Incident at Talerddig, Wales - 21/10/2024

[hexagon789]

Looking at this Wikipedia page, this is the first crash in Wales that resulted in a passenger death since 1950 (Penmaenmawr) and the UK since 2020 (Stonehaven, Scotland).

Except the collision didn't directly kill them, they suffered a heart attack I understand.

No less tragic of course.

 

[Peterperfect]

My tuppenceworth. The 2 trains arrive on the single line facing each other with the overlap needing to time out before the points can move to allow one into the loop to pass.
The train that slid was breaking to the stop board which can be seen on Google street view. Also a sign says no more than 15mph over the points. Hence low speed impact.
The RHTT was booked through 3-4 hours later. Unfortunate or what.

 

[Horizon22]

Except the collision didn't directly kill them, they suffered a heart attack I understand.

No less tragic of course.

The issue is of course cause and effect. Would they have tragically lost their life and had a heart attack if they weren’t a passenger involved in a train collision?

 

[bramling]

I'm not sure on the technical aspect, as you'd have to factor in many variables.
Time, distance travelled and speed, any overlap distance available.

Crucial one would be time. How long from passing the loop until the collision.

Does anyone know how far passed the loop the Collision was.

Looking at the photos, it appears the down train has managed to travel around 900 yards beyond the end of the loop. That’s quite some distance, but the gradient there does fall very steeply towards Machynlleth.

This should have given the driver of the down train enough opportunity to leave the cab, but clearly this doesn’t seem to have been the case for the up train. Looking at the way one of the trains has taken the brunt of the collision, it does seem likely the ETCS may have brought that train to a stand. If that’s the case then it will have very significantly reduced the severity of the incident.

Whilst there does seem to be some attempt to play this down as a “low-speed collision”, this is clearly a pretty serious incident.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

Looking at this Wikipedia page, this is the first crash in Wales that resulted in a passenger death since 1950 (Penmaenmawr) and the UK since 2020 (Stonehaven, Scotland).

Typo?

 

[Unixman]

As I recall, from many years back, Talerddig is at the line's summit where surely the 1 in 52 down to Llanbrynmair hasn't yet begun, and trees etc are relatively sparse. As the down train was booked to cross there it seems odd that it proceeded on to the single line as a result of poor adhesion. Once on the single line and a steep gradient with more vegetation, however, I can see how poor adhesion could have contributed to a collision.
My second pont is that it is very difficult to assess speed of a train on continuously welded rail and with few lineside lights as points of reference. The last time I travelled by rail through Llanbrymair I recall sections of 40 ft jointed rail!

The summit is slightly further along the line at the cutting. I need to get my copy of Cristiansen and Miller out which has the gradient profile to be certain but I think that Talerddig itself is on a descending gradient towards Caersws.

 

[DaveHarries]

The Heart of Wales has also been closed now due to poor railhead conditions so it’s clear decisions are certainly being made differently today, unsurprisingly of course.

Reference the above comment, from Page 4, the closure of the HoW looks - if RTT speaks correctly - to have been a wise move.

2M04 (0547 Swansea - Shrewsbury) seems to have run without any huge delay as far as Llandovery but then took 1hr 9mins to get to Cynghordy, instead of the scheduled 8 minutes, and seems to have got no further than Cynghordy where it arrived 77 minutes late and there has been no move in the reverse direction so I guess 2M04, hauled by 153367 & 153935, has been left in situ. Likewise 2V04 (0522 Shrewsbury - Swansea), hauled by 153922 & 153312, only got as far as Knucklas where it arrived 78 minutes late (having been held at Knighton for 1hr 22min) and there has also been no subsequent train back from Knucklas to Shrewsbury.

2M04: https://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/service/gb-nr:L43174/2024-10-22/detailed#allox_id=0
2V04: https://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/service/gb-nr:L44350/2024-10-22/detailed#allox_id=1

I hope some means of transportation has been found for the crews and any passengers of both trains, especially the one at Cynghordy which is rather an isolated location.

Anyway sorry for going OT: back to the topic.

Dave

 

[alxndr]

They would have been, originally, though gas-pressure rather than a mechanical spring. I've no idea what's currently installed, there have been instances of those mechanisms being replaced with motored points, certainly in areas controlled by "No Signalman" key token, where the token withdrawal sets the points (and turns off TPWS). I don't know if that's a possibility with this ETCS arrangement.

I believe the points at both ends of the loop are clamp locks.

