Improving the Connectivity of the South West

[LateThanNever]

If they can bore through solid mountains elsewhere I don't expect Dartmoor would cause that much trouble. Also a PDL can have ateep gradients that freight trains can't handle. Brunel couldn't have sustained 2.5% climbs really.

I agree of course it can be done but at what price? That's the reason there is no motorway to Plymouth but only a sometimes upgraded, dualled, twisty and up and downy (Haldon Hill must be one of the longest and steepest climbs on a UK dual carriageway) A38!

 

[HSTEd]

I agree of course it can be done but at what price? That's the reason there is no motorway to Plymouth but only a sometimes upgraded, dualled, twisty and up and downy (Haldon Hill must be one of the longest and steepest climbs on a UK dual carriageway) A38!

And that is the crux of the problem.
It would be quite possible to build a high speed line over Dartmoor with only relatively few tunnels if you were willing to accept large embankments and viaducts, but I doubt the environmentalists would like that very much.
It would probably end up as a 'Dartmoor base tunnel' which would cost something on order of ~£1.5bn if the figures from other projects (~£30/km for twin bore tunnel) are to be believed.

The one advantage to such a tunnel would be that it would have shallow gradients and would thus be able to take freight trains easily if that was desired.

It depends on whether you think the social and economic imperative of improving transport links to the far South West are worth this cost.
I happen to believe they are, especially in combination with a future HS-SW project.

Drastically improving the transport links would reduce the demand for second homes which would eliminate the deleterious effects they have in terms of damaging funding for public services and in damaging the local economy in the off-season.

 

[LateThanNever]

And that is the crux of the problem.
It depends on whether you think the social and economic imperative of improving transport links to the far South West are worth this cost.
I happen to believe they are, especially in combination with a future HS-SW project.

Drastically improving the transport links would reduce the demand for second homes which would eliminate the deleterious effects they have in terms of damaging funding for public services and in damaging the local economy in the off-season.

Broadly agree with this too, but with the relatively small population in the SW (although with the amount of fuss over Scotland with a total population less than London's I'm tempted to sign up for the Cornish Nationalists!) is regrettably unlikely to lead to great investment I fear. That's why I think tilt to Plymouth - even if only on the Exeter - Plymouth section, which would in any case benefit long distance journeys to Cornwall - is worth really campaigning for...

 

[HowardGWR]

Drastically improving the transport links would reduce the demand for second homes which would eliminate the deleterious effects they have in terms of damaging funding for public services and in damaging the local economy in the off-season.

What deleterious effects? I live here and believe me, the second home, holiday home and retirement industry keep the local economy going. I think you need to do some research before coming out with these statements.

My neighbour artisans are continually in work being paid by the people I've just mentioned. If they went (they won't though unless the green areas are trashed) all these working people who depend on the western SW ( that's from South Somerset and West Dorset westwards to Land's End, well the Scilly Isles actually) remaining relatively untouched and beautiful, would suffer.

 

[The Ham]

What deleterious effects? I live here and believe me, the second home, holiday home and retirement industry keep the local economy going. I think you need to do some research before coming out with these statements.

My neighbour artisans are continually in work being paid by the people I've just mentioned. If they went (they won't though unless the green areas are trashed) all these working people who depend on the western SW ( that's from South Somerset and West Dorset westwards to Land's End, well the Scilly Isles actually) remaining relatively untouched and beautiful, would suffer.

Second homes which are empy for about 1/2 the year do not provide the regular spending in the local economy that someone living there full time could. That is not to say that they sometime spend large amounts on one off things which does keep the economy going. However if it was possible to be in the city of london in 2 hours, then the spending of people living in Corwall and working in the city would be much higher than if they own a second home.

 

[HSTEd]

What deleterious effects? I live here and believe me, the second home, holiday home and retirement industry keep the local economy going. I think you need to do some research before coming out with these statements.

Second homes cannot possibly provide the same boost to the economy that would be provided by commuter homes which are likely to replace them the improvements to the local transport system that I propsoe.

I never mentioned anything about the retirement industry or holiday homes?
Have you not noticed the fact that council finances in the South West have suffered massive damage due to the exemptions that were, until recently, extended to second homes in terms of council tax?

Additionally if the Cornish economy is in such good condition, why is it one of the few areas in Britain to recieve Convergence Funding from the EU on the basis of having a substandard regional GDP?

My neighbour artisans are continually in work being paid by the people I've just mentioned. If they went (they won't though unless the green areas are trashed) all these working people who depend on the western SW ( that's from South Somerset and West Dorset westwards to Land's End, well the Scilly Isles actually) remaining relatively untouched and beautiful, would suffer.

