Improving rail services in Yorkshire

[Waverley125]

following on from the Bradford thread, I'm sure we can agree that services in the northeast, in both stock quality, journey times and frequency, are, for the most part abysmally poor. Journey flows which could be massive moneyspinners are neglected, and the motorways and trunk roads are clogged with traffic. But how can the situation be improved?

Personally, i think the answer has to be in improved frequency, better stock and electrification. The combination of these 3 things should give West Yorkshire and other large urban areas the proper 'metro' style rail network it needs to connect settlements and generate growth. So, what should be done. I'll run through, route by route, city by city.

LEEDS

Airedale & Wharefdale lines

1tp2h Leeds-Morecambe (all) 158
1tp2h Leeds-Carlisle (all) 158
1tph Leeds-Glasgow (Shipley, Bingley, Keighley, Skipton, Settle, Appleby, Carlisle, Lockerbie, Carstairs, Motherwell) 185.
2tph Leeds-Skipton (all) 2x323
4tph Leeds-Bradford F Sq (all) 333
4tph Leeds-Ilkley (all) 333
2tph Bradford F Sq-Skipton (all)
2tph Bradford F Sq-Ilkley
1tph Bradford F Sq-London (Shipley)

New stations: Armley Canal Rd, Kirkstall Abbey, Kirkstall Forge, Apperley Bridge, Manningham, Cross Hills

Harrogate line

4tph Leeds-York (all) New EMUs
1tp2h Harrogate-London (Horsforth)

New stations: Headingley Stadium, Horsforth Woodside, Bramhope & Pool

Caldervale Line

4tph Leeds-Halifax-Huddersfield (all) New EMU
1tph Leeds-Manchester Vic (all) new DMU
1tph York-Preston (all) New DMU
2tph Leeds-Manchester Vic (limited) New DMU
1tph Hull-Southport (Hessle, Brough, Selby, Garforth, Leeds, Bradford Int, Hfax, Todmorden, Rochdale, Victoria, Bolton, Wigan) New DMU
1tph Scarborough-Blackpool (Malton, York, Garforth, Leeds, Bradford Int, Hfax, Sowerby Bridge, Hebden Bridge, Burnley, Accrington, Blackburn, Preston, Poulton le Fylde)

New stations: Armley Moor, Laisterdyke, Low Moor, Hipperholme, Elland, Siddal, Todmorden Burnley Road, Cornholme

Huddersfield Line

4tph TPE Leeds-Manchester Picc (limited) new EMU
4tph Leeds-Huddersfield (all) new EMU
1tph Huddersfield-York via Castleford (all) 158s
1tph Huddersfield-Goole via Pontefract (all) 158s

New stations: White Rose Centre, Horbury Bridge

Hallam Line

2tph Leeds-Nottingham (limited) 158
2tph Leeds-Sheffield (all) New DMU

New stations: Horbury Junction, Crigglestone, Worsborough, Eclcesfield, Brightside

Pontefract Line

2tph Leeds-Goole (all) new EMU
2tph Leeds-Knottingley (all)

New stations: Hunslet, Stourton, Methley Junction

Wakefield Line:

2tph Leeds-London KX (Wakefield Westgate)
1tph Leeds-London St Pancras (Wakefield Westgate, Rotherham)
2tph XC
2tph Leeds-Sheffield (all) New EMU
2tph Leeds-Doncaster (all) New EMU

New stations: Elland Road, Middleton, East Ardesley, Wrenthorpe, Hemsworth, Kilnhurst, Rawmarsh

York & Selby lines

3tph Leeds-York TPE
3tp2h Leeds-York XC
4tph Leeds-York (all) New EMU
1tph Leeds-York Northern (limited)
1tph Leeds-Hull TPE
1tph Leeds-Hull (limited)
2tph Leeds-Hull (all)

New stations: Quarry Hill, Osmondthorpe, Brown Moor, Bolton Percy, Copmanthorpe, Dringhouses

will do Sheffield, Hull, Scarborough & Middlesbrough later

 

[142094]

A very big wish list there, and very unlikely to happen. Would be good if progress like that could be made, but the money isn't there, and probably won't be for a very long time.

 

[royaloak]

Every franchise can be improved with more services and more trains, the only problems are-

1/ there are not enough paths available,

and

2/ there are not enough trains available,

apart from those two small things its a good idea!

