Incorrectly made to buy a new ticket -- some reassurance required

[johnsmith147]

Hello all,

This seems to be a good place to have a rant. I was travelling today from York to Durham, and had an advance ticket for the 16.17 TPE which was subsequently cancelled (not stopping at Durham, anyway). Knowing full well that TPE and LNER now have automatic ticket acceptance in place (though not very obviously to the general traveller), I got on the next LNER north (16.35 I think) after confirming the policy with the LNER dispatcher on the platform.

Upon by ticket being checked, the train manager immediately told me I'd need to buy a new, open single from York to Durham as by getting on the LNER I'd "agreed that I'd pay for a new ticket". Obviously that wasn't my intention, and it was a fair bit more than my original Advance fare (which I'll get refunded through delay repay anyway). I challenged this, and showed him the evidence on these sites:

https://www.gov.uk/government/news/...ip-to-keep-customers-moving-during-disruption

Cancelled Trains

www.lner.co.uk

The latter of which says:
"If your ticket is for an LNER, Northern or TransPennine Express train, you can travel on any of those operators between two hours before or two hours after your cancelled train or one of the two trains before or after your cancelled trains, including any connections"

Upon which he got very defensive, patronising and rude, along the lines of "I've been doing this job 10 years and am very good at it. We haven't heard anything about ticket acceptance". I paid up for the new ticket as I thought given that attitude I had no chance and didn't want a fine/worse. Was this incorrect and should I have held my ground?

Is this kind of misinformation in the face of obvious contradictory evidence common? I'm hoping my complaint (with evidence etc.) will be upheld but how many people who know less about rail fares than me would just be embarrassed and pay up thinking they've done something wrong? I've never had any problem with LNER staff ever before, and usually conductors are lenient in this sort of situation (if asked nicely) even if they don't have to be.

Happy to name and shame the guy, but I assume that's probably against the forum's policies...

Thanks for any thoughts...

Oliver

 

[Kite159]

And no doubt if you complain to LNER they will try and claim their member of staff was right and you should have waited for the next TPE etc but on this occasion as a gesture of goodwill they will send you a RTV for the ticket price you were forced to buy etc.

 

[transportphoto]

This is probably one for @David Horne - the Managing Director of LNER is a member of this forum although I don’t believe he has been online with us for some time.

Perhaps someone would be willing to flag this thread with David via social media?

 

[AlterEgo]

I know it’s easy to say this because in the situation, you might just *want to get home*, but: Don’t ever pay these people any money. Things don’t change unless people are difficult and stand their ground. Make the guard’s life hard. They’re the one in the wrong, they’re the one doubling down.

 

[paulttt]

My first post!

The train manager should have known - it is mentioned on the LNER website

Cancelled train?

If your LNER train is cancelled, here are your options. Most of the time, you won't need to buy a new ticket or get a refund.

www.lner.co.uk

 

[ainsworth74]

Complain to LNER and cite their own policy at them requesting a full refund of the additional ticket purchased and an assurance that they'll make sure that this is re-briefed out to all their staff. Separately make sure you claim delay repay from TPE for the cancelled train.

I wish I could say I was surprised but whilst many (indeed most!) LNER staff are excellent there are a few out there that either knowingly or unknowingly (or as in my case at Newcastle station both at the same time!) get things wrong and give the industry, their employer and their colleagues a bad name.

 

[Haywain]

Was this incorrect and should I have held my ground?

On LNER you should have held your ground and refused to pay. You would then have been issued with an Unpaid Fare Notice which would have given you the opportunity to dispute the fare.

 

[johnsmith147]

This is probably one for @David Horne - the Managing Director of LNER is a member of this forum although I don’t believe he has been online with us for some time.

Perhaps someone would be willing to flag this thread with David via social media?

I think he's probably got better things to be doing than this! Would be better to figure out who's in charge of the briefings with regard to this kind of thing. And also stressing the importance to staff of believing things which appear on their own company's website (though of course, there's no reason that's 100% correct).

On LNER you should phave held your ground and refused to pay. You would then have been issued with an Unpaid Fare Notice which would have given you the opportunity to dispute the fare.

