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Incredible delay...

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yorkie

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You just have to read this story, about someone whose journey from BHM to RET took an incredible 6 hours 41 minutes. :o This was posted at the uk.railway newsgroup. Be patient and read the whole story as it just gets worse and worse!
John Salmon said:
On Saturday (5th January) I used the 1430 Birmingham New Street -
York service as part of a journey to Retford. After calling at
Tamworth, Burton-on-Trent, Derby and Chesterfield, the train was due
into Sheffield at 1550 and Doncaster at 1615, so I should have
arrived at Retford at either 1653 (on the 1638 NXEC service from
Doncaster) or 1723 (on the 1644 Northern service from Sheffield.)
The train initially ran more or less to time, but shortly before we
arrived at Derby I noticed that the scrolling display inside the
train was no longer showing the Doncaster stop. During the station
stop at Derby (platform 1) I could see that the platform display was
also not showing Doncaster. No announcement had been made on the
train, so as we left Derby I contacted one of the on-train staff who
said that an announcement had just been made at Derby station, which
would be repeated on the train (which it duly was, but note that this
was not until after departure from Derby), to the effect that the
train would be diverted after Sheffield direct to York because of
cable theft, but a connection would be available at Sheffield for
Doncaster passengers. For this to make logical sense, it seemed to
me that the cable problem must be at a location north of Doncaster; I
asked the staff member if this was the case, but he gave a
non-committal answer. From all the above, it is clear to me that the
true nature of the problem was known to CrossCountry before the Derby
station stop, but they chose not to inform passengers. In my case, I
could have made much easier alternative travel arrangements to get
home to Retford via Nottingham, if the facts had been made known
before departure from Derby.

In the event, the train continued slowly forward until we reached a
point somewhere south of Chesterfield at 1535, where the train
remained stationary for 85 minutes, i.e. until 1700. It was only at
around 1545 that passengers were told that the problem was here, not
further north. Announcements were made approximately every 20
minutes. We eventually arrived at Chesterfield where an announcement
welcoming passengers aboard the 1533 service to York enabled me to
calculate that we were now 126 minutes late.

Most of the foregoing (except for the lack of accurate information
until after departure from Derby) was clearly outside the control of
CrossCountry, but it was the subsequent series of events that caused
the major problem. Bear in mind that at this stage, I was expecting
to have to change trains at Sheffield, where I could have sought
further information about the best way home. Two minutes before
arrival at Sheffield, the train manager announced that he had just
been informed that the train "would now run as scheduled to York".
This was somewhat ambiguous; there had been no previous suggestion to
passengers that the train might be curtailed short of York (although
I can imagine that could well have been the plan) and clearly the
train could not run "as scheduled" in terms of its advertised
timings. So did this mean the Doncaster call had been reinstated? If
so, why hadn't the fact been spelt out? As we arrived at Sheffield, I
found the train manager and asked if the train would call at
Doncaster. He said "Yes, didn't you hear the announcement?" When I
said that Doncaster hadn't been mentioned, he became quite sharp,
asked the shop assistant to verify the content of the announcement
and accused me of being rude (which I wasn't - I had calmly asked a
question.) I asked whether I should stay on the train or whether I
would get to Retford more quickly by changing at Sheffield. He said I
should have asked earlier (which I couldn't have done, because the
reinstatement of the Doncaster stop had only just been notified) but
when I pressed the point, he checked on his machine, said there was a
train scheduled at 1824 from Doncaster to Retford and advised me to
stay on board. I later found that this information was incorrect -
the Retford train left Doncaster at 1810 - but it didn't matter,
because things now got much worse...

We set off from Sheffield and made good progress past Rotherham,
until we suddenly came to a screeching halt in Swinton station. I
knew immediately what the problem was: we had a green signal for the
route straight ahead for Pontefract and York, whereas the driver was
expecting to turn right for Doncaster. Presumably the driver asked
for the route to be re-set, but (for whatever reason I don't know) it
wasn't: we set off in the general direction of York. I was now
wondering whether the Doncaster stop had ever really been
reinstated - perhaps the train crew had all misunderstood what was
meant to be happening...