 

[Jeff Worsnop]

following on from the Bradford thread, I'm sure we can agree that services in the northeast, in both stock quality, journey times and frequency, are, for the most part abysmally poor. Journey flows which could be massive moneyspinners are neglected, and the motorways and trunk roads are clogged with traffic. But how can the situation be improved?

Personally, i think the answer has to be in improved frequency, better stock and electrification. The combination of these 3 things should give West Yorkshire and other large urban areas the proper 'metro' style rail network it needs to connect settlements and generate growth. So, what should be done. I'll run through, route by route, city by city.


A new austerity age is about to start.
Much better to think how to save money rather than spend it.

And as aside is there really a need for more capacity between Carlisle and Glasgow?

 

[Waverley125]

I'm not saying do this all at once, it would have to be introduced over a 10-15 year period.

As for 'a new age of austerity' only if the economically illiterate tories get in. They're so blinded by ideology they don't actually give a ****e about what's best for the majority of the country. Reopening lines, stations & improving public transport would have massive benefits. It's a zero-sum game, since it's paid for by future savings, it keeps people in work, creates new jobs, and opens up opportunities for movement & growth.

 

[trainfanatic]

I don't know if this has been raised before, but would it not be a good idea to ballot the train and non (but possible) train users in this very large urban area?

For a start, it would give the TOC's and other interested parties (including the Gov't) precise route and train capacity requirements to get this ball rolling.

I'm not suggesting it is easy to hold such a ballot or even who may be responsible and, more importantly, who will pay for it, but don't other forum posters/viewers think that before diving in and ordering new trains/track et al, its a good idea to sound out the travelling (and not yet travelling) public?

 

[4SRKT]

Oi! I don't want my current 12 minute journey from Shipley to Leeds messed up by a load of intermediate stops thank you very much! Let the buggers who live in Apperley Bridge and Kirkstall get the bus

 

[Vulcan]

I like the suggestion of stations at Apperley Bridge and Kirkstall Abbey, then I could get the train down to the ALR on a Sunday

I also like the suggestion of 158s on the Morecambe line, it'll be a welcome improvement on the pacer it inevitably will be tomorrow.

 

[stuartmoss]

A few years ago when I was bored I came up with this idea, which was designed to help alleviate the current clogged mess that Leeds and York roads get due to commuters. It was also designed to give Headingley Carnegie stadiums a station, and Leeds Bradford Airport a station at Cookridge. What do you all think?

 

[j0hn0]

for me, a station is required actually AT the airport with a spur. Considering the roads in the area i think an "airport" station at cookridge would be a complete waste of money. A spur to the airport would need to branch off just after horsforth anyway.

I used to live in rawdon and it is a pain to get to from the centre of leeds, I used to park at horsforth and get the train in.

For the rest of yorkshire, it just need electrifying and the stock drastically improved. Every pacer or 158 or 153 i've been on in the area has been absolutely foul.

Also the track.

Take a pacer from Wakefield Kirkgate to Sheffield, I challenge you all to find a more uncomfortable journey than that.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

A few years ago when I was bored I came up with this idea, which was designed to help alleviate the current clogged mess that Leeds and York roads get due to commuters. It was also designed to give Headingley Carnegie stadiums a station, and Leeds Bradford Airport a station at Cookridge. What do you all think?

I think the reason why so many people have so many good ideas for transport in the area is that....... there is nothing.

Everyone in the area can see that yorkshire is just one badly integrated mess.

I remember in Leeds that are now talking of trolley buses as the next thing, why? They still have to sit in the miles of traffic, but hey, they spent so much on the supertram scheme that they have to try and salvage something I guess.

 

[142094]

Regarding the Leeds trolleybuses, a great deal of the route would be seperated from normal traffic, and would have bus gates as well. Still, I too would like to see more stations and routes reopened.

 

[4SRKT]

Everyone in the area can see that yorkshire is just one badly integrated mess.

I can't see this, and I'm in the area. I think WYPTE does as good a job as could possibly be expected in the current political environment. Rail services in West Yorks are about as good as it gets anywhere in the country. Sure, the PTE gets some things wrong (reopening Wakefield > Pontefract for example, what an utter waste of money), but mostly it is a progressive force for good.

 

[stuartmoss]

I should have added that my idea for the station to be at Cookridge for the airport, was so that it could join up to the airport by other means such as mono rail, cable car, or suspended sky train such as below. i'm sure this would be cheaper than digging a cutting.