Perhaps I should have asked "and what if I don't" but given all the talk in recent weeks/months of overzealous prosecutions I really didn't want to get into it. After looking it up a bit then obviously it would have been fine given my evidence, but that is hindsight. Can't be very common that a UFN is issued with the customer in the right?

 

[transportphoto]

I think he's probably got better things to be doing than this! Would be better to figure out who's in charge of the briefings with regard to this kind of thing.

The person in charge of such is probably one of David’s line reports (e.g. Customer Experience Director, or their line report). He’s not that detached.

 

[Adam Williams]

I think he's probably got better things to be doing than this

It's pretty important in my view for senior staff in any B2C organisation to have some visibility of customer issues; particularly when things go wrong or problems end up getting attention / getting escalated. In this instance there was a policy announced with lots of fanfare; and this was supposed to be an example of how DfT OLR Holdings Limited DfT Operator Ltd was putting passenger needs during disruption ahead of whatever particular livery was on the side of the train. I'd like to know how many UFNs have been issued in similar circumstances since that announcement.

I've heard a lot of excuses over the years ("don't have the time"), but if you're not engaging with customers then how do you know that what you're actually spending time/have spent time on and led/delivered on helps improve their experience? It's how companies like Amazon have famously approached their customer service, and they've done pretty well historically due to it.

And of course, having visibility doesn't mean time needs to be wasted investigating the root cause of problems like this by someone with a lot of other responsibilities, it's the sort of thing you can forward to a report to look into.

 

[Haywain]

given all the talk in recent weeks/months of overzealous prosecutions I really didn't want to get into it.

Understandable, and I mean no criticism of you.

Can't be very common that a UFN is issued with the customer in the right?

The advantage of the UFN is that it is simply an invoice and, unlike a Penalty Fare, you start from a relatively neutral position.

I'd like to know how many UFNs have been issued in similar circumstances since that announcement.

To me it's more of a concern how many customers have been charged for a new ticket, which is effectively unrecorded.

I've been doing this job 10 years and am very good at it.

I guess we can say he was 50% right in that statement.

 

[Kite159]

..

On LNER you should have held your ground and refused to pay. You would then have been issued with an Unpaid Fare Notice which would have given you the opportunity to dispute the fare.

Until the guard decides to try to involve the BTP making a false claim of an abusive fare dodger which needs removing etc.

And knowing some of the staff on LNER, I wouldn't put it past them.

 

[David Horne]

Hello all,

This seems to be a good place to have a rant. I was travelling today from York to Durham, and had an advance ticket for the 16.17 TPE which was subsequently cancelled (not stopping at Durham, anyway). Knowing full well that TPE and LNER now have automatic ticket acceptance in place (though not very obviously to the general traveller), I got on the next LNER north (16.35 I think) after confirming the policy with the LNER dispatcher on the platform.

Upon by ticket being checked, the train manager immediately told me I'd need to buy a new, open single from York to Durham as by getting on the LNER I'd "agreed that I'd pay for a new ticket". Obviously that wasn't my intention, and it was a fair bit more than my original Advance fare (which I'll get refunded through delay repay anyway). I challenged this, and showed him the evidence on these sites:

https://www.gov.uk/government/news/...ip-to-keep-customers-moving-during-disruption

Cancelled Trains

www.lner.co.uk

The latter of which says:
"If your ticket is for an LNER, Northern or TransPennine Express train, you can travel on any of those operators between two hours before or two hours after your cancelled train or one of the two trains before or after your cancelled trains, including any connections"

Upon which he got very defensive, patronising and rude, along the lines of "I've been doing this job 10 years and am very good at it. We haven't heard anything about ticket acceptance". I paid up for the new ticket as I thought given that attitude I had no chance and didn't want a fine/worse. Was this incorrect and should I have held my ground?

Is this kind of misinformation in the face of obvious contradictory evidence common? I'm hoping my complaint (with evidence etc.) will be upheld but how many people who know less about rail fares than me would just be embarrassed and pay up thinking they've done something wrong? I've never had any problem with LNER staff ever before, and usually conductors are lenient in this sort of situation (if asked nicely) even if they don't have to be.

Happy to name and shame the guy, but I assume that's probably against the forum's policies...

Thanks for any thoughts...

Oliver

Hi Oliver

I am sorry to hear about this issue. Please send me an email at [email protected] with a copy of your ticket and we will get a refund sorted out for you.

