Improving the Connectivity of the South West

[Woody]

DavidBrown your obviously driven by something other than logic. According to the latest 2011 census, the population of Exeter is 117,800 and Torbay is 131,000 so added together that makes 248,800, still less than Plymouth’s 256k. I travel almost daily for leisure between Plymouth Exeter and Torbay and believe you me a lot of people commute into Plymouth from Cornwall by rail. Plymouth is no longer so dominated by the military but is an increasingly successful marine science and university city with two universities now with some 30/40,000 students. The rail facts speak for themselves. More tickets are sold for rail journeys originating from Plymouth than any other station west of Bristol TM, not bad for a city that historically has had to endure such a poor rail service. Exeter St David’s seems busier simply because it is a key interchange station more than an originating station. First group and their cronies have a lot to answer for west of Exeter and I smell the whiff of coalition politics blowing in the North Devon and indeed the Torbay wind here somewhere.

 

[Zoe]

More tickets are sold for rail journeys originating from Plymouth than any other station west of Bristol TM, not bad for a city that historically has had to endure such a poor rail service. Exeter St David’s seems busier simply because it is a key interchange station more than an originating station. First group and their cronies have a lot to answer for west of Exeter and I smell the whiff of coalition politics blowing in the North Devon and indeed the Torbay wind here somewhere.

The number of journeys to and from Exeter is going to be higher than the number of journeys to and from St Davids though as quite a few people will be using Central or the various other stations in Exeter. If Exeter is where most people on trains from London are travelling to then it's not surprising that investment west of there is not a priority.

 

[Woody]

The number of journeys to and from Exeter is going to be higher than the number of journeys to and from St Davids though as quite a few people will be using Central or the various other stations in Exeter. If Exeter is where most people on trains from London are travelling to then it's not surprising that investment west of there is not a priority.

I would remind people that this thread is about improving connectivity with the whole of the south west and not just Bristol or Exeter including Plymouth, Torbay, North Devon and of course Cornwall, so lets not get too parochial about this. Judging from the poll most people would simply like to see the railway infrastructure west of Exeter improved to enable faster and more frequent services, end off.
On that theme I remember a few years ago now Barry Doe writing an article in Rail magazine that showed that Plymouth was the worst rail connected comparable city to London in Britain and sadly despite 20 years of privatisation nothing has really changed and that is simply my undeniable point.

 

[HSTEd]

It is not really relevent if Exeter or Plymouth is more important.
The important question is the level of traffic to Plymouth, and whether it is high enough to support improvements, I believe it is or could be once the demand increase brought on by those improvements is accounted for.

 

[Zoe]

It is not really relevent if Exeter or Plymouth is more important.
The important question is the level of traffic to Plymouth, and whether it is high enough to support improvements, I believe it is or could be once the demand increase brought on by those improvements is accounted for.

Where's the demand going to come from though? It's all very well spending a lot of money to improve journey times but there still has to be a reason for people to travel. Plymouth doesn't really have more to offer than Exeter so I can't see much reason for people to travel the extra 50 miles.

 

[HowardGWR]

I think it would be handy if some of us went back to the OP's first post. It was solely about Devon and Cornwall west of Exeter (so not 'the SW', which stretches from Tewkesbury to Christchurch through Salisbury) and the approach assumed that an improvement was needed via several options which he listed.

He didn't actually stress Torbay, but the 'back route' from NA to EXE was under consideration.

So we are not supposed to discuss whether improvements are needed but simply to consider which ones.

 

[Cliveblackpool]

The most popular destination for passengers in Cornwall is Plymouth.
Excellent shopping centre.
Plymouth has huge potential, with so much prime waterfront property which will see new life as the military dockyards etc shrink.
It has double the population of Exeter.
It is the busiest station in Cornwall and Devon, followed by EXD.
It would be a lot busier if it still retained branches such as Tavistock, Launceston, Plymstock etc.

The Falmouth branch has had a steep rise in usage, which just shows what investment can do - 1tph to 2 tph. Cost - passing loop/ signals and extra train.

 

[HowardGWR]

The most popular destination for passengers in Cornwall is Plymouth.

Don't let the Cornish hear you say that!!!!

 

[yorksrob]

There seemed to be a lot of people commuting to Truro as well when I was down that way.

 

[Rational Plan]

In the short to medium term all you are going to see is increased maintenance. If HS2 proves politically popular, then sometime in the 2030's other areas of the country could get their own high speed routes.

