Improved solent network

[pompeyfan]

After watching this evening's BBC south today, they talked about a package of support for Portsmouth, and plans to regenerate the local economy etc, one suggestion was to improve rail links between Portsmouth and southampton, however I have a couple of questions.

A. Physically how would you increase capacity? The solent stopper is 1x4 cars per hour, the fast is 1x3 cars and then there is the 2 southern services from cosham. None of the services I have used have been uncomfortably busy. In a perfect world there would be another fast, but would the line be able to handle extra stock? The line as I understand it is 2 aspect, long section signals and the track can't physically produce the power (is this true or did I make that up?)

B. Why would you need to increase rail links? The M27 is fine (when it's behaving!) for those lucky enough to drive and the rail service seems suitable capacity wise, and for anyone else, Firsts X4 isn't an unpleasant journey (and actually could warrant double deckers IMO!)

 

[BestWestern]

I would agree that the current rail links Southampton-bound are perfectly adequate, and as you mention any additional capacity would require signalling enhancements I would think. If any improvments are required it is arguably to increase capacity and improve the overall journey experience on the Waterloo runs - this has of course been discussed many times previously and has its own set of rather complex considerations.

Bus services linking Portsmouth to So'ton have been historically prone to failure; variations on the theme have been tried many times over the years by numerous operators willing to give it a shot, rarely with success. I've no idea how successful or otherwise First's latest efforts are.

Portsmouth is a deprived city and to flourish it needs investment in its own 'back yard'; that is to say it needs to deal with what it has to offer rather than worry unduly about links to neighbouring towns. The ball has been rolling slowly since the opening of Gunwharf Quays and the resulting rejuvenation of the immediate area, but far too much of the city remains run down and undesireable. From a strictly railway point of view much could - and should - be improved at the city's generally pretty grim stations. Both the Harbour and P'mouth & Southsea are dire places, the former being worse, and are long overdue a decent refurbishment. Portsmouth Harbour should have been transformed into a transport interchange 'hub' long ago, offering direct links with numerous ferry services as well as the local bus network, but any such progress seems always to be depressingly stifled at every turn.

 

[Lockwood]

The ball has been rolling slowly since the opening of Gunwharf Quays and the resulting rejuvenation of the immediate area, but far too much of the city remains run down and undesireable.

Because the council only want to invest in their pet projects, leaving everything else a victim to mismanagement.
Let's invest a load of money into the privately owned Pyramids centre.
Let's leave the pier to ruin.
Let's close most of the public conveniences
Let's have Obama over for DDay!
Let's build a park and ride half way down a motorway, in (long)walking distance of the city centre!


It would be nice if in the early evening, there were more rail services from Cosham going to Brighton/Victoria/etc, rather than the deluge of Portsmouth services.

 

[pompeyfan]

The current bus set up works well because it picks up passengers, it runs fast from Portsmouth to fareham, then the a27 in to Southampton I believe. In terms of the railway I completely agree the 2 'Portsmouth' stations are hideous, although fratton is reasonably pleasant, if not a little underwhelming. Indeed I lurked in the penny thread, but couldn't think of anything worthwhile to add although the points made were mostly spot on.

In terms of Portsmouth in general as a city, I wouldn't rank it any less or worse off then it's south coast neighbours, if the shipyard can be converted in to a commercial ship yard then there is likely to be life in the old girl. As a side note, the hard interchange is in the planning stage of flattening the area and redoing the bus terminus and taxi rank, although the station itself will have to come from network rails pocket.

 

[Kite159]

Because the council only want to invest in their pet projects, leaving everything else a victim to mismanagement.
Let's invest a load of money into the privately owned Pyramids centre.
Let's leave the pier to ruin.
Let's close most of the public conveniences
Let's have Obama over for DDay!
Let's build a park and ride half way down a motorway, in (long)walking distance of the city centre!


It would be nice if in the early evening, there were more rail services from Cosham going to Brighton/Victoria/etc, rather than the deluge of Portsmouth services.

That new P&R makes better sense than the old P&R site, at least it's easier to reach by car.