An enquiry at the shop revealed that the train manager had retreated
to the rear of the train. I found him there and asked if there had
been a change of plan. His attitude had now changed and he was very
apologetic: yes, if I had left the train at Sheffield, he agreed I
would have been better off. He took a note of my seat number and
asked me to return there. A few minutes later he announced over the
PA that any passengers for Doncaster should make their way to the
rear of the train. I know there were several on board, but most
ignored or didn't hear this message - I don't know what became of
them. Three of us turned up in the rear coach (it gave me the
opportunity to sample first class for the remainder of the journey).
One was heading for Hull and said he could get a train from York;
that left two of us, the other being a young lady returning to
Lincoln University. At this point the train manager indicated that he
would give us vouchers authorising NXEC at York to provide onward
transport. This should have been one voucher from York to Retford
and one from York to Lincoln, but he seemed to be fixated on the fact
that his obligation was to get us to Doncaster. He recognised that
there would be a long wait for the next train, so he issued a single
voucher for two people, in the name of the young lady, valid from
York to Doncaster, and handed it to me as I had indicated that I knew
my way around York station and could find the NXEC staff. I don't
think he should have forced a potentially vulnerable young lady to be
placed at the mercy of me, a complete stranger; of course, I knew it
was going to be ok, but that's not really the point.

Be patient...it gets even worse...

It was now obvious to me that a taxi from York to Doncaster was not
really going to help: the 1930 NXEC train would get us there at 1956,
and a taxi was unlikely to beat that by more than a few minutes.
However, as there were two of us I thought it best to let NXEC do the
decision-making On the basis that we should beat the train, we were
duly and efficiently shown to a taxi and sent on our way.

The taxi driver opted for the (slow) A19 rather than the (fast)
A64/A1 and also got lost on the way in to Doncaster. The meter had
clocked up £53 as we finally (with the help of directions from me)
reached the station. We arrived on the platform just before eight o'
clock, just as the train from York was pulling in... There were no
trains about to leave for Retford or Lincoln, so another talk to NXEC
staff was necessary.

The 2033 East Midlands service to Lincoln was offered as the best
prospect for my travelling companion. We couldn't argue with that - a
taxi wouldn't have been any quicker. So that just left me. The last
train of the day to Retford, normally 2048 on Saturdays having come
from Leeds, was at 2058 on this occasion (coming from York.) Clearly
the NXEC staff at York hadn't expected me to have to wait at
Doncaster for that train, otherwise why send me by taxi? Why should I
have to wait another hour? The NXEC staff at Doncaster agreed and
contacted CrossCountry in Birmingham for authority to send me by taxi
to Retford. After several failed and/or transferred telephone calls,
the CrossCountry representative was eventually contacted but told
NXEC that such authorisations are no longer issued where the cost is
under £60, and the decision had to by taken by NXEC. The NXEC lady
was clearly unhappy with this reply, so having ended the telephone
call to CrossCountry she phoned an NXEC colleague who confirmed her
view that the CrossCountry assertion was incorrect. So yet another
call was made to CrossCountry, who this time refused the
authorisation. NXEC said they had no authority to do any more, so I
had no choice but to wait for the 2058 train, which got me to Retford
at 2111, one minute early but in reality 258 minutes late.

The first delay of two hours was clearly due to the vandalism and is,
perhaps, excusable, but the remainder is really down to ineptitude
and incompetence, exacerbated by fragmentation of the railway.

If this happened to you, what would you do next?
 
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Gizmogle

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Wow...
I'd send off complaint letters to CrossCountry and NXEC.
And then a couple of weeks later, I would fill my bath with the RTVs and bathe in them.

Just shows how unhelpful these TOCs can be.

Could he submit his story to a newspaper or something? I'm sure they'd be more than happy to flame the TOCs involved.
 

Metroland

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Well the root cause is the cable theft - I'd have the thieves put up against the wall and shot on public display on X factor. But that's me.