I will also check that our Train Managers are aware of these ticket acceptance arrangements.

Thank you for raising it and apologies for the experience you had on this occasion.

David Horne

 

[robbeech]

Slightly off topic can we look forward to company specific fares ending when the whole system is back in public ownership?

Yes, we can.

However if we take this journey as an example York to Durham, there’s a TPE only flexible fare, the off peak return at £39 (no railcard).
The fare with no operator restriction is £27.70 each way as there are no returns available so £55.40.

If we remove these operator specific fares, what we will see is THE fare become £55.40



It’s good to see David here contributing to the post and looking to help. It’s a shame that this sort of thing has to get to this point and we can almost guarantee there will have been potentially thousands of revenue generated through this.
It’s a tricky situation for a business as they now have to spend money to provide training to staff which will result in a decrease in profit for them. You can understand why there can often be a reluctance.

 

[Lewisham2221]

Yes, we can.

Are you sure about this? Do you have a source confirming this?

It’s a tricky situation for a business as they now have to spend money to provide training to staff which will result in a decrease in profit for them. You can understand why there can often be a reluctance.

How much does it cost to spend a few minutes writing a staff notice and sending an email?

 

[johnsmith147]

Hi Oliver

I am sorry to hear about this issue. Please send me an email at [email protected] with a copy of your ticket and we will get a refund sorted out for you.

I will also check that our Train Managers are aware of these ticket acceptance arrangements.

Thank you for raising it and apologies for the experience you had on this occasion.

David Horne

Hi David,

Thank you for reading this and getting back to me! I'll email shortly. The kind of service I've always had from everyone else at LNER (in a way which I think is less universal at other TOCs) is superb, and very commendable.

I'm glad to know something will be done about it more generally too.

Oliver

Yes, we can.

However if we take this journey as an example York to Durham, there’s a TPE only flexible fare, the off peak return at £39 (no railcard).
The fare with no operator restriction is £27.70 each way as there are no returns available so £55.40.

If we remove these operator specific fares, what we will see is THE fare become £55.40



It’s good to see David here contributing to the post and looking to help. It’s a shame that this sort of thing has to get to this point and we can almost guarantee there will have been potentially thousands of revenue generated through this.
It’s a tricky situation for a business as they now have to spend money to provide training to staff which will result in a decrease in profit for them. You can understand why there can often be a reluctance.

Obviously is definitely off topic, but I'd come that this kind of anomaly would also disappear when the industry scraps silly return fares in general and just treats it as two singles. Fingers crossed!

 

[robbeech]

Are you sure about this? Do you have a source confirming this?

Rather depends on branding doesn’t it, if there’s 1 operator then we can’t have operator specific tickets as that doesn’t make sense. If we see different brands then we’d have to change the rules to allow brand restricted tickets aswell as operator restricted ones, or of course we could operate unlawfully for years like GTR.

We shouldn’t rule out new (or renewed) ticket types barring tickets from express services but that would be introducing more tickets adding to complication and I’m led to believe we’re supposed to be simplifying things…..

How much does it cost to spend a few minutes writing a staff notice and sending an email?

As much as possible. That’s how this sort of operation works. 10 meetings, 13 follow up emails, several drafts, hundreds of hours of people’s time overall.

Furthermore we mustn’t ignore the fact that unless they’ve made a horrific error (quite unlikely) then staff should already have been notified of this change but some have misunderstood or at worst chosen to ignore it. As such there will be debate as to how to get the message across and whether the initial methods used were sufficient.

Afterall, that member of staff has been there 10 years and is very good, imagine how poorly the ones who haven’t been there that long (or who have been there that long but aren’t very good) will do with this sort of information.

 

[Kite159]

Are you sure about this? Do you have a source confirming this?


How much does it cost to spend a few minutes writing a staff notice and sending an email?

Sending a staff notice via email is one thing, it's another thing getting staff to read & understand said notices.

 

[Haywain]

that member of staff has been there 10 years and is very good,

As stated previously, 50% of this is likely to be true (spoiler: not the second bit).

Until the guard decides to try to involve the BTP making a false claim of an abusive fare dodger which needs removing

Well, if the guard has a mind to do that, let them. All the BTP would do is advise the passenger to give a name and address.