Although I bet knowing Pompey council, the last bus leaves the city centre at something silly like 18:00 (with the car-park locked afterwards)

 

[Carlisle]

Many of the issues raised in this thread might have been solved had the proposed Solent LRT scheme ever come to fruition,it.was on the cards for many years but I suppose it finally bit the dust mainly due to the last government having such little time or interest in tram schemes preferring lower cost busways instead

 

[Matt Taylor]

The line from St Denys to Hilsea has some rather long signal sections which is largely what stifles any capacity increases, resignalling would offer more capaacity.

Initial plans for the gunwharf were for Portsmouth Harbour station to be moved into via a slight track deviation leading to a straight line from Southsea into what would have been a transport hub for rail, bus, coach, Gosport ferry and isle of Wight ferry.

A possibility however, may be to increase the service to Hedge End and Botley to 2tph, probably not to Waterloo but maybe to Basingstoke or possibly Salisbury with diesel stock.

 

[MotorcycleAlan]

Arriving at Portsmouth Harbour station the initial impression is of a rundown city, with the disused signal box and huge empty tower known as Brunel House with its broken windows facing you. The station entrance is in a terrible state, and does not do justice to what is an interesting and historical city. How come there is no pedestrian link direct from the station to Gunwharf is beyond me - is it to discourage rail travel and encourage car use because of the expensive car parking? As to rail travel through what was in NSE days known as the Solent Link, it is better now than it has ever been. The tram was I believe cancelled, as the two new aircraft carriers require the harbour to be dredged, and would have required a deeper tunnel. Others may know better.

 

[infobleep]

I guess the one good thing about Portsmouth Harbour, for some passengers at least, is the lack of any ticket barriers. They exist at Portsmouth and Southsea and Fratton. They did do up the toilets at PMS in the late 2000s.

Some years ago a list of the worst 10 stations was announced with funding to improve them. May be they should announce the next 10 worst and put Portsmouth Harbour in there and provide funding to improve it. Is it in the 10 worst though?

I do think the problem with Portsmouth is that the stations do not cover Southsea. I think a station in Southsea would be useful, as a visitor to the city. There was one until the 1930s, well before my time.

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[jopsuk]

My impression, as an outsider, is that Portsmouth, Fareham, Gosport and Southampton are badly car-centric, with large yet full to capacity roads choking them, especially Southampton. I'd almost suggest letting the Germans have another go at remodelling much of the area, but put the Dutch in charge of the rebuilding...

here's the 1910 track map of Portsmouth and Gosport- as far as I understand little was ever added after this, much was closed. As you can see the Southsea branch was only accessible to local services- Wikipedia says services last ran 1914 and the track was removed 1923.

 

[BestWestern]

I guess the one good thing about Portsmouth Harbour, for some passengers at least, is the lack of any ticket barriers. They exist at Portsmouth and Southsea and Fratton. They did do up the toilets at PMS in the late 2000s.

Some years ago a list of the worst 10 stations was announced with funding to improve them. May be they should announce the next 10 worst and put Portsmouth Harbour in there and provide funding to improve it. Is it in the 10 worst though?

I do think the problem with Portsmouth is that the stations do not cover Southsea. I think a station in Southsea would be useful, as a visitor to the city. There was one until the 1930s, well before my time.

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No barriers at Fratton - though there should be. The Wightlink ferry terminal at Portsmouth Hbr is accessible only via the station and so a gateline is more difficult than usual (though not impossible). I have to say I don't share the common view that all barriers are the devil's work. A properly run gateline keeps out the riff raff and provides a fixed point within the station where staff and assistance are clearly available, something so often lacking. Provided the barrier staff are good - admittedly that's a big 'if' - there is every opportunity for barriers to enhance a station rather than spoil it.

 

[Matt Taylor]

Brunel house is an eyesore without doubt but it is due to be demolished soon and replaced with a towering residential/commercial property that will also see the whole 'Hard' area redeveloped. A quick fix at PMH would be to open up the walkway that runs directly from Gunwharf Quays to the station. Any long term capacity improvements at PMH would require complete rebuilding of the pier structure that supports the station.

 

[swt_passenger]

There's a lot of info about the Portsmouth to Southampton route in the 2011 London and SE RUS, which has a specific chapter about South Hants locals as they were not really done properly in the earlier SWML RUS.