It's all very well saying they 'should' have told me what was going on, maybe they should. But we don't know how dynamic the situation was, so it's impossible to comment. There could be a number of reasons why the plan changed - perhaps more damage than expected, maybe lack of handsignalmen, maybe a train crew or stock resourcing problem, maybe the train was in a tunnel when the info was paged out, maybe the train crew was told wrong, maybe there was an emerging safety issue why trains couldn't have gone the orginal planned route. Problem solving 'real time' is much more difficult that working on a fixed problem from the beginning.

Either way I don't think it's much to do with the fragmentation of the railway, it has everything to do with cable theft and the selfishness in our society which leads people to do these things, which puts massive pressure on staff when things go wrong.

Perhaps mistakes were made, which are obviously regrettable. But you can't call someone incompetent until you have the full facts or at least an appreciation of the problem in hand, that's why on this occasion without ascertaining those facts I am not going to damn everyone involved - apart from the thieves.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Could he submit his story to a newspaper or something? I'm sure they'd be more than happy to flame the TOCs involved.

That doesn't help anyone apart from selling more newspapers. He should write in, explain the situation and see what they say.
 

DaveNewcastle

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Isn't this simply an example of a compounding problem, each element is relatively minor but the accumulated effect is drastic?
It was just 7 winters ago when delays of that duration were almost predictable (who remembers this exciting announcement: "Railtrack will respond to the criticism today by announcing that about one-third of the 550 speed restrictions will be lifted over the next two weeks. On some stretches of track, the speed limit will be raised from 20mph to 40mph, and on others from 40mph to 60mph."). I've experienced several hours-late journeys too, and just sit back and wait (and shiver!). But its a good question. . .

Yes, the theft of cable is serious and I wish there was more that could be done to safeguard cabling and to police the PW.
And yes, the fragmentation of ownership and management is a contributory factor which seems to be at its worst when communicating between TOCs.
And of course, the lack of on-going modernisation and maintenance over the decades leads to bottlenecks, loss of paths and knock-on consequences.

But isn't there something missing from the current structure which makes it easy for small problems to contribute to the escalation into massive delays? Isn't there a lack of overview of the network in real-time? How can a variety of TOCs operating over shared routes with a few remote NR signalling staff and TOC station staff calling each other on mobiles after the event possibly make informed plans and decisions to avert problems before the consequences mount up? They can't.
 

Coxster

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Well the root cause is the cable theft
.....and multiple track circuit failures a little earlier in the Ryther area causing delays between York and Doncaster, with all XC services being diverted away from Donny.
 

Gizmogle

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That doesn't help anyone apart from selling more newspapers. He should write in, explain the situation and see what they say.
No, but he might get a bit of money for it :p He deserves it after having to put up with that kind of delay.

Fair enough, cable theft isn't really their fault, but it shouldn't be allowed to happen full stop. If the railways let people in and steal this stuff, then they should be prepared to get it fixed quickly.
There must be a way to protect the cables and stop people getting to it?
 

djw1981

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No, but he might get a bit of money for it :p He deserves it after having to put up with that kind of delay./QUOTE]

You think the media think it will sell enough extra papers to pay for a story like that????????? A refund of the ticket in vouchers is all that can be expected, along with a letter of apology from XC. The NX staff seem to have done everything by the book. I'm sure XC will have had a nice wedge of compo from NR for the infrastructure 'failings' so it's only fair that the customers get some.
 

Metroland

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No, but he might get a bit of money for it :p /QUOTE]

I see Thatcher's Britain is alive and well! :)

Well there's a good project for someone. Design a system that prevents people stealing the cables.

I don't think it's only the railway though, in China people are even stealing drain covers and people are falling into drains in the night walking along. Scary huh?

Nice for the railway though. They have their cables stolen, staff abused by angry passengers, dragged through the newpapers, lost future fares (because of unhappy customers), have to issue vouchers, taxi fares and deal with complaints, waste a lot of time and money putting it all back again, and then abused by enthusiasts.

Well there's another post to make me popular, such a disability this is being able to see both sides of the story and being brave enough to tell people facts they don't want to hear..
 

Gizmogle

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I dunno. It was just an idea.

If he gets RTVs, then I imagine he will get quite an amount!
I remember Dan got about £40 from a FGW delay with an ALR.