 

[Lurcheroo]

My tuppenceworth. The 2 trains arrive on the single line facing each other with the overlap needing to time out before the points can move to allow one into the loop to pass.
The train that slid was breaking to the stop board which can be seen on Google street view. Also a sign says no more than 15mph over the points. Hence low speed impact.
The RHTT was booked through 3-4 hours later. Unfortunate or what.

That’s back in the RETB days, very different now! Can go through there at 95KPH

 

[blueberry11]

Typo?

Idk if that means the link (it used to point to post-privatisation but I now pointed it to British Rail era) or the town name which isn't recognised by the spellchecker. Maybe that's why you thought it was a typo as I simply copied and pasted that town.

 

[Lurcheroo]

The summit is slightly further along the line at the cutting. I need to get my copy of Cristiansen and Miller out which has the gradient profile to be certain but I think that Talerddig itself is on a descending gradient towards Caersws.

No the loop is pretty much bang on the summit. Once you go through the points Mach end, your heading down again.

 

[Peterperfect]

Using Google maps and sky new helicopter views of incident the impact was 0.6 miles beyond the points at the loop.

 

[Tomos y Tanc]

This is going to cause real problems in a deeply rural area. The only two transport corridors are the railway and the A470. The road is due to be closed for seven weeks from the end of this month for urgent repairs (it's falling into the river). The plan was to use the railway to get kids to and from school and as a back-up for local travel. Having road and rail shut would essentially isolate a wide but thinly-populated area.

 

[bluenoxid]

Looking at this Wikipedia page, this is the first crash in Wales that resulted in a passenger death since 1950 (Penmaenmawr) and the UK since 2020 (Stonehaven, Scotland).

Sorry to be that person (and if I’ve misunderstood your point) but the Glanrhyd Bridge collapse from October 1987 is more recent. Someone might find a more recent incident as this isn’t something I keep track of.

 

[alxndr]

That’s back in the RETB days, very different now! Can go through there at 95KPH

Although the points are 50kph (31mph) according to the Sectional Appendix.

 

[Peterperfect]

That’s back in the RETB days, very different now! Can go through there at 95KPH


I won’t say much, as it’s not appropriate but I assure you that is not the case.

The train on the line would still have to stop to allow the train going into the loop. 95kmph would be only of the driver had a proceed with no need to brake.

I don't know enough about ETCS and was surprised that this in operation here. I thought it's just being installed slowly on East Coast lines.

 

[Krokodil]

My tuppenceworth. The 2 trains arrive on the single line facing each other with the overlap needing to time out before the points can move to allow one into the loop to pass.
The train that slid was breaking to the stop board which can be seen on Google street view. Also a sign says no more than 15mph over the points. Hence low speed impact.
The RHTT was booked through 3-4 hours later. Unfortunate or what.

Those images are ancient, they predate ETCS. I wouldn't rely on them as a guide to the current layout.

Reference the above comment, from Page 4, the closure of the HoW looks - if RTT speaks correctly - to have been a wise move.

2M04 (0547 Swansea - Shrewsbury) seems to have run without any huge delay as far as Llandovery but then took 1hr 9mins to get to Cynghordy, instead of the scheduled 8 minutes, and seems to have got no further than Cynghordy where it arrived 77 minutes late and there has been no move in the reverse direction so I guess 2M04, hauled by 153367 & 153935, has been left in situ. Likewise 2V04 (0522 Shrewsbury - Swansea), hauled by 153922 & 153312, only got as far as Knucklas where it arrived 78 minutes late (having been held at Knighton for 1hr 22min) and there has also been no subsequent train back from Knucklas to Shrewsbury.

2M04: https://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/service/gb-nr:L43174/2024-10-22/detailed#allox_id=0
2V04: https://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/service/gb-nr:L44350/2024-10-22/detailed#allox_id=1

I hope some means of transportation has been found for the crews and any passengers of both trains, especially the one at Cynghordy which is rather an isolated location.

Anyway sorry for going OT: back to the topic.

Dave

2M04 terminated at Llanwrtyd and formed 2T04 (the continuation of 2V04). 2V04 terminated at Knighton and formed 2Z04 (the continuation of 2M04).
.

 

[Bletchleyite]

This is going to cause real problems in a deeply rural area. The only two transport corridors are the railway and the A470. The road is due to be closed for seven weeks from the end of this month for urgent repairs (it's falling into the river). The plan was to use the railway to get kids to and from school and as a back-up for local travel. Having road and rail shut would essentially isolate a wide but thinly-populated area.

Can't see it taking that long to remove the units, they appear to be still on the rails.

 

[Krokodil]

I don't know enough about ETCS and was surprised that this in operation here. I thought it's just being installed slowly on East Coast lines.