[youtube]973-ASD65UA[/youtube]

There is a thread on forums4airports that mentions providing a rail link from Horsforth to Guiseley via the airport....would be great if it happened.

This is taken from there:

Yes Galaxy/rmac, this is the railway spur from Horsforth to the airport, which should then be extended through to Guiseley, providing airport links not only from the Leeds/Harrogate/York line, but also the Leeds/Ilkley and Bradford/Ilkley lines. Due to the gradients involved, it would be far more difficult to dig a normal rail line up to the airport from either line, but a tram train is capable of climbing up steeper gradients. It also has the advantage that it can come off the heavy rail system when it gets into City Centres and can run through the streets as a tram, before going back on the train lines again. Really this would be the perfect scenario, allowing the tram train to operate through City streets, but then back on the railways, and up/down steep gradients in the way trams can.

The 10 year minimum to develop it is due to the red tape involved in getting the necessary funding for schemes such as this, and the compulsory purchase orders to obtain the land to build on. The airport has reserved its own land for the tram train and a station, so that is already there and will not be developed for other purposes. The tram train system also has to be trialled for some time as it is a light rail system using a heavy rail track. It is not technology in use in this country but has been used abroad for some time. Even so I believe it has to be tested over an extended period on a trial line. Originally this was going to happen on the Hudderfield - Penistone line, although I am not sure if that is still happening or not now. In the meantime, the emphasis is on improving bus links to the airport from Leeds, Bradford, York etc.

Whatever system of transport was used, the same funding and CPO issues would arise. At least now the Leeds City Region has accepted the need is there and committed to taking it forward.

The link to the thread is here: http://ukairportforums.prophpbb.com/topic74-70.html but I think you need to be registered to read it.

 

[Ivo]

A few years ago when I was bored I came up with this idea, which was designed to help alleviate the current clogged mess that Leeds and York roads get due to commuters. It was also designed to give Headingley Carnegie stadiums a station, and Leeds Bradford Airport a station at Cookridge. What do you all think?

It looks decent enough, but can you really justify the night service? It's not exactly Manchester Piccadilly to Manchester Airport, is it?

Also, I had better plug a compulsory stop at East Garforth, even though one can not be justified. I'm sure my friend in Leeds and her boyfriend wouldn't be best pleased if they had to hail the service every time!

 

[yorksrob]

I can't see this, and I'm in the area. I think WYPTE does as good a job as could possibly be expected in the current political environment. Rail services in West Yorks are about as good as it gets anywhere in the country. Sure, the PTE gets some things wrong (reopening Wakefield > Pontefract for example, what an utter waste of money), but mostly it is a progressive force for good.

Wakefield - Ponte was a very good idea. We pay out Council Tax in the five towns as well as the leafy North West

Re: the proposal - lots of good ideas if the money could ever be found A couple of things - I think for me earlier and in particular, later trains would be my main priority. For one thing, they don't need additional rolling stock or infrastructure and they would improve connectivity and the cultural life in West Yorks massively (last trains at 10 and 11 are pretty useless if you want to see a band or a play). Same goes for better Sunday services.

Also, I agree with extra stations between Leeds and Forster Square, although do they really need 4 trains an hour between these points? The trains I've been on here seem pretty lightly loaded in comparison to the Airedale and Wharfedale lines.

 

[4SRKT]

Wakefield - Ponte was a very good idea. We pay out Council Tax in the five towns as well as the leafy North West

No it wasn't a good idea. Nobody uses them and they are an expensive white elephant. Empty trains are a very bad advert for the environmental benefits of railways, so it's not just a waste of money, but very good propaganda for the anti-rail and anti-PTE lobbies. The fact that you pay Council Tax is immaterial, and sounds like the rather strange notion that Wakefield District 'deserves' a reopening - any reopening, no matter how ridiculous - simply as an acknowledgement of the fact that it also has ratepayers who contribute to PTE coffers. I am sure you are not 100% serious anyway because of your description of places like Bradford as the 'leafy North West'!

Not you particularly, but I've noticed before on this forum that many people seem to feel they have to commend any railway reopening, as though we ought to be grateful for any investment, even when it's unwise or badly thought through. To me this just seems servile and a bit pathetic: as though we should just be glad of any crumbs falling from the Treasury's table. We would be more confident and mature to stand up and say, "hang on, we don't need a line from x to y via nowhere in particular and the money would better be spent elsewhere, possibly even in a quality bus initiative if that's the best option for the locality involved". Or we might more brazenly shout out "Just how many effin' lines do we need between Edinburgh and Glasgow...........????"