They need to wrap cables in electrified barbed wire :p

This doesn't happen in all countries though does it? From what I've heard, some places in Europe have amazing services. Never delayed.
If they're never delayed, then people obviously aren't stealing equipment. How do they stop it?
 

Lewisham2221

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To be fair, even with such a massive delay, it's not possible to point the finger at anybody other than the vandals/thieves responsible for the initial delay. Fair enough, it seems there was massive lack of/poor communication, but that's almost inevitable in any large organisation or similar. The fragmented nature of the current railway probably had little effect on the communication - even if it was all one big company the number of different departments, managers, people and policies that would be in force would still prove to be a complete nightmare when it came to communication.

Going to the press would just be yet more unwanted/unneeded bad publicity for the railways.
 

Metroland

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No, copper theft is a problem all over the word for all utilities, as demand rises and outstrips supply. Metal theft has lead to church roofs getting stolen, car exhausts, copper pipe from the side of people’s houses, drain covers, safety fencing, phone cables, electricity cables, farm equipment and so on.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/6144464.stm

http://railwaysafrica.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=1180

http://abcnews.go.com/International/story?id=2439779

http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2007/12/19/2123408.htm

http://www.theregister.co.uk/2007/08/22/copper_theft_on_the_rise/

http://www.findinternettv.com/Video,item,775156413.aspx
 

Mintona

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Maybe next time he'll go to Peterborough and north...
A very unfortunate set of circumstances, partly down to the railway, and partly down to the criminals...I'm glad he got home that night!
 

yorkie

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About midway through, it ceases to be anything about cable theft specifically. From that point on, a lot of incompetence happens and it could have happened regardless of the original fault, for example the issue of XC not being interested in the passengers journey beyond Doncaster, the railways literally wasting money by sending people on pointless taxi journeys, and companies having different policies and arguing among themselves.
 

Metroland

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There may well have been incompetence on the day, but unless we have the full facts and the technical competence it's not our place to be judge, jury and executioner, that's all I'm saying. Running to the newspapers has a record of creating more red tape, and and atmosphere where no-one dare squeak without referring to their boss, which makes these things worse. The answer it to take up the complaint, in writing, with the TOC.

I rather smiled at the bit with the comment how the young lady was left with him. Lovely living in a country where everyone should be regarded a suspected rapist....
 

djw1981

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I think even I as a mid 20s guy would be a bit wary of being told to share a taxi with a total stranger (or two including the driver...).

Compensation normally works out as
For our customers whose journeys are delayed by CrossCountry
trains we offer:
50% of the cost of your single ticket or 50% of the cost of
either portion of your return ticket for delays of between
30 and 59 minutes; or
100% of the cost of your single ticket or 100% of the cost
of either portion of your return ticket for delays of 60 minutes
or more
If your journey is delayed by more than two hours and you
have a return ticket, you will be entitled to receive 100%
of the cost of the return ticket
Extract from http://www.crosscountrytrains.co.uk/PDF/Compensation/compensation.pdf
 

me123

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Just bad luck really how everything's piled up on him, although I can't believe they put him in a taxi when there was a train anyway.

I'd want compensation, definately from XC at least, in some form (even vouchers).
 

djw1981

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Vouchers is all they give normally, rounded up to the nearest £5 IIRC.
 

16CSVT2700

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I remember Dan got about £40 from a FGW delay with an ALR.
What for?
On my ALR during the 27th october-3rd november, on the thursday Myself and Ticketman went to catch the 1925 MML to Leeds only to find out they were on strike. No prior knowledge whatsoever. Did we fuss? A little bit, but then got the next Hull Trains service to Doncaster and changed for the following GNER to Leeds. Those 2 moves actually got us to Leeds earlier than what the MML would have done, however it did mean missing out on the service and route coverage from Sheffield to Leeds via Swinton and Doncaster.
 

Muttley

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About midway through, it ceases to be anything about cable theft specifically. From that point on, a lot of incompetence happens and it could have happened regardless of the original fault, for example the issue of XC not being interested in the passengers journey beyond Doncaster, the railways literally wasting money by sending people on pointless taxi journeys, and companies having different policies and arguing among themselves.

