Impact of lower linespeed and level crossings on slower off the mark stock such as Class 170's

[deltic08]

Mod - Split from this thread.

For the Harrogate line, I thought the 4tph plan was for 170s to perform the Leeds-York services (likely 6 diagrams) with 158s to run Leeds-Harrogate services (likely 4 diagrams).

But Northern don't appear to like the performance of the 170 on the line, so we might see that change.

With talk of taking the 170s away from the Harrogate line, I wonder if there will be any repercussions for dashing those raised expectations. It is one thing to wait for improvements, but another for them to arrive and then be taken away again.

170s struggle on the Harrogate Loop because of the 60mph line speed. All Northern have to do is ask Network Rail to raise the limit to 70mph to allow the units to get out of first gear.

In the good old days of heritage DMUs on stoppers and Deltics on the London trains, 70mph + was a regular speed downhill. I was in the cab of a late running ECS from Leeds to Harrogate one morning that shot out of the bottom of Bramhope Tunnel at 88 mph and kept this speed until braking through Pannal station for Crimple Curve.

 

[superkev]

170s struggle on the Harrogate Loop because of the 60mph line speed. All Northern have to do is ask Network Rail to raise the limit to 70mph to allow the units to get out of first gear.

In the good old days of heritage DMUs on stoppers and Deltics on the London trains, 70mph + was a regular speed downhill. I was in the cab of a late running ECS from Leeds to Harrogate one morning that shot out of the bottom of Bramhope Tunnel at 88 mph and kept this speed until braking through Pannal station for Crimple Curve.

Network rail have no incentive to raise line speeds as it increases there costs. Witness the 70mph limit on the recently electrified flat and mainly straight Preston Blackpool.
Better to regear them from 100 to 75 or 80 for faster acceleration as little of Northerns dmu network is much faster. Indeed I believe the only bits of 100 running eastside are between Church Fenton - York and Wakefield - Doncaster. May be more.
K

 

[deltic08]

Network rail have no incentive to raise line speeds as it increases there costs. Witness the 70mph limit on the recently electrified flat and mainly straight Preston Blackpool.
Better to regear them from 100 to 75 or 80 for faster acceleration as little of Northerns dmu network is much faster. Indeed I believe the only bits of 100 running eastside are between Church Fenton - York and Wakefield - Doncaster. May be more.
K

But the line was recently resignalled in 2013 for faster linespeeds and a 45mph junction on a curve upgraded to 60mph officially as most non stop trains ignored 45mph and went over at 60mph.

Why has Bolton-Euxton been raised 30mph to 100mph then, and Preston-Blackpool is still 70mph and not 60?

 

[Mogster]

What’s Bolton to Manchester now?

 

[deltic08]

What’s Bolton to Manchester now?

75mph max.

 

[modernrail]

I have always been interested in this point on line speeds. Are we saying that there are significant stretches of line in the north that are constrained not by corners, junctions etc but rather by NR maintenance budgets? Are there lots of opportunities to speed up trains such as the 170's if the funding was there to increase maintenance budgets, as opposed to line speed increases requiring significant capital works?

I have always thought it strange that speeds are so low on the Chat Moss line and ths Southport to Wigan line which seem pretty straight. Could Chat Moss be upgraded to 125 mph relatively easily?

 

[Llama]

75mph max.

Agecroft to Bolton line speed increases become effective next Sunday.

 

[Mogster]

I have always been interested in this point on line speeds. Are we saying that there are significant stretches of line in the north that are constrained not by corners, junctions etc but rather by NR maintenance budgets? Are there lots of opportunities to speed up trains such as the 170's if the funding was there to increase maintenance budgets, as opposed to line speed increases requiring significant capital works?

I have always thought it strange that speeds are so low on the Chat Moss line and ths Southport to Wigan line which seem pretty straight. Could Chat Moss be upgraded to 125 mph relatively easily?

Chat Moss seems ideal for a speed increase. Few stations and surely it would make journeys from Manchester to the WCML much quicker providing a high speed route that avoids Salford Crescent and Bolton.

Southport to Wigan has lots of level crossings.

 

[modernrail]

Chat Moss seems ideal for a speed increase. Few stations and surely it would make journeys from Manchester to the WCML much quicker providing a high speed route that avoids Salford Crescent and Bolton.

Southport to Wigan has lots of level crossings.