You may be able to tell that I don't simply regard railway reopenings (or any investment) as a de facto good thing!

 

[yorksrob]

No it wasn't a good idea. Nobody uses them and they are an expensive white elephant. Empty trains are a very bad advert for the environmental benefits of railways, so it's not just a waste of money, but very good propaganda for the anti-rail and anti-PTE lobbies. The fact that you pay Council Tax is immaterial, and sounds like the rather strange notion that Wakefield District 'deserves' a reopening - any reopening, no matter how ridiculous - simply as an acknowledgement of the fact that it also has ratepayers who contribute to PTE coffers. I am sure you are not 100% serious anyway because of your description of places like Bradford as the 'leafy North West'!

Not you particularly, but I've noticed before on this forum that many people seem to feel they have to commend any railway reopening, as though we ought to be grateful for any investment, even when it's unwise or badly thought through. To me this just seems servile and a bit pathetic: as though we should just be glad of any crumbs falling from the Treasury's table. It would be more mature to stand up and say, "hang on, we don't need a line from x to y via nowhere in particular and the money would better be spent elsewhere, possibly even in a quality bus scheme if that's the best option for the locality involved". Or we might more brazenly shout out "Just how many effin' lines do we need between Edinburgh and Glasgow...........????"

You may be able to tell that I don't simply regard railway reopenings (or any investment) as a de facto good thing!

Nonsense. The five towns are in serious need of regeneration. Ultimately such trains help people to get to work which in turn reduces the amount of public money which needs to be spent correcting the various social problems which arise from unemployment.

Everytime i see one of these trains enter Wakefield Kirkgate during the day there are plenty of passengers alighting for Wakefield itself or onward travel. Certainly enough to justify a railcar on a pre-existing freight line.

I also distinctly remember you posting in the past about "empty" trains on the Leeds - Castleford - Pontefract route and I can assure you that the vast majority of trains on this route are busy throughout weekdays, long until after the rushour and packed in the rush hour and on Saturdays.

 

[Donny Dave]

As for 'a new age of austerity' only if the economically illiterate tories get in. They're so blinded by ideology they don't actually give a ****e about what's best for the majority of the country. Reopening lines, stations & improving public transport would have massive benefits. It's a zero-sum game, since it's paid for by future savings, it keeps people in work, creates new jobs, and opens up opportunities for movement & growth.

to be quite frank, bull**** ....

It doesn't matter which party wins the general election in the next few months, there has got to be some pretty big spending cuts made. Labour defered the spending review, as they knew if they recommend cuts, they would have no chance of getting re-elected, so whoever wins, has got some pretty big decisions to make, and the resulting backlash that will follow.

 

[Waverley125]

whatever. This thread is about what ought to be done, not what will.

I'd agree with the extra late-trains. Reduced service on all lines after 9pm, but last trains back to the 'core' i.e. Huddersfield, Brighouse, Bradford, Skipton, Ilkley, Knaresborough, York, Pontefract, Wakefield etc. should be, IMO, around 0200 with first morning trains at 0430.

With Leeds-Bradford, i think the opening of new stations would massively boost passenger numbers. At the moment if you live in north/west leeds you have to drive away from Bradford to get a train, so it's pointless. Making it a short walk to a station and then 15 minutes on the train will encourage a lot more people, as well as draw business towards easily-accesible, low-price land in those areas.

 

[philjo]

Some of the services mentioned may not need 4tph, but 3tph would be an improvement from the current half-hourly services - e.g. on the Wharfedale line.

Many services seem to reduced frequency very early in the evening. e.g. to Ilkley, it is only hourly after 20:02, even though several arrivals in Leeds from Kings Cross get to Leeds about this time.
As a result the from Leeds 21:06 has been full & standing on the occasions that I have used it.
At the very least, a 20:32 should run to Ilkley from Leeds
Also, the Leeds- Bradford FS services seem to stop running fairly early (I think the last one runs at 19:10 after which you either need to change at shipley or go via New Pudsey to Interchange)

Sunday mornings needs an earlier Ilkley to Leeds or Bradford train, going via Shipley to allow connection into the morning northbound Carlisle/Morecambe services.

It is difficult to get from Ilkley/Guiseley etc to the Headingley area at the moment - either have to change in Leeds for a Harrogate train or get the bus.
The proposed Kirkstall Forge station should improve this, though (albeit with a steep uphill walk!).