They basically wanted a second fast EMU service, with the reasoning being to send it via a new curve at Eastleigh and then call at Parkway. This was put firmly on the back burner for reasons of cost, mainly disruption to the works and depot and proximity to the runway.
(That's a summary of a lot of info but it gives the gist.)

It always seems to me that a quick win would be possible by extending the stopper to the Harbour throughout the day, like in the peaks. AFAICT it could be platformed with the FGW Cardiff behind it in platform 1, so shouldn't affect capacity.

 

[BestWestern]

Brunel house is an eyesore without doubt but it is due to be demolished soon and replaced with a towering residential/commercial property that will also see the whole 'Hard' area redeveloped. A quick fix at PMH would be to open up the walkway that runs directly from Gunwharf Quays to the station. Any long term capacity improvements at PMH would require complete rebuilding of the pier structure that supports the station.

I've often wondered if there is potential to avoid the eventual enormous cost of rebuilding the Harbour station - re-expand Ports & Ssea low level and simply convert the short stretch into the Harbour into a busway, with a continuous shuttle bus service departing every few mins. *SHOCK HORROR*, what??!

I'm serious though, bearing in mind that a few years back much of the service terminated at the low level anyhow, and traffic from the Harbour is generally fairly modest. Shuttles could extend directly through to the continental ferryport and any other destinations deemed worthwhile, offering through connections without leaving the station. Just a thought.

 

[Greenback]

Arriving at Portsmouth Harbour station the initial impression is of a rundown city, with the disused signal box and huge empty tower known as Brunel House with its broken windows facing you. The station entrance is in a terrible state, and does not do justice to what is an interesting and historical city.

I agree. Portsmouth Harbour is a miserable, bleak place that is long overdue a makeover.

It has occurred to me many times that perhaps the station is under the control of the Isle of Wight, which uses it as an incentive to make sure people don't linger in Portsmouth at all, and hurry straight over to the island instead!

How come there is no pedestrian link direct from the station to Gunwharf is beyond me - is it to discourage rail travel and encourage car use because of the expensive car parking?

I don't understand that either. Presumably ther eis body of opinion that echoes the 1980's view held by Margaret Thatcher that the only people who use public transport are failures, and the Quays don't want such riff raff getting in!

My impression, as an outsider, is that Portsmouth, Fareham, Gosport and Southampton are badly car-centric, with large yet full to capacity roads choking them, especially Southampton. I'd almost suggest letting the Germans have another go at remodelling much of the area, but put the Dutch in charge of the rebuilding...

I once had to take a Sunday Rail Replacement bus between Fareham and Portmsouth. I have to say that the description of the area as car centric appears to be spot on!

here's the 1910 track map of Portsmouth and Gosport- as far as I understand little was ever added after this, much was closed. As you can see the Southsea branch was only accessible to local services- Wikipedia says services last ran 1914 and the track was removed 1923.[/QUOTE]

I have to say I don't share the common view that all barriers are the devil's work. A properly run gateline keeps out the riff raff and provides a fixed point within the station where staff and assistance are clearly available, something so often lacking. Provided the barrier staff are good - admittedly that's a big 'if' - there is every opportunity for barriers to enhance a station rather than spoil it.

I agree. At worst, I find barriers a minor annoyance, at best they serve a very useful purpose and are a reassurance to irregular travellers rather than a nuisance.

 

[Y186520]

Arriving at Portsmouth Harbour station the initial impression is of a rundown city, with the disused signal box and huge empty tower known as Brunel House with its broken windows facing you. The station entrance is in a terrible state, and does not do justice to what is an interesting and historical city. How come there is no pedestrian link direct from the station to Gunwharf is beyond me - is it to discourage rail travel and encourage car use because of the expensive car parking? As to rail travel through what was in NSE days known as the Solent Link, it is better now than it has ever been. The tram was I believe cancelled, as the two new aircraft carriers require the harbour to be dredged, and would have required a deeper tunnel. Others may know better.

It always used to be arriving at Portsmouth was something special. The harbour with its navy ships and the ferry over to Ryde and nice days out.
Many people loved the old ferries and havn't taken to the plastic ducks which replaced them. I dont recall ever being impressed with any of the stations, it was always the distraction of a journey on which diverted my attention from how bleak and grotty Hilsea, Fratton, Southsea and Harbour
were and still are.