Cornwall is one of the most intensively worked industrial landscapes to have existed in modern history, it is far from 'untouched'.
And second homes would simply not survive Plymouth and Liskeard being in the outer commuter belt of London because most of them would rapidly become commuter houses.

Why have a second house in Peterborough or Northampton and a holiday home in Cornwall when you can live in the 'holiday home' full time and still keep your job?

 

[HowardGWR]

I think that you are both underestimating the influence of the NODAMs. If what you want (or at least HSTEd does) happens, then the resulting environment would put off perhaps as many as it would attract. I don't dispute what you say, I am just saying that isn't a picture of the future that would be welcomed by those SW residents outside the SW cities. Yes parts of each area are not pretty but it's all relative. I regard Torbay bungalow-ville as a worse looking area than the china clay area of Cornwall, for instance. It's a subjective view but held by many down here (and they typically run the councils). Compare with the Chilterns NODAMs who are in the news at present.

 

[Grumpy]

What deleterious effects? I live here and believe me, the second home, holiday home and retirement industry keep the local economy going. I think you need to do some research before coming out with these statements.

.

And have you asked them about the effect on house prices particularly in respect of young local families trying to get on the housing ladder?

 

[455driver]

If they can bore through solid mountains elsewhere I don't expect Dartmoor would cause that much trouble. Also a PDL can have ateep gradients that freight trains can't handle. Brunel couldn't have sustained 2.5% climbs really.

How many of these mountains are made of granite?

 

[HSTEd]

How many of these mountains are made of granite?

A large portion of the mountains in the Alps are made either of granitic rocks or rocks with similar properties that happen to belong to the basaltic family instead. Including the occlusion that stands in the way of the Gotthard Base Tunnel.

Granite is no match for tungsten carbide.

 

[59CosG95]

Cashing in on the trend that "if you build it they will come", do you think that, if the existing line is upgraded and/or HS3 goes to the South-West, business in Exeter, Plymouth, Torbay and Truro will increase exponentially, as they will be just over an hour from London? It may cause a collapse in the second home market but tourism from home would be BiG-just look at the people who take day trips to Brighton.

 

[HSTEd]

I would expect the South West to match the South East as a London commuter homeland, and yes, there would likely be an explosion of day tourism as people take advantage of the short journey times.

But people will likely spin that as a negative because it will allow 'undesirables' to come.

 

[59CosG95]

I would expect the South West to match the South East as a London commuter homeland, and yes, there would likely be an explosion of day tourism as people take advantage of the short journey times.

But people will likely spin that as a negative because it will allow 'undesirables' to come.

Fair enough about the "undesirables", but in the interim, I suggest we open the line west of Exeter and the Berks&Hants to tilting trains (Voyagers, Japanese tilting DMUs, Aussie tilting DMUs etc.) until an electric solution can be reached (if there's ever enough demand for it!)

 

[The Ham]

Fair enough about the "undesirables", but in the interim, I suggest we open the line west of Exeter and the Berks&Hants to tilting trains (Voyagers, Japanese tilting DMUs, Aussie tilting DMUs etc.) until an electric solution can be reached (if there's ever enough demand for it!)

Tilting trains could be a good idea, however I would have thought that between London and Exeter it wouldn't save that much time and I'm not sure that they would be that useful on lower speed sections of line. As such it may be better to spend the money required to put TASS in on other projects which increase the line speeds for all trains.

Exeter (at least) is close enough to Bristol with farily good fast straight track that there could be a case of extending some HS services over the existing tracks to there just so the station at Bristol doesn't have to cope with as many terminating trains. With then the line avoiding Dawlish being built to allow those services to run on to Plymouth as well at a good speed.

 

[plymothian]

I'd say it depends on your definition of 'connectivity'.

If you mean offering more destinations then opening the SR route would provide connections to more places.

If you mean getting to places quicker then doubling single lines, resignalling, and wiring the existing network, and/or building a faster/straighter route.

If you mean enabling a disruption free service then sorting out the problem areas that cause the line to be closed during adverse weather.

I'm not sure how difficult it could be to weave a new (2 track?) railway along the Teign Valley line as opposed to retunnelling under Haldon Hill.

 

[sor]

And have you asked them about the effect on house prices particularly in respect of young local families trying to get on the housing ladder?

The situation is already poor - we have the same problem with ridiculous house prices but with tiny average incomes. Perhaps a much better rail line might actually help the latter?