Is there maximum speed through level crossings?

 

[BantamMenace]

Agecroft to Bolton line speed increases become effective next Sunday.

What will the speed be afterwards?

 

[Chester1]

Chat Moss seems ideal for a speed increase. Few stations and surely it would make journeys from Manchester to the WCML much quicker providing a high speed route that avoids Salford Crescent and Bolton.

Southport to Wigan has lots of level crossings.

I think upgrading Chat Moss line to 110mph has been considered. The priority should a passing loop between Manchester and Golborne. Lime Street - Victoria can be done in 36 minutes by a 185 with one stop. The line needs more express services not faster ones.

Is there maximum speed through level crossings?

Level crossings have an absolute maximum top speed of 100mph. It is why NR are closing a very large number of level crossings in East Anglia to cut journey times to London. While that limit would not be an issue for Southport, the higher line speeds are raised, the more money needs the be spent on making level crossings safe.

 

[td97]

Chat Moss seems ideal for a speed increase.

It is off topic, but there is a level crossing vital for farm use that was viewed as too expensive to upgrade. As its built on peat any replacement would be more expensive than an average bridge.

 

[Mogster]

It is off topic, but there is a level crossing vital for farm use that was viewed as too expensive to upgrade. As its built on peat any replacement would be more expensive than an average bridge.

Interesting, thanks.

 

[ainsworth74]

Level crossings have an absolute maximum top speed of 100mph.

For new instalations maybe but of course they still exist on places like the ECML where there are several examples. Including open foot crossings (though I beleive there maybe safe to cross lights there)!

 

[superkev]

I have always been interested in this point on line speeds. Are we saying that there are significant stretches of line in the north that are constrained not by corners, junctions etc but rather by NR maintenance budgets? Are there lots of opportunities to speed up trains such as the 170's if the funding was there to increase maintenance budgets, as opposed to line speed increases requiring significant capital works?

I have always thought it strange that speeds are so low on the Chat Moss line and ths Southport to Wigan line which seem pretty straight. Could Chat Moss be upgraded to 125 mph relatively easily?

Yes Network rail will not be interested in line speed improvements or even electrification unless there's some financial incentive to do so and the prices they seem to come up with for even modest work seem huge. Think of the 60mph Harrogate and Settle Carlisle, and others as examples for much needed improvement.
So looks like Northerns stuck with the 100mph 170s with no 100mph lines to run them or even worse slow lines like Harrogate where there stuck in 1st gear using fast quantities of fuel and oil.
As I said regeared to 75 would be much more usefull and quicker off the mark too on start stop services.
K

 

[Llama]

What will the speed be afterwards?

(Re Bolton to Manchester, speeds for passenger trains only shown):
Down line (towards Bolton) - maxinum of 95 then 100; up line - maximum of 95.

 

[PomWombat]

170s struggle on the Harrogate Loop because of the 60mph line speed. All Northern have to do is ask Network Rail to raise the limit to 70mph to allow the units to get out of first gear.

In the good old days of heritage DMUs on stoppers and Deltics on the London trains, 70mph + was a regular speed downhill. I was in the cab of a late running ECS from Leeds to Harrogate one morning that shot out of the bottom of Bramhope Tunnel at 88 mph and kept this speed until braking through Pannal station for Crimple Curve.

That would have been fun! I'm jealous...

If there used to be less of a restriction, why do we now have a 60mph limit?

And that higher speed will have been with the original signalling, too. What prompted NR/BR to drop the limits?

 

[deltic08]

Yes Network rail will not be interested in line speed improvements or even electrification unless there's some financial incentive to do so and the prices they seem to come up with for even modest work seem huge. Think of the 60mph Harrogate and Settle Carlisle, and others as examples for much needed improvement.
K

Yet NR are upgrading other lines. The Harrogate Loop was upgraded in the 1970s with concrete sleepers, cwr and deep ballasting and could have been upgraded then with very little extra work. It could be upgraded to 70 or 75mph with no additional tamping.

60mph on the Settle-Carlisle is a joke for the length of journey. Even Borders Railway and GSWR are 90mph in places.

 

[deltic08]

That would have been fun! I'm jealous...

If there used to be less of a restriction, why do we now have a 60mph limit?

And that higher speed will have been with the original signalling, too. What prompted NR/BR to drop the limits?