The routes to the West and SW out of London may only need selective high speed bypasses, but one obvious one is the slow one between Exeter and Plymouth, a new line of just 45 miles would reduce journey times of just over an hour to less than half that, possibly as short as 20 minutes. This could run parallel to the A38. A short spur of there towards Newton Abbot would take care of those towns and cut commute times towards Exeter as well.

It's a large investment, but so was the M5 or the current dual carriageways, and it's quite a big reduction in journey times, compared to the length of new track, you don't need any new stations either.

Compared to other sections of the Great Western, you won't see such big reductions in journey times, which seem to play so heavily in BCR's

 

[HSTEd]

Where's the demand going to come from though? It's all very well spending a lot of money to improve journey times but there still has to be a reason for people to travel. Plymouth doesn't really have more to offer than Exeter so I can't see much reason for people to travel the extra 50 miles.

Well to go back to one of my stereotypical statements (constructing Shinkansen in all directions).

If (for the sake of argument) a London-Bristol-Exeter high speed line was to be constructed, there would be a major benefit in extending it to Plymouth via a direct overland route because it would permit London-Plymouth and London-Liskeard journey times to be around one hour.

The second homes in Devon and the East of Cornwall would become accessible to the London commuter belt, which might go a long way to aleviating the economic problems they cause.
60km of high speed line would reduce the journey time for Bristol/London to Plymouth by a further ~50 minutes.

That would almost certainly blow up demand on that corridor, both in terms of abstracting holiday revenue in the summer but also in creating long distance commuter flows as people would be able to commute from where they used to have holiday homes. (From Devon and East Cornwall they could reach London and from West Cornwall they could reach Bristol)

 

[Cliveblackpool]

Don't let the Cornish hear you say that!!!!

I am Cornish! (In exile in Blackpool!)
Truro has become a lot more popular in the last 20 yrs, and still increasing.
Not an easy commute by car.


Link to map of Dawlish diversions.
http://tinypic.com/view.php?pic=bi89qg&s=5#.UpURKSdNzVE

 

[Grumpy]

In the short to medium term all you are going to see is increased maintenance. If HS2 proves politically popular, then sometime in the 2030's other areas of the country could get their own high speed routes.

The routes to the West and SW out of London may only need selective high speed bypasses, but one obvious one is the slow one between Exeter and Plymouth, a new line of just 45 miles would reduce journey times of just over an hour to less than half that, possibly as short as 20 minutes. This could run parallel to the A38. A short spur of there towards Newton Abbot would take care of those towns and cut commute times towards Exeter as well.

It's a large investment, but so was the M5 or the current dual carriageways, and it's quite a big reduction in journey times, compared to the length of new track, you don't need any new stations either.

Compared to other sections of the Great Western, you won't see such big reductions in journey times, which seem to play so heavily in BCR's

You don't need to wait forever to build a new high speed route to the South West, you just need to make better use of what you've got now. Birmingham to Exeter is approx. 170 miles of mainly straight well laid out railway with the through services operated by 125mph capable trains. Yet how much of the 170 miles is run at 125mph? Zilch.
At the same time we have trains from London ambling round the curves on the Berks and Hants. The only place they do 125 is between Paddington and Reading.
The cross country trainsets were built to tilt but this is now not used.
It's all madness.
There needs to be some stock swapping between the Cross Country and Paddington services. Up the prevailing line speed to Birmingham (and beyond) to 125mph, and run tilting trains from Paddington to Exeter and beyond. You don't need to spend a lot of money and wait 20 years to do this.

 

[Bevan Price]

May be look at re opening the North Cornwall Line most of trackbed is still there. But it would have to subisied to a large degree, just depends how much we want to cut down on car use, its for sure buses are a waste of time in that area.

Sadly, the North Cornwall line was a bit of a basket case. Between Okehampton & Wadebridge, apart from Launceston, it served only a few villages or very small towns. Photos show several stations virtually in the middle of nowhere. Smallish settlements on the North Cornish coast (e.g. Boscastle, Tintagel, Port Isaac) were all located several miles north of the line.

 

[yorksrob]

Sadly, the North Cornwall line was a bit of a basket case. Between Okehampton & Wadebridge, apart from Launceston, it served only a few villages or very small towns. Photos show several stations virtually in the middle of nowhere. Smallish settlements on the North Cornish coast (e.g. Boscastle, Tintagel, Port Isaac) were all located several miles north of the line.