It's not really going to change much in terms of affordability. The council is quite determined to build as many cheaply built, timber-frame rabbit hutches as they can squeeze into any given patch of land though (into villages with already very busy roads and schools that are full and can't expand due to said council permitting development on every bit of land around the school).

 

[Woody]

Another major problem now with FGW services from Penzance to Paddington particularly within Cornwall itself is the general poor timekeeping of services as a result of some of the worst wheel slip conditions we have experieced for many years, particularly with east bound FGW HSTs trying to restart from Bodmin Parkway on Largin Bank. This mornng is no exception to what is becoming a very unreliable HST services out of Cornwall these days. This morning the 08.35 Penzance/Paddington HST got stuck on Largin bank (a not unusual ocurence these days) and has just arrived at Liskeard as I type 112 minutes late seriously delaying the following XC Penzance/Berwick on Tweed and the 09.47 Penzance/Paddington. FGW have a real problem in these parts with wheel slip making the train service between Penzance/Plymouth and even beyond very unreliable. This of course is in addition to the problems caused by the far south wests historically under invested rail infrastructure already talked about in this thread. During both the Summer (overcrowding/loading /unloading times) and Winter (wheelslip), FGW now struggles daily west of Exeter to try replicate what British Rail did with far less government support 40 years ago and that includes the pre HST 1970s class 50 loco hauled era. They wouldnt get away with the mess passengers have to regularly endure in Devon and Cornwall west of Exeter now any where else in the country. If it were the Thames valley all hell would of broken loose by now, but of course it is not, so the powers that be are able to carry on sweeping the problems under the carpet. West of Exeter is now beginning to feels more like the pre beeching era rather than the 21st century HS2/electrification/new train era the rest of the country is now or about to experience. I hope I am wrong!

 

[LateThanNever]

I'm not sure how difficult it could be to weave a new (2 track?) railway along the Teign Valley line as opposed to retunnelling under Haldon Hill.

Pretty certain the straight bits have dissappeared into Alphington road 'improvements' and the A38 and the curvy bits which are definitely considerably more numerous than the Dawlish route are single track and therefore not 'worth' joining up. In any case WEAVE would cerainly be the correct terminology!
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Another major problem now with FGW services from Penzance to Paddington particularly within Cornwall itself is the general poor timekeeping of services as a result of some of the worst wheel slip conditions we have experieced for many years, particularly with east bound FGW HSTs trying to restart from Bodmin Parkway on Largin Bank. This mornng is no exception to what is becoming a very unreliable HST services out of Cornwall these days. This morning the 08.35 Penzance/Paddington HST got stuck on Largin bank (a not unusual ocurence these days) and has just arrived at Liskeard as I type 112 minutes late seriously delaying the following XC Penzance/Berwick on Tweed and the 09.47 Penzance/Paddington. FGW have a real problem in these parts with wheel slip making the train service between Penzance/Plymouth and even beyond very unreliable. This of course is in addition to the problems caused by the far south wests historically under invested rail infrastructure already talked about in this thread. During both the Summer (overcrowding/loading /unloading times) and Winter (wheelslip), FGW now struggles daily west of Exeter to try replicate what British Rail did with far less government support 40 years ago and that includes the pre HST 1970s class 50 loco hauled era. They wouldnt get away with the mess passengers have to regularly endure in Devon and Cornwall west of Exeter now any where else in the country. If it were the Thames valley all hell would of broken loose by now, but of course it is not, so the powers that be are able to carry on sweeping the problems under the carpet. West of Exeter is now beginning to feels more like the pre beeching era rather than the 21st century HS2/electrification/new train era the rest of the country is now or about to experience. I hope I am wrong!

Surely Worst Late Western get penalised for this when they arrive late at Paddington or do they just claim it's all down to Network Rail?

 

[Woody]

I think the following "BBC Devon" link this morning http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-devon-25177975 clearly shows which way the wind is blowing in the 21st century regarding the governments attitude to rail investment west of Exeter now. With the government planning more "dualling" of the A30 single carriageway "gap" at Temple on Bodkin Moor on top of the £120 million “dualling” of the A381, the much needed Torbay Link road now in progress, all the significant centres of economic activity west of Exeter will be linked to the M5 at Exeter by fast and direct dual carriageway roads (Cornwall A30, Plymouth A38, Torbay A381) and in Cornwall’s case a subsidized air link to the capital as well. It no wonder that the fast rail link from Exeter eastwards are more popular than the slow and sinuous rail link west of Exeter and the government knows this of course hence the aforementioned subsidised air link from Newquay to London.