket then they are unable to provide such evidence.

 

[skyhigh]

How do we know it isn't the same here.... That they haven't added on 10, 20 or 30 genuine trips?

Because this isn't like that other thread. There, they stated an amount they were looking for upfront. Here, this is the start of a dialogue.

Your idea to say you want more information before you reply with any information is unhelpful.

Not to mention the fact that the OP never held the Railcard so any tickets purchased with that Railcard will be blatantly obvious.

 

[Hadders]

We are seeing quite a few cases like this where, after the original case is settled, the train company then comes back for another bite of the cherry having discovered other suspicious transactions.

My own view is that the train companies should carry out these further investigations at the same time as dealing with the original case.

The OP has a choice here:

1. They co-operate with WMT, and pay a further settlement to be certain of keeping the matter out of court.
2. Say nothing. Purchashing rail tickets with a discount you're not entitled to is not illegal, using them is. It would be near on impossible for WMT to prove beyond all reasonable doubt that the tickets were used by the OP illegally for travel. A prosecution under the Regulation of the Railways Act or Railway Bylaws would almost certainly fail. There is a small possibility that WMT could try and prosecute under the Fraud Act.

There is the possibilily that WMT might have sufficient evidence to prosecute under the RoRA or Bylaws. They might present a case to the BTP who may, in turn, ask the OP to attend an interview and generally make life difficult. They might try and prosecute, try and get the OP to plead guilty, and withdraw if the OP turns up to defenf themselves.

 

[Skimpot flyer]

Would they still be able to verify the OP did use the tickets, from CCTV images?

 

[AlterEgo]

Would they still be able to verify the OP did use the tickets, from CCTV images?

Unlikely to a criminal standard, and they will almost certainly not bother anyway.

 

[Bertie the bus]

It would be near on impossible for WMT to prove beyond all reasonable doubt that the tickets were used by the OP illegally for travel.

Are you certain of that when the tickets were all purchased on the same account, they all have the same railcard discount, they are all for the same journey and the OP was caught on one of the journeys using a ticket with the invalid railcard discount applied?

 

[Hadders]

Are you certain of that when the tickets were all purchased on the same account, they all have the same railcard discount, they are all for the same journey and the OP was caught on one of the journeys using a ticket with the invalid railcard discount applied?

The train company must prove beyond all reasonable doubt that the OP used the tickets illegally.

Purchasing a ticket that you are not entitled to use yourself is not illegal, but using it is. This is important because otherwise anyone purchasing a ticket for someone else could be deemed to be guilty of a criminal offence. If someone researched my ticket purchasing accounts they would find numberous pruchases of tickets with a Disabled Railcard, Senior Railcard and Friends & Family Railcard, none of which I am entitled to. The tickets were all purchased for friends and family members.

On the balance of probability I'd say the OP is guilty, but to convict in a criminal court the case must be proved beyond all reasonable doubt.

 

[Haywain]

The train company must prove beyond all reasonable doubt that the OP used the tickets illegally.

But that is in court and it is highly unlikely that the OP will want to have to defend such a charge, especially as it would appear to be true.

 

[Venky124]

We are seeing quite a few cases like this where, after the original case is settled, the train company then comes back for another bite of the cherry having discovered other suspicious transactions.

My own view is that the train companies should carry out these further investigations at the same time as dealing with the original case.

The OP has a choice here:

1. They co-operate with WMT, and pay a further settlement to be certain of keeping the matter out of court.
2. Say nothing. Purchashing rail tickets with a discount you're not entitled to is not illegal, using them is. It would be near on impossible for WMT to prove beyond all reasonable doubt that the tickets were used by the OP illegally for travel. A prosecution under the Regulation of the Railways Act or Railway Bylaws would almost certainly fail. There is a small possibility that WMT could try and prosecute under the Fraud Act.

There is the possibilily that WMT might have sufficient evidence to prosecute under the RoRA or Bylaws. They might present a case to the BTP who may, in turn, ask the OP to attend an interview and generally make life difficult. They might try and prosecute, try and get the OP to plead guilty, and withdraw if the OP turns up to defenf themselves.

Thanks for your detailed analysis of the situation. I do not want to pursue this case and take up to the court. I want this matter to be settled out of court and having restricting the discussions through email only. I definitely cannot afford prosecution at this point of time.

Please help me how to proceed with cooperating the WMT in this matter and helpe me in replying them to settle the matter out of court.

 

[Deafdoggie]

I know others will strongly disagree, but I'm with Hadders option 2. Just ignore it. I don't see they'll be able to do anything. It's a phising trip, don't give them a bite Without incriminating evidence from you there's nothing more they can do, they hope that having had a rise out of you last time, they can do it again.

 

[Hadders]

Thanks for your detailed analysis of the situation. I do not want to pursue this case and take up to the court. I want this matter to be settled out of court and having restricting the discussions through email only. I definitely cannot afford prosecution at this point of time.

Please help me how to proceed with cooperating the WMT in this matter and helpe me in replying them to settle the matter out of court.

Thi sis the most pragmatic, less stressful approach and affords a degree of certainty.

I suggest writing a letter to them in a similar style to the one you wrote in your first case. If you post a draft reply in this thread we will be happy to proof read it for you.