But for a Doc Martin/Arthurian Legend themed preserved railway it would be ideal

 

[DavidBrown]

I've seen plenty of posts as to why regional travel to Plymouth needs to be improved - and don't get me wrong, I completely agree. I would have more local services from Plymouth to Penzance, Exeter and Tavistock, and more local stations for places like Plympton. What I've not yet seen though, apart from a little bit from HSTEd on second homes (which is not something we want to be encouraging!), is any reason why connections to London need to be improved. I'm of the opinion that current services are enough (even if quicker services would be nice), and it's not something that justifies the billions that a new 40-odd mile line would cost. A new Dawlish avoiding line, however, would benefit BOTH Plymouth and Torbay (pop. 181,200 source) - and therefore is massively more viable and justifiable.

 

[The Ham]

I've seen plenty of posts as to why regional travel to Plymouth needs to be improved - and don't get me wrong, I completely agree. I would have more local services from Plymouth to Penzance, Exeter and Tavistock, and more local stations for places like Plympton. What I've not yet seen though, apart from a little bit from HSTEd on second homes (which is not something we want to be encouraging!), is any reason why connections to London need to be improved. I'm of the opinion that current services are enough (even if quicker services would be nice), and it's not something that justifies the billions that a new 40-odd mile line would cost. A new Dawlish avoiding line, however, would benefit BOTH Plymouth and Torbay (pop. 181,200 source) - and therefore is massively more viable and justifiable.

The likely lack of a buisness case for much in the way of infrastructure improvements is why I suggested that we need to look at increasing the frequency (potentially with some services being run by shorter trains and/or running services which split to run to more than one end point). In doing so the speed improvement comes from not having to wait so long between services, which then in turn makes rail travel more attractive, which attracts more people which finaly makes infrastructure improvements more viable, potentially to the point of them needing doing.

 

[Xavi]

I agree that traffic generated from both Exeter and Plymouth are equally important. The present traffic on the Paddington route via Berks & Hants easily warrants an hourly non-stop Reading - Taunton fast with separate semi-fasts servicing intermediate stops and is long overdue. The speed profile of the B&H route is not really a problem at 100/110 mph all the way apart from one very short sub-100 mph stretch. Removing the Reading bottleneck and improving signalling headways between Cogload and Castle Cary (reduced recovery time) will make 2 hour Exeter - Paddington times the norm (even with current rolling stock) and very acceptable if the hourly fast timetable went ahead. Reading - Taunton is regularly covered in a comfortable 1 hr 15 mins not bad for 107 miles - 85.6 mph average.

What some contributors should note is that the hinterland of Exeter (not Plymouth) has the largest population west of Bristol. That's one reason why the railways are busier there - the two main stations are within 3/4 mile of each other (very few journeys between the two) and generated 4.2 million journeys (excluding interchanges) in 2011/12. Plymouth generated 2.6 million journeys.

Another clue to the relative importance and wealth of the two city's hinterlands is that retail sales in Exeter exceed those of Plymouth despite the headline population of the latter being double.

 

[MarkyT]

Whilst the the Okehampton route is well engineered and mostly intact there are a number of difficulties incorporating this into the national network as anything other than a local link:

- The route north of Dartmoor avoids major population centres
- junctions at both Exeter AND Plymouth face the wrong way and are situated the wrong side of the cities to facilitate easy through running - time consuming reversals would be required.

The pre-war GWR cut-off proposal, avoiding the Dawlish sea wall section, was designed to continue serving Newton Abbot and Torbay, but I believe some of the land required for that design are built over now. As an alternative to this I have an alternative modern scheme for Exeter to Newton Abbot running via Chudleigh and partly following the A38. This would be around 8km shorter than the existing route and could be capable of much higher speed than the existing route, leading to time savings of around 10 minutes for express trains compared to the speed limited sea wall route. The route does not attempt to serve any intermediate stations, avoiding Dawlish and Teignmouth to find a shorter path further inland than the old GWR scheme, although there might be case for a Chudleigh stop. Hence I assume the sea wall route would remain for local trains, although might be reduced partially to single track so the problematic outer platform at Dawlish station could be removed, and the remaining track moved to the centre of the formation to make it less vulnerable to both sea wall damage and to landslides from the adjacent cliffs. Largely level, the existing route might also remain preferable for what little freight survives in the far west, although anything continuing beyond Newton Abbot would still have to negotiate the steep gradients towards Plymouth. An important element of the increased capacity provided would be to allow express trains to overtake slower local and freight trains, allowing more frequent, regular and reliable 'Devon Metro' services to run between Exeter and Torbay

A sketch of the proposal: http://www.townend.me/files/southdevon.pdf

 

[HSTEd]

What I've not yet seen though, apart from a little bit from HSTEd on second homes (which is not something we want to be encouraging!), is any reason why connections to London need to be improved.

Well second homes would not survive sub 1hr journeys to Plymouth, since they would likely become commuter homes instead.