The Cambrian was used as a testbed

 

[Horizon22]

At that exact point? Possibly no, but one suspects they'd not have had long left if so frail that an overwhelmingly scary situation was sufficient to trigger one (e.g. a fall in the street may have done instead).

Still tragic, but probably a loss of lifespan measured in months at most.

Of course, but still a loss of life is a loss of life and this is sadly where it happened.

 

[DanNCL]

Can't see it taking that long to remove the units, they appear to be still on the rails.

The units won’t be going anywhere until the RAIB give the go-ahead, which could take days.

 

[Peterperfect]

The Cambrian was used as a testbed

Thanks

 

[Narrowgauge725]

“The driver ran in and sat on a chair and said brace yourselves - we’re about to hit a train. Someone lost their teeth, cracked ribs. Because the driver told us it was happening, we could kind of get ready.”

Wales online

 

[61653 HTAFC]

Idk if that means the link (it used to point to post-privatisation but I now pointed it to British Rail era) or the town name which isn't recognised by the spellchecker. Maybe that's why you thought it was a typo as I simply copied and pasted that town.

Was thinking the year was the typo, but I'd confused the Llandeilo derailment (1987) with the incident being referred to at Penmaenmawr.
Weather related derailments due to infrastructure failures may not be classed as a "crash" in some people's eyes, though I personally wouldn't make that distinction when talking about time since the last fatality.

(EDIT- I see someone else has made pretty much the same point)

 

[Bletchleyite]

bear in mind that we don’t know for certain it was a heart attack

Some press reports are now stating this, so I think we can be reasonably sure it was correct, e.g.:

Man dies as two trains smash into each other on rural line

Two trains collided at low speed near Llanbrynmair in Powys, Wales, on Monday night. A man tragically died and 15 people were rushed to hospital after suffering injuries

www.mirror.co.uk

Authorities said all passengers were evacuated from both trains and added that the 15 injured passengers didn't suffer life-threatening or life-changing wounds. According to reports, a train driver suffered head injuries and a passenger had a heart attack after the crash.

Newspapers generally don't report things like that unless they're credible, as it would otherwise be potentially quite upsetting to family and it doesn't add much to the story for the general reader.

The units won’t be going anywhere until the RAIB give the go-ahead, which could take days.

Days rather than weeks in a simple case like this though.

 

[aar0]

Sorry to be that person (and if I’ve misunderstood your point) but the Glanrhyd Bridge collapse from October 1987 is more recent. Someone might find a more recent incident as this isn’t something I keep track of.

You are correct, that was the last fatal passenger accident in Wales.

 

[irish_rail]

Except the collision didn't directly kill them, they suffered a heart attack I understand.

No less tragic of course.

Well the one death attributed to the Grayrigg derailment in 2007 was under similar circumstances I believe.

 

[DaveHarries]

2M04 terminated at Llanwrtyd and formed 2T04 (the continuation of 2V04). 2V04 terminated at Knighton and formed 2Z04 (the continuation of 2M04).

Thanks. I am not a regular user of that line but I had been wondering.

Dave

 

[DanNCL]

Some press reports are now stating this, so I think we can be reasonably sure it was correct, e.g.:

Man dies as two trains smash into each other on rural line

Two trains collided at low speed near Llanbrynmair in Powys, Wales, on Monday night. A man tragically died and 15 people were rushed to hospital after suffering injuries

www.mirror.co.uk

Newspapers generally don't report things like that unless they're credible, as it would otherwise be potentially quite upsetting to family and it doesn't add much to the story for the general reader.

Newspapers regularly report things without making sure they’re credible - take for example the BBC still reporting that the train was going somewhere between 40mph-60mph when that’s been established to be false.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Newspapers regularly report things without making sure they’re credible - take for example the BBC still reporting that the train was going somewhere between 40mph-60mph when that’s been established to be false.

The BBC is not reporting that. It is reporting that a passenger was quoted as saying that, which is true. The passenger was wrong, but was just stating their impression when interviewed.

Here is the relevant bit:

Anthony Hurford, a passenger on the Aberystwyth-bound train, said he felt "pretty shellshocked" by the incident.
"The word that keeps coming to my head is just brutal really.
"Just going from, I don't know how fast we were going, maybe 40, 50, 60 miles an hour, to nothing in the blink of an eye," he told BBC Breakfast.
"Somehow my body bent the leg of a table and ripped it off its bolts attached to the wall.

Train crash Wales: Passenger dies and 15 hurt as two trains crash

A westbound train went about 1,000 metres beyond its stopping point to hit a stationary service.

www.bbc.co.uk