It has always been 60mph but drivers drove differently then. They drove to what was safe to them and no spy in the cab in those days. Probably stems from few steam locos having speedometers.

 

[billio]

For new installations maybe but of course they still exist on places like the ECML where there are several examples. Including open foot crossings (though I believe there maybe safe to cross lights there)!

Two foot crossings at Copmanthorpe just south of York. They have lights but sometimes the green light is only on for a few seconds. One crossing is on a curve so you can't see too far down the track - crossing is a bit scary if you are not used to it.

 

[whhistle]

I thought 170s changed gear at 40mph?

 

[Railwaysceptic]

I have always been interested in this point on line speeds. Are we saying that there are significant stretches of line in the north that are constrained not by corners, junctions etc but rather by NR maintenance budgets? Are there lots of opportunities to speed up trains such as the 170's if the funding was there to increase maintenance budgets, as opposed to line speed increases requiring significant capital works?

This newly-uploaded YouTube video gives you an answer.

The captions are educational for non-professionals like me. Between Seamer and Malton the Scarborough Line is well laid out and could be suitable for 100 mph running. The speed limits are less than optimum and are lower still for heavier DMUs.

There are numerous routes across flat countryside where the situation is similar.

 

[deltic08]

This newly-uploaded YouTube video gives you an answer.

The captions are educational for non-professionals like me. Between Seamer and Malton the Scarborough Line is well laid out and could be suitable for 100 mph running. The speed limits are less than optimum and are lower still for heavier DMUs.

There are numerous routes across flat countryside where the situation is similar.

100mph not economical for only one train per hour.

 

[The Planner]

What benefits are released from the linespeed improvements? how much time is saved and more to the point, can it be utilised? It is never just a case of changing speed boards.

 

[cle]

What benefits are released from the linespeed improvements? how much time is saved and more to the point, can it be utilised? It is never just a case of changing speed boards.

Very few in this dishonest age of padding and delay repay - any savings are just gobbled up in the timetabling, especially between the last two station calls... so even if you miraculously arrive 10 mins early, there isn't a consistent perceived (timetabled) benefit to passengers.

It's like a bonus, with a disingenuous announcement, but people aren't planning around it. So not sure if it is a benefit as such.

 

[Tractor37]

I thought 170s changed gear at 40mph?

170's change over at 60 mph. I'm on a conversion course on them this week.

 

[deltic08]

What benefits are released from the linespeed improvements? how much time is saved and more to the point, can it be utilised? It is never just a case of changing speed boards.

You appear to be knowledgeable on the subject. If the curvature can take it, what is needed to change up from 60 to 70 or 75 mph to allow 170s to travel in second gear?

 

[Noddy]

What benefits are released from the linespeed improvements? how much time is saved and more to the point, can it be utilised? It is never just a case of changing speed boards.

Yeah most incremental line speed increases only every appear to save a few seconds or at best minutes, but if we’d never have incrementally the network *most* trains would still be on lines stuck at 30mph.

 

[The Planner]

Very few in this dishonest age of padding and delay repay - any savings are just gobbled up in the timetabling, especially between the last two station calls... so even if you miraculously arrive 10 mins early, there isn't a consistent perceived (timetabled) benefit to passengers.

It's like a bonus, with a disingenuous announcement, but people aren't planning around it. So not sure if it is a benefit as such.

If you are on about PTT vs WTT then blame the TOCs, if not then as I will repeat ad-infinitum, minutes are not added into the WTT unless there is a requirement.

You appear to be knowledgeable on the subject. If the curvature can take it, what is needed to change up from 60 to 70 or 75 mph to allow 170s to travel in second gear?

Not an expert in infrastructure, ask @Bald Rick , he is the master at answering this old question.

Yeah most incremental line speed increases only every appear to save a few seconds or at best minutes, but if we’d never have incrementally the network *most* trains would still be on lines stuck at 30mph.

Incremental is fine if it delivers something at the end, but no one is going to raise a line speed if there is no tangible benefit. Take the Chase line, electrified now and probably capable of more than 60mph but it wasn't raised higher as it didn't need to be to deliver the 2tph output.

 

[civ-eng-jim]

Yeah most incremental line speed increases only every appear to save a few seconds or at best minutes, but if we’d never have incrementally the network *most* trains would still be on lines stuck at 30mph.

That's parently complete nonsense. Do you honestly believe all lines started off as low speed and have matured into higher speed lines over time?