 

[Woody]

For what its worth this headline has just appeared in my local rag, the Plymouth evening Herald.
"Transport Secretary hints at Plymouth rail link boost following closure of airport"

Read more: http://www.plymouthherald.co.uk/x12/story-20223288-detail/story.html#ixzz2lnuKYgUw

 

[The Ham]

Whilst the the Okehampton route is well engineered and mostly intact there are a number of difficulties incorporating this into the national network as anything other than a local link:

- The route north of Dartmoor avoids major population centres
- junctions at both Exeter AND Plymouth face the wrong way and are situated the wrong side of the cities to facilitate easy through running - time consuming reversals would be required.

Which is why it would most likely be used for local services with few stations and if it where to have a semi regular timetabled service to London (say 1 every 4 hours) that the service would only run as far west as Plymouth and would run via Sailsbury (not that it couldn't run towards Newton Abbot again on the existing line to provide a better service to those or new stations and/or to enable some more of the express services to skip a few more stations).

Yes it's possible that it's unlikely to compeate with the existing Plymouth to Exeter services (unless it can run so that its average speed, including station stops is over 55mph), however it would likely provide a faster service from Tavistock to Exeter than going via Plymouth. Although there may well be times when people would chose to go the long way around, if for instance it otherwise ment a long wait or if the train they would catch was full and standing so going the long way means having a seat.

 

[HowardGWR]

Whilst the the Okehampton route is well engineered and mostly intact there are a number of difficulties incorporating this into the national network as anything other than a local link:

- The route north of Dartmoor avoids major population centres
- junctions at both Exeter AND Plymouth face the wrong way and are situated the wrong side of the cities to facilitate easy through running - time consuming reversals would be required.

Remember the existing route would continue to exist and so the Okehampton route justifies itself on its own merits and three quarters of it will be opened shortly to pax traffic or is already so open. Both Okehampton and Tavistock are to 'enjoy' major urban housing development over the next decades. These developments will be mainly occupied by commuters. Don't forget Crediton either. So a healthy sub-regional service is to be expected shortly. There will also be a parkway station outside Okehampton, so that will undoubtedly be used by pax from further west.

On the second point, I don't quite see that. The fact that one exits Plymouth westwards -so what? Trains can reverse very quickly when they can be driven from both ends. At Exeter one could quite easily run through St Davids to Exeter Central (that station really is central, unlike St Davids, that is out of town). If the line to Yeovil and on to Castle Cary is fully dualled
and improved, one has a fast route to London. It should be remembered that from Taunton, the route via Bristol is in fact a quicker and better engineered one. An HST that is diverted via Bristol will sometimes end up at Reading before time!

So I think there are lots of options for the SW without doing much more than connecting Tavi to Okey and dualling the fast bits across the top of the moor.

The direct route from EXE to NA should be maintained as a plan in the bottom drawer just in case of climate change being calamitous.

 

[The Ham]

Remember the existing route would continue to exist and so the Okehampton route justifies itself on its own merits and three quarters of it will be opened shortly to pax traffic or is already so open. Both Okehampton and Tavistock are to 'enjoy' major urban housing development over the next decades. These developments will be mainly occupied by commuters. Don't forget Crediton either. So a healthy sub-regional service is to be expected shortly. There will also be a parkway station outside Okehampton, so that will undoubtedly be used by pax from further west.

Quite, Okehampton to Plymouth and Tavistock to Exeter rail journey times would be such that rail become a viable travel option. Both of which would likely add to the number of people using the line. Before adding on any benefit seen from longer distance rail travel and/or any form of improvements to services.

 

[samhurst612]

I have been a bit quiet the last few days however I am making record of all the opinions and potential plans put forward by all. I am meeting with my tutor and group on Friday to discuss our options!

One question I asked the other day and would like to ask again; how are lines sped up (namely the Exeter-Plymouth line)? Is it a case of smoother less bumpy tracks, larger curvatures, better rolling stock (acceleration, speed, tilting etc..) or a combination of all?