Agree with you there Yorkie.


What i`ll also add is that since the coming of the mobile phone i reckon the situation has got far worse. I`ve seen first hand where a driver is ringing his control, the signaller is ringing their control, the conducter is ringing passenger services, the unit man wants his tuppence throwing in, the crew on the train behind are doing exactly the same thing...
 

O L Leigh

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Half the problem with giving the punters any assurances about what will or will not happen in such a situation is that, whatever you say, events will eventually transpire to prove you a liar. Control expect one thing to happen, then the signaller sticks his oar in and the situation changes again. Where the trip crosses from one signalling area to another, you may find that the next signaller along the line has a completely different idea of what is going to happen. The upshot of all this is that the punters get confused and tempers fray.

In this particular instance, the only thing that I would criticise is the XC train manager's clarity of communication. If you're being diverted and the stopping pattern will change, you need to be completely clear about this. If the diversion itself changes, apologise and make the relevant announcements again.

Then again, we don't know precisely what information he was getting. It could be that he was getting conflicting and contradictory information from his control and from the signaller via the driver, in which case he was probably telling the punters everything he knew in good faith. Indeed, the need to make an emergency stop at Swinton because of an apparent wrong routeing, it seems that there was an element of not telling the traincrew anything at all. This happens more than you might imagine. It's amusing after the event, but it makes the traincrew look like a bunch of amateurs in the face of the punters. I'm not surprised that the train manager retreated to the back cab. He was probably fearing a full-scale mutiny.

What makes things particularly tricky is when punters want connecting services, because then you have no information to give, particularly when these are operated by other TOC's. Unless you have some way of finding out you can only make a guess. Even if you have a mobile, who do you call? In addition, my own experience is that most punters want definite advice about where to change. Presenting them with a number of options is usually more than you can cope with.

The confusion between the XC and NXEC staff about taxi vouchers sounds like staff working for two new TOC's trying to work out which of the old working arrangements between the former franchisees are still in effect. You can't really blame them if it's the first time they've been in this situation, but they'll know the score next time it happens.

one TN
 

Kneedown

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There must be a way to protect the cables and stop people getting to it?

Paint Sarin on the cables, or a solution containing the Ebola virus.

Might not them being pinched, but the scrotes would certainly not do it again! :D
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Alternatively, immerse the cables in long, water filled troughs, containing Pihrana fish. That'd keep the rat population down too!

Am i warped? :grin:
 

Gizmogle

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What for?
On my ALR during the 27th october-3rd november, on the thursday Myself and Ticketman went to catch the 1925 MML to Leeds only to find out they were on strike. No prior knowledge whatsoever. Did we fuss? A little bit, but then got the next Hull Trains service to Doncaster and changed for the following GNER to Leeds. Those 2 moves actually got us to Leeds earlier than what the MML would have done, however it did mean missing out on the service and route coverage from Sheffield to Leeds via Swinton and Doncaster.

Cancelled train and a 30 minute delay on another train, causing us to miss over two hours of planned coverage. As we were around Devon and Cornwall, there wasn't much else we could go and do. They gave out £60 for that.

And as for Northern...the Buxton train was 15 minutes late, meaning we miss our connection to the Settle & Carlisle, (obviously not the most frequent service) so we had over two hours of time to waste. Can't remember what they gave us for that. Around £10-£40.
 

Gizmogle

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I can't find Northern's response letter :p I know they didn't send at much as FGW. It may have been around £20. I forget.
 

Mojo

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Paint Sarin on the cables, or a solution containing the Ebola virus.

Might not them being pinched, but the scrotes would certainly not do it again! :D
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Alternatively, immerse the cables in long, water filled troughs, containing Pihrana fish. That'd keep the rat population down too!

Am i warped? :grin:

Doesn't sound too good for the PWay staff...

Incidentally, I should imagine the only way to reduce the thefts would be to sign non-copper fibre optic cables saying something to the effect that they have no scrap value. I read on the news a few years ago about a council which has had to replace thousands of road signs with ones made from an alternative metal, with signs on the back warning they have no scrap value.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/uk/article379683.ece
 
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