I often thought that a new station at Leeds/bradford airport should be built as a through (electrified) station with links from both the Harrogate & Wharefedale lines.
this would allow:

some Ilkley trains would run via the airport & Horsforth allowing new Headingley/Horsforth-Ilkley journeys - this would improve access to Headingley Carnegie stadium.

Headingley & Horsforth would get a much more regular service to Leeds.

An hourly Skipton-Airport-Harrogate-York service.
This would provide a direct Skipton-Harrogate link, plus giving York & Harrogate a direct service to the airport.
Some additional Leeds-Bradford trains would run via the airport.
The main constriction in additional services would be the single line section between Guiseley & Shipley

This line would also provide a diversionary route between Leeds & Shipley, & it wold be mainly on higher ground so would be less susceptible to flooding than the current route past Kirkstall abbey which follows the Aire.

 

[Waverley125]

all of these are good ideas. My preference for an airport link is one from Guiseley to Airport & on to Horsforth, with services running as Leeds-Horsforth-Airport-Guiseley-Baildon-Bradford Forster Square, with some services running from Skipton & Ilkley.

I'd also run a much better weekend Service. Timetable would run on a monday-saturday rotation, with a half service on Sundays (though compared to present this would still be substantial e.g. Half hourly running on all 'metro' routes.

As for stock, there does need to be a drastic change. I'd move the 333s to the Caldervale & York lines. The 321s would stay a little longer but would eventually go for 350s, which would also be introduced on the Harrogate, Wakefield & Selby lines. This said, the 321s could stay on the Pontefract line services. A&Wdale services would be taken over by pairs of 323s to increase capacity.

As for TPE services, I'd hope to see a new 'class 344'-basically a 444 with a whole coach first class, pantograph and buffet. This would make TP massivley more attractive, with a 40% capacity increase per train and a more appropriate end-doors layout.

Anyway, I did promise it, so here's the other centres (services described serving here from other centres will be ommitted)

SHEFFIELD

Hope Valley Line

1tph TPE
1tph EMT
2tph Manchester Picc (all)

New stations at: Highfield, Millhouses

Midland Main Line

2tph EMT
2tph XC
2tph Chesterfield (all)

New stations at: Old Whittington

Eastern Lines

1tph Lincoln (all)
1tph Lincoln (Worksop, Retford, Gainsborough Lea Road)
1tph Chesterfield via Killamarsh (all)
2tph Bolsover(all)
1tph Mansfield via Staveley & Clowne (all)

New stations at: Don Valley Stadium, Beighton, Killamarsh, Eckington & Renishaw, Staveley, Bolsover and Clowne

Sheffield-Hull/Cleethorpes Line

1tph TPE
1tph Hull (all)
1tph Hull (Meadowhall, Rotherham, Mexborough, Conisborough, Doncaster, Thorne North, Goole, Brough, Hessle)
2tph Doncaster (all)
1tph Cleethorpes (all)
1tph Cleethorpes (Meadowhall, Rotherham, Mexborough, Consiborough, Doncaster, Thorne South, Scunthorpe, Grimsby)

New stations at: Warmsworth and Gipsyville

Sheffield-York line

1tph Sheffield-York via Pontefract (all)

New stations at: Ferrybridge, Monk Fryston and Ackworth

HULL

Hull-Scarborough

2tph Bridlington (all)
2tph Scarborough (Beverley, Driffield, Bridlington then all)

New stations at: KC Stadium, Burton Agnes, Marton and Falsgrave

SCARBOROUGH

1tph TPE
1tph Northern
1tph Leeds (all)
1tph York (all)

New stations at: Sherburn, Rillington, Huttons Ambo, Kirkham, Barton Hill, Strensall, Haxby, New Earswick and Clifton

MIDDLESBROUGH

1tph TPE
1tp2h GC
1tph Northallerton (all)
1tph Leeds (all to York, Garforth)
2tph Bishop Auckland (all)
1tph Darlington (all)
2tph Saltburn (all)
1tph Staithes Parkway (all)
1tph Whitby (all)
1tph Newcastle (all)
1tph Newcastle (Thornaby, Stockton, Hartlepool, Sunderland)

New stations at: Riverside Stadium, South Bank, Saltburn Marske Road, Skelton, Brotton, Loftus, Easington, Berwick Hills and Staithes Parkway (adjacent to Boulby works & A174)

 

[Max]

Gipsyville

HULL

Hull-Scarborough

2tph Bridlington (all)
2tph Scarborough (Beverley, Driffield, Bridlington then all)

New stations at: KC Stadium, Burton Agnes, Marton and Falsgrave

Firstly, Gipsyville will never warrant a station. It's so close to the city centre and already has excellent bus links. Some kind of parkway station at Priory Park would be much more beneficial to Hull, as it would provide a good alternative to driving into the city centre and would therefore help to reduce congestion in the city centre and along the A63.