Like many places around the UK changes have affected the local economy.
The need to reinvent Portsmouth for the future is apparent. Its no good
having an eyesore in between redeveloped areas and perhaps a radical
modern station could be an answer.

Losing the tram scheme also condemned the area to transport stagnation.
Solent city is becoming a reality for this century but of course last centuries
infrastucture.


Mentioning Solent link I would bet not many of these are around.

 

[infobleep]

Gate lines are not evil, except those that break my season ticket, which lately has been frequent, even on the new ticket stock.

Of course the riff raff don't want gate lines.

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[MotorcycleAlan]

Certainly recognise that red ship there Y186520 don't think it ever made it to Portsmouth though.

 

[Y186520]

Certainly recognise that red ship there Y186520 don't think it ever made it to Portsmouth though.

Hi Alan, The Ross Revenge would be a good addition to Portsmouth historic
dockyard, and of course make it more accessable. Just next to Warrior.
Happy birthday Radio Caroline 50 this easter.

50 years ago pompey would have had 4 Cors 2 Bils etc. Old enough to have had a few rides on them. (I was very young then )

50 years ahead the Desiro cities will be just about done. Thats if the Dft let
SWT have them rather than dumping all the 455's on them.

 

[Chris125]

I've often wondered if there is potential to avoid the eventual enormous cost of rebuilding the Harbour station - re-expand Ports & Ssea low level and simply convert the short stretch into the Harbour into a busway, with a continuous shuttle bus service departing every few mins. *SHOCK HORROR*, what??!

I can't see any benefit that would justify the major inconvenience to those travelling on to the Isle of Wight, Gosport and Gunwharf Quays - a through rail service is the only sensible option. While Harbour station is not the prettiest, glazing the canopies and rebuilding the entrance would transform it.

As for the link with Gunwharf Quays, that is a long running saga which was meant to be completed as part of the Millennium Walkway - this article should give an idea of the difficulties involved, much of which are down to finding a solution acceptable to 5 different stakeholders; Portsmouth City Council, the company behind the Spinnaker Tower, Gunwharf Quays, Wightlink and Network Rail.

Chris

 

[Helvellyn]

Even if the signalling over the Fareham - St Denys section was upgraded with three aspect signals and shorter sections, there is still the issue of capacity into and out of Southampton Central.

If the capacity existed I'd reopen the Fareham - Gosport line and run each hour: -

1 x Portsmouth - Southampton (all stations)
1 x Portsmouth - Reading (via Eastleigh)
1 x Gosport - Waterloo (via Eastleigh)
1 x Gosport - Southampton (all stations)

 

[387star]

Brunel house is an eyesore without doubt but it is due to be demolished soon and replaced with a towering residential/commercial property that will also see the whole 'Hard' area redeveloped. A quick fix at PMH would be to open up the walkway that runs directly from Gunwharf Quays to the station. Any long term capacity improvements at PMH would require complete rebuilding of the pier structure that supports the station.

What about the black tinted window monstrosity by p and s station?
The original p and s low level is lovely but the upper level is hideously inadequate

 

[infobleep]

I can't see any benefit that would justify the major inconvenience to those travelling on to the Isle of Wight, Gosport and Gunwharf Quays - a through rail service is the only sensible option. While Harbour station is not the prettiest, glazing the canopies and rebuilding the entrance would transform it.

As for the link with Gunwharf Quays, that is a long running saga which was meant to be completed as part of the Millennium Walkway - this article should give an idea of the difficulties involved, much of which are down to finding a solution acceptable to 5 different stakeholders; Portsmouth City Council, the company behind the Spinnaker Tower, Gunwharf Quays, Wightlink and Network Rail.

Chris

So what is the stalling points now. Funding or Network Rail. They were hopefully of it being completed soon. Perhaps all the lawyers conveniently forgot legal steps that needed to be taken so they can extend the time it takes to complete. I shouldn't be so cynical.

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[Chris125]

So what is the stalling points now. Funding or Network Rail. They were hopefully of it being completed soon. Perhaps all the lawyers conveniently forgot legal steps that needed to be taken so they can extend the time it takes to complete. I shouldn't be so cynical.

Apparently it's been 'mothballed', presumably as no agreement could be reach.