 

[MarkyT]

Reopening the ex LSWR route fully via Okehampton to Plymouth could offer an opportunity to rethink franchise boundaries in that area. Waterloo - Exeter trains could be extended to form the Plymouth service, with minimal stops thereby providing an attractive direct journey time from Plymouth to Honiton, Axminster, Yeovil and Salisbury as well as a direct journey to the well sited Exeter Central station. Not all trains need be extended and where 6 or more cars run east of Exeter, sets could split and join at Exeter with only part trains going forward. Some trains or portions could also run from Waterloo to Barnstaple which suggests the possibilty of the SW operator in addition taking over the entire cluster of local services radiating from Exeter - i.e the Torbay and Exmouth branches and (possibly) Plymouth local lines, leaving the GW operator with only longer distance services operating through St. Davids station. At Exeter, Devon local and SW main line trains could share DMU servicing facilities as well as a common train crew pool. By contrast local services in Cornwall probably do sit better with the long distance operator, in the way that the longer distance suburban operations out of Paddington and Thames Valley locals and branches are more efficiently operated by the GW operator, even though the inner all stations suburban service as far as Reading seems likely to be taken over by a TfL Crossrail operator. It could be a resurgence of the Southern in Devon, although whilst operated by SWT could be seen as a monopoly too far with most bus services in Exeter, Torbay and North Devon also being under Stagecoach control. On the other hand, such a monopoly, if regulated properly, could assist in agreeing common multimodal timetables, fares and ticketing arrangements across the county, helping to make public transport more attractive as a whole.

 

[Grumpy]

I have been a bit quiet the last few days however I am making record of all the opinions and potential plans put forward by all. I am meeting with my tutor and group on Friday to discuss our options!

One question I asked the other day and would like to ask again; how are lines sped up (namely the Exeter-Plymouth line)? Is it a case of smoother less bumpy tracks, larger curvatures, better rolling stock (acceleration, speed, tilting etc..) or a combination of all?

I am sure that someone more knowledgeable than me may be able to give you more detailed advices but broadly you are right re the combination of factors. The phrase "smoother less bumpy tracks" is one I suspect Civil Engineers don't use but would include such as rail age, wear, and condition, ballast condition and depth, bridge condition/resonance, sleeper type and spacing, earthworks, mining subsidence, tunnel conditions/clearances etc. all of which could all be a constraint on speed.

You mention curvature but that encompasses not only the horizontal curves but also and vertical curvature. Related to this is cant (i.e. tilting the track to allow higher speed through curves). Increasing the speed over junctions by higher speed pointwork may be a possibility. Signalling e.g. spacing may be a constraint on speed and might be looked at and similarly level crossings.

I hope that gives you a bit more to go on-I'm not sure what applies west of Exeter

 

[The Ham]

One question I asked the other day and would like to ask again; how are lines sped up (namely the Exeter-Plymouth line)? Is it a case of smoother less bumpy tracks, larger curvatures, better rolling stock (acceleration, speed, tilting etc..) or a combination of all?

It is likely to be a combination of them all, however that is likely to be due to the fact that it will be a lot of little improvements as time goes by rather than lots happening all at once.

 

[LateThanNever]

You don't need to wait forever to build a new high speed route to the South West, you just need to make better use of what you've got now. Birmingham to Exeter is approx. 170 miles of mainly straight well laid out railway with the through services operated by 125mph capable trains. Yet how much of the 170 miles is run at 125mph? Zilch.
At the same time we have trains from London ambling round the curves on the Berks and Hants. The only place they do 125 is between Paddington and Reading.
The cross country trainsets were built to tilt but this is now not used.
It's all madness.
There needs to be some stock swapping between the Cross Country and Paddington services. Up the prevailing line speed to Birmingham (and beyond) to 125mph, and run tilting trains from Paddington to Exeter and beyond. You don't need to spend a lot of money and wait 20 years to do this.

Thoroughly agree with this. The wonderful accelleration of the Voyagers makes them occasionally early even on the Plymouth-Exeter up hill and down dale run. If they could tilt we'd be in business - no new lines required!
(In any case a new allignment is unlikely - the granite of Dartmoor was a problem for Brunel and is still a big barrier now with lots of tunnelling required to keep the line anywhere near speedy.)
The other essential thing that needs sorting is the consequences of Cowley bridge flooding. It may not be that regular - though it was last year - but it cuts off most of Devon including Exeter, Barnstaple, Torbay and Plymouth, and all of Cornwall from the rest of the UK. The alternative route out via Honiton cannot cope with significant numbers of diversions and seemingly none to Birmingham or the North. In order to provide the greatest happiness for the greatest number rather than spend a fortune on reengineering Cowley Bridge probably the Honiton line should receive some investment as a proper diversionary route with also a station link for Exeter airport which would help compensate for Plymouth's airport closure.
Of course that would mean SWT running to Plymouth and Cornwall again but now with a tilting Voyager...

 

[HSTEd]

If they can bore through solid mountains elsewhere I don't expect Dartmoor would cause that much trouble. Also a PDL can have ateep gradients that freight trains can't handle. Brunel couldn't have sustained 2.5% climbs really.