Secondly, agreed, a station for the KC stadium and the infirmary would definitely be beneficial, but cost-benefit analyses have suggested that it would be far from viable. Also, I couldn't see it being well enough used on non-matchdays.

Thirdly, 2 trains per hour to Scarborough? No way would that be viable, and it would require significant infrastructure improvements north of Bridlington to make it work. Perhaps in the high summer it could be justified, although Northern would probably be better off looking into alternatives such as longer trains (LHCS?).

 

[142094]

MIDDLESBROUGH

1tph TPE
1tp2h GC
1tph Northallerton (all)
1tph Leeds (all to York, Garforth)
2tph Bishop Auckland (all)
1tph Darlington (all)
2tph Saltburn (all)
1tph Staithes Parkway (all)
1tph Whitby (all)
1tph Newcastle (all)
1tph Newcastle (Thornaby, Stockton, Hartlepool, Sunderland)

New stations at: Riverside Stadium, South Bank, Saltburn Marske Road, Skelton, Brotton, Loftus, Easington, Berwick Hills and Staithes Parkway (adjacent to Boulby works & A174)

I can't see GC wanting to go to Middlesbrough, as the current system of changing at Eaglescliffe seems much better. Also I can' really see much of a point in doing 1tph to Northallerton, not many stops and I wouldn't think the increased services would increase passenger numbers here.

I agree that more trains should go through to Bishop Auckland, but this would need track imporvements from Darlington and more stock. I also like the idea of a more frequent Whitby service, but again would require track improvements. A fast shuttle to Whitby calling at only a few stations would be great.

An increased Newcastle - Sunderland - Hartlepool - Middlesbrough service would also be good, but again no units to be used on this. Would also probably cause problems with the Metro past Sunderland.

You've also suggested a new station at Easington, but there are plans for a station near to Peterlee which seems more feasible.

 

[4SRKT]

Nonsense. The five towns are in serious need of regeneration. Ultimately such trains help people to get to work which in turn reduces the amount of public money which needs to be spent correcting the various social problems which arise from unemployment.

Everytime i see one of these trains enter Wakefield Kirkgate during the day there are plenty of passengers alighting for Wakefield itself or onward travel. Certainly enough to justify a railcar on a pre-existing freight line.

I also distinctly remember you posting in the past about "empty" trains on the Leeds - Castleford - Pontefract route and I can assure you that the vast majority of trains on this route are busy throughout weekdays, long until after the rushour and packed in the rush hour and on Saturdays.

I don't deny that the Five Towns are in need of regeneration, I just don't see that providing a lightly used and very expensive service is the way to do it. The money could be better spent within the regeneration budget on something (anything) else. The last time I went on this line I was the only passenger after Streethouse. On previous occasions, even in rush hour, I've never seen them anything even approaching half full. Even if this is good for the people using the train, it's not an efficient use of resources. This seems a classic example of the 'any investment is good investment' syndrome that so infects people who are passionate about the railway.

I've never posted about empty trains on Leeds > Ponte. What I said was I thought these were more suitable for pacer operation than the 158 which they sometimes get, purely based on journey distance when the pacers in question are working on the Leeds > Brighouse > Manchester service (and are 3 car sets to boot).
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
WTH is 'Staithes Parkway'??

If anyone is going to take railway development suggestions seriously, it's important that they are not coming from the heady heights of total fantasy!

 

[StewieG]

I'm surprised no one has mentioned... (as far as I can see) about Network Rails proposed plans to increase capacity on Ftpe's service across the Pennines.

They're apparently, going to allow 6 trains from Leeds - Manchester per hour, as part of a scheme in Manchester, which will apparently alleviate the main congested throat of the area. Ideas put forward are to increase capacity at Victoria, which will allow Lime Street services to branch off and go that way as on a Sunday, and others which I can't remember at the moment... When I find the article i'll post it on here.