 

[Lewisham2221]

Sending a staff notice via email is one thing, it's another thing getting staff to read & understand said notices.

Agreed, 100%. But I really wouldn't go expecting any more than that, plus the notice posted in relevant notice cases and a quick chat with a manage for the TM concerned. I certainly wouldn't be pinning my hopes on LNER (or any other TOC for that matter) suddenly filling a classroom with TMs and having a day off trains talking about ticket acceptance.

 

[transportphoto]

Agreed, 100%. But I really wouldn't go expecting any more than that, plus the notice posted in relevant notice cases and a quick chat with a manage for the TM concerned. I certainly wouldn't be pinning my hopes on LNER (or any other TOC for that matter) suddenly filling a classroom with TMs and having a day off trains talking about ticket acceptance.

I’d expect a whole staff re briefing is more likely than not. People won’t be taken off trains, but it’ll certainly get picked up if it’s noted there’s a general lack of awareness.

 

[SuspectUsual]

It’s a tricky situation for a business as they now have to spend money to provide training to staff which will result in a decrease in profit for them. You can understand why there can often be a reluctance

Not really. Businesses train their staff to deliver the services they’ve agreed to provide. End of

Almost all customer service roles - to some degree - fall into the "training that decreases profit" category, but good businesses train their staff to do the right thing. (And long term, of course, the bigger picture can look very different. If LNER didn't back down our OP may have chosen not to use them again, and therefore decrease their "profits" far more)

 

[AlterEgo]

How much does it cost to spend a few minutes writing a staff notice and sending an email?

The problem is actually around the railway’s culture and management, which is why you get people like the guard here insist their own authority trumps anything the company says on its own website. It’s always been like this. Management can’t solve the issue, so passengers have to, by being obstructive.

I would enjoy being confronted by this situation. It would just be “no thank you” and “leave me alone” to every request and the noise cancelling headphones going on. There is no lawful authority even to request one’s name or address in the circumstances described, as it is very clear no offence was being committed.

 

[johnsmith147]

In this case he explicitly stated "we (as train managers) have not been told of any acceptance rules in place with TPE, that's all the information I've been told and all I'm going to act upon". So either he was lying to me (which I doubt, why would he?) or indeed they haven't actually been told.

 

[Bletchleyite]

In this case he explicitly stated "we (as train managers) have not been told of any acceptance rules in place with TPE, that's all the information I've been told and all I'm going to act upon". So either he was lying to me (which I doubt, why would he?) or indeed they haven't actually been told.

Or he was told and has either forgotten or disregarded whatever email or brief he was told it in. Lying requires intent; one can tell a mistruth without lying.

 

[transportphoto]

In this case he explicitly stated "we (as train managers) have not been told of any acceptance rules in place with TPE, that's all the information I've been told and all I'm going to act upon". So either he was lying to me (which I doubt, why would he?) or indeed they haven't actually been told.

He’d be thinking of ticket acceptance messaging that TOCs often publish internally on the day during disruption and as requested by other TOCs - it’s unlikely that such a notice would have been published in this instance (but the business as usual arrangement had been forgotten/ignored by the individual.)

 

[NorthernSystem]

This is odd to me, as at our TOC (another DFT Operator/OLR TOC) it's in all of our ticketing/ticket acceptance briefs on internal comms systems (Tyrell/Arrakis). Sorry that this has been the experience you've received @johnsmith147, hopefully when/if you next travel, it will be a better experience.

Glad David has been able to respond to this thread also though.

 

[Haywain]

he was told and has either forgotten or disregarded whatever email or brief he was told it in.

I am sure this is what had happened. I am pretty sure we have already seen cases of people taking advantage of the arrangement without difficulty on LNER trains, so it must have been briefed.

 

[Hadders]

I suspect this is c**k up rather than conspiracy but good that LNER has taken steps to resolve this. Hopefully another briefing will be sent out to staff.

 

[Lloyds siding]

I am sure this is what had happened. I am pretty sure we have already seen cases of people taking advantage of the arrangement without difficulty on LNER trains, so it must have been briefed.

Sending a staff notice via email is one thing, it's another thing getting staff to read & understand said notices.

Yes, he ignored the stated ticket policy on the website, so why should he take any notice of an email or notice from his employer?