Chris

 

[jopsuk]

For "hilariously expensive ideas"-put the "harbour" station, with at least four platforms, underground/water. Have a travelator (outside any barrier zone, so useable without tickets) to Gosport; also have a tunnel portal on the Gosport side and an intermediate station before Fareham

 

[Y186520]

For "hilariously expensive ideas"-put the "harbour" station, with at least four platforms, underground/water. Have a travelator (outside any barrier zone, so useable without tickets) to Gosport; also have a tunnel portal on the Gosport side and an intermediate station before Fareham

Perhaps a slightly less but still expensive version would be a two platform
underground station retaining part of current station for trains not running through.
The fastest journey from Fareham to Portsmouth harbour seems to be 24 minutes. A route via Gosport is about 6 miles and with 1 stop in Gosport
would probably take 15 minutes off that journey, maybe more.
Looking at taking current services which terminate at the Harbour on to
either Fareham, Southampton or alternatives, gives Gosport currently without a station access to a wide variety of destinations. Many other journeys would benefit from faster times and places which are not connected could be by extending Waterloo Portsmouth via Guildford trains.
Southampton Petersfield as an example.
Porchester and Cosham could still be served well by running out one way and back the other.
Services like Waterloo Portsmouth via Winchester and via Guildford could
become a Waterloo - Waterloo via either route.

There are many benefits from such a scheme which would impact the
imediate Gosport Portsmouth economic area, and perhaps the severly
congested roads in the area. Its probable that a significant increase in
rail passengers would result. The problem is as jopsuk descibes "hilariously expensive ideas" means there is almost no chance of it happening.

 

[infobleep]

Apparently it's been 'mothballed', presumably as no agreement could be reach.

Chris

Perhaps Network Rail were being over optimistic in 2011 then or something they can't considered came along and out pay to the process.

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[infobleep]

Perhaps a slightly less but still expensive version would be a two platform
underground station retaining part of current station for trains not running through.
The fastest journey from Fareham to Portsmouth harbour seems to be 24 minutes. A route via Gosport is about 6 miles and with 1 stop in Gosport
would probably take 15 minutes off that journey, maybe more.
Looking at taking current services which terminate at the Harbour on to
either Fareham, Southampton or alternatives, gives Gosport currently without a station access to a wide variety of destinations. Many other journeys would benefit from faster times and places which are not connected could be by extending Waterloo Portsmouth via Guildford trains.
Southampton Petersfield as an example.
Porchester and Cosham could still be served well by running out one way and back the other.
Services like Waterloo Portsmouth via Winchester and via Guildford could
become a Waterloo - Waterloo via either route.

There are many benefits from such a scheme which would impact the
imediate Gosport Portsmouth economic area, and perhaps the severly
congested roads in the area. Its probable that a significant increase in
rail passengers would result. The problem is as jopsuk descibes "hilariously expensive ideas" means there is almost no chance of it happening.

There is already one train Monday to Friday via Guildford which goes to Southampton. It's the 19.15 from Waterloo. Takes 1 hour 49 so compared to other journeys where you change at least once it's slower by up to half an hour. So clearly it's possible to divert.

However may be there is no demand beyond running just 1 train a day in one direction to Southampton.

There is an afternoon train which starts at Fareham at 16.44 which runs via Guildford but it's too close to the return journey from London to be any use as an outward and return package. It also doesn't start from Southampton.

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[Rick1984]

one improvement I'd like to see is a new apron at Portsmouth Harbour for the Hovercraft, indicated below. As a through traveller getting off at Southsea and using a courtesy bus just isn't as convenient as the connection to Wightlink Fastcat.

 

[TEW]

There is already one train Monday to Friday via Guildford which goes to Southampton. It's the 19.15 from Waterloo. Takes 1 hour 49 so compared to other journeys where you change at least once it's slower by up to half an hour. So clearly it's possible to divert.

However may be there is no demand beyond running just 1 train a day in one direction to Southampton.

There is an afternoon train which starts at Fareham at 16.44 which runs via Guildford but it's too close to the return journey from London to be any use as an outward and return package. It also doesn't start from Southampton.

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The 1915 isn't a diversion of a Portsmouth train as such as before it was extended to Southampton last year it used to terminate at Havant.