 

[Ploughman]

With regard to the link to Leeds - Bradford Airport.
There was a scheme proposed in the early 90s by Leeds METRO about providing a link. Either using the redundant trackbed of the former Yeadon branch from Guiseley (Roughly at the leeds end of Greenbottom tunnel) or via a new link from the Harrogate line at the former Arthington junction.
The Yeadon branch does not go far enough up to the airport but at least it is in the right area. It could be extended but the connection faces the wrong way away from Leeds.
Artington could provide a facing connection but would require a considerable height gain.
It could make use of part of the former Otley branch up to the Otley Bypass.

 

[royaloak]

I think for me earlier and in particular, later trains would be my main priority. For one thing, they don't need additional rolling stock .

Yes it will, you will need stock to cover maintenance which now gets carried out on a night, by using the stock later you will not have enough time to carry out the maintenance to a satisfactory standard in the few hours in the plan above so trains would not be ready for the morning run out.

I'd agree with the extra late-trains. Reduced service on all lines after 9pm, but last trains back to the 'core' i.e. Huddersfield, Brighouse, Bradford, Skipton, Ilkley, Knaresborough, York, Pontefract, Wakefield etc. should be, IMO, around 0200 with first morning trains at 0430.

So when do you carry out maintenance on the stock and tracks, you will be surprised how much gets carried out on a night now in the 4-5 hours between end of service and the following days run out.

 

[IanXC]

For the Yorkshire Coast Line, as has been said 2tph north of Bridlington isn't feasible, its single track with AFAIK no opportunities for passing.

For the other station ideas, there was a station at Scarborough, Londesborough Road, the site of which is about as close to Falsgrave as is possible but it really could have been an extension of Scarborough Central its so close!

And Burton Agnes? Its comical how few people get on and off the buses there let alone build a new station! However Carnaby could be a good move - large industrial estate and possibility of a park and ride facility for Bridlington...

Given the improvements that Northern have put in place from December, I really can't think of any sensible improvements to make, other than a late night run back from Hull, as the last train is 21.48 to Bridlington. The timetable improvements have gained me as a regular commuter anyway, I've got 3 sensible trains to work and more to get home

In the summer months Northern do supplement the usual 2 car 158, often with a 153 making 3 cars, although I did once see a 158-158-153-158-158 arrangement going on! And it was pretty full!

So thanks, but for this side of the patch the Minster Line would have to be top of my list, not so sure there will be any progress on that given the current budgetary pressures though....

 

[tbtc]

4tph Leeds-York (all) New EMUs

2tph Leeds-Goole (all) new EMU

I'm a bit confused about some of your routes as its not clear whether some are duplicated or not (by my maths it looked like ten trains an hour from Leeds to Halifax?

But the two above stick out like a sore thumb. Leeds to Horsforth/ Harrogate could do with an increased frequency (I think that line could attract a number of commuters out of their car). Leeds to Castleford/ Pontefract could potentially be improved too. But four trains an hour from Knaresborough to York? Two trains an hour from Pontefract to Goole?

As ever, there's some interesting ideas, but hard to know which ones to take seriously when some of the suggestions are quite so far fetched - I've said before that a "fantasy" section would be a good idea for threads like this where we can seperate them from the "reality" of other improvements

 

[Waverley125]

Some of the services are duplicates. For instance, one of the hourly york stoppers would be the Caldervale line Preston-York all stopper running through, while there would be a semi an hour to york & hull, both running through on that line-to Blackpool & Southport respectively.

The summation of Leeds-Halifax services is:
4tph EMU (all stops, terminating)
2tph DMU (all stops, to Preston & Manchester Vic respectively)

so a train every 10 mins on the urban stations i.e. the core commuter route-Armley Moor, Bramley, New Pudsey, Laisterdyke, Bradford, Low Moor & Hipperholme

2tph DMU (semi fast i.e. Pudsey & Bradford, to Manchester Vic)
2tph DMU (Fast, Bradford only, to Blackpool & Southport)

this is very high, but serves all needs. The urban stations are served regularly on a near 'metro' frequency. Large stations have lots of journey opportunities, and faster journeys. Stations beyond Halifax retain 4tph Leeds, 3tph Manchester Vic and connections to the WCML.

One alternative way of doing this would be to retain the present 'stopper' to Manchester Vic avoiding Halifax & Huddersfield, but serving the stops west of Halifax. Frees up space Halifax-Leeds while maintaining serice. Probably a better way of doing it, actually.