Information for GTR Southern passengers during strike (no DOO discussion)

[tsr]

Was a total stand for trains out of London Bridge and Victoria. We were next out of LBG when it hit and left 90 minutes late, which is probably a typical delay for most trains.

I imagine that as the evening went on it will get worse as crew will be displaced. No doubt many staff will be doing overtime as they are so delayed

Guess any of the TOCs that operate ithe vast majority of their services in a heavily urbanised environment are going to fall prey to these type of incidents from time to time

Yes, most stuff between Victoria / London Bridge and West / South / East Croydon was very badly affected, with 90+mins not uncommon. This incident was not "just" a random graffiti artist or unfortunate suicidal person in a fixed position, but rather somebody who was trying to run all over the track and away from the police, who was chased from Norwood Jn to Windmill Bridge Jn (ish), where they disappeared, with trains running at caution for a time afterwards. That much I can verify - there are also some reports I heard from staff on nearby trains that the culprit was attempting to attack and injure police too, which meant they were not able to easily approach them.

The service recovery looked chaotic but when the service was thinned out, Victoria routes actually ended up gradually performing better than I'd expected by late evening (though my benchmarks weren't exactly high), with the main problem then being a blockage of platforms by stranded stock at London Bridge.

 

[Deepgreen]

Does anyone know why the 0831 Redhill to Victoria (ex-Horsham) did not stop at Redhill this morning, despite only being one minute late and being routed as normal on the Redhill route? It called at Earlswood, Merstham, etc.

 

[tsr]

Does anyone know why the 0831 Redhill to Victoria (ex-Horsham) did not stop at Redhill this morning, despite only being one minute late and being routed as normal on the Redhill route? It called at Earlswood, Merstham, etc.

Are you referring to RTT or did you actually see this happen? The reason I ask is that it shows as "Pass" on RTT, but that is often inaccurate when short dwell times are involved, or if data somehow goes missing for either the arrival or departure times. Unfortunately I was not present to see what happened, and have not read anything which indicates anything out of the ordinary.

 

[louis97]

Are you referring to RTT or did you actually see this happen? The reason I ask is that it shows as "Pass" on RTT, but that is often inaccurate when short dwell times are involved, or if data somehow goes missing for either the arrival or departure times. Unfortunately I was not present to see what happened, and have not read anything which indicates anything out of the ordinary.

Poor offsets/berth steps assigned to the offsets it looks like. NR seem to have a habit of having poor understanding of how the berth stepping works. Redhill 2 up direction is fairly common for doing this, however only if you arrive into the platform on a red signal.

 

[tsr]

Poor offsets/berth steps assigned to the offsets it looks like. NR seem to have a habit of having poor understanding of how the berth stepping works. Redhill 2 up direction is fairly common for doing this, however only if you arrive into the platform on a red signal.

That could make sense in this scenario - thanks for the info. Not sure exactly what reason it would have been brought up to a red, but the aspect you get on approaching that Platform 2 Up Starter is very variable and doesn't always depend on trains directly in conflict. There's no permissive working on that platform in this scenario, either.

I'm pretty sure the train did call, anyway, as I would probably have heard about a stopping service sailing through Platform 2 without calling!

 

[Deepgreen]

That could make sense in this scenario - thanks for the info. Not sure exactly what reason it would have been brought up to a red, but the aspect you get on approaching that Platform 2 Up Starter is very variable and doesn't always depend on trains directly in conflict. There's no permissive working on that platform in this scenario, either.

I'm pretty sure the train did call, anyway, as I would probably have heard about a stopping service sailing through Platform 2 without calling!

I had indeed only seen this on RTT by chance when checking something else. The 0831 normally enters platform 2 on a green aspect, but things were a little disrupted this morning. However nothing shows as having preceded the 0831 from platform 2 for a long time, so it doesn't look as if it would have been checked or held. If it's just another RTT anomaly then 'case closed'. Thanks.

 

[infobleep]

At Gatwick Airport this evening there are announcements for London Victoria and Oyster but no announcements for any stations heading south. Trains heading south are delayed, severely delayed or terminating short of their destination.

Perhaps GTR feel no one wants to head south of Gatwick at 7pm and beyond!

Before I forget. The screen by the ticket machines are displaying the subsequent departures but the times are for trains after 18.00. The one beyond the main gates is also doing the same. The one beside the escalator to play from 3 is working but keep going to a blank screen from time to time. It does display pages 2 and 3 but far less frequently than page 2 of the blank page it seems.

The one by the main ticket window seemed to be working correctly at least. The one by platform 7 though was doing 18.00.

I've been here almost 20 minutes and ice heard all the announcements and nothing about anything other than Victoria!

Finally announcement for the delayed Gatwick Express to Brighton. It was on the platform. I don't know if it gets announced above. The train terminating short at Three Bridges wasn't.

The gap between trains heading anywhere beyond Three Bridges on the Brighton mainline this evening was 26 minutes! Whilst not a record, you'd think they might acknowledge it.

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[Carlisle]

At Gatwick Airport this evening there are announcements for London Victoria and Oyster but no announcements for any stations heading south. Trains heading south are delayed, severely delayed or terminating short of their destination.

Perhaps GTR feel no one wants to head south of Gatwick at 7pm and beyond!

Before I forget. The screen by the ticket machines are displaying the subsequent departures but the times are for trains after 18.00. The one beyond the main gates is also doing the same. The one beside the escalator to play from 3 is working but keep going to a blank screen from time to time. It does display pages 2 and 3 but far less frequently than page 2 of the blank page it seems.

The one by the main ticket window seemed to be working correctly at least. The one by platform 7 though was doing 18.00.

I've been here almost 20 minutes and ice heard all the announcements and nothing about anything other than Victoria!

Finally announcement for the delayed Gatwick Express to Brighton. It was on the platform. I don't know if it gets announced above. The train terminating short at Three Bridges wasn't.

The gap between trains heading anywhere beyond Three Bridges on the Brighton mainline this evening was 26 minutes! Whilst not a record, you'd think they might acknowledge it.

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What was the cause of all the chaos tonight ?

 

[Muzz]

The 18:34 Victoria to Horsham train left 8 minutes late from platform 17. Not a single announcement until the doors were closed and the train leaving. We then sat between Victoria and Clapham (not sure we even crossed the Thames), finally a call for the OBS to contact the driver. After a pause the driver apologised for the delay, saying there was only one more train ahead of us, before another announcement saying due to points failure ahead he’d be heading back to Victoria.

When we left Victoria from platform 19 towards Three Bridges for the second time the OBS stood at the London end of carriage 7, we might have had the same departing announcement, but nothing en route apologising about delays for customers join gin at Clapham or East Croydon, or about being in the correct part of the train when it split at Horsham etc.

The guard from Three Bridges gave a manually announcement at every station, he aplogised for the late running of the train, he explained which part of the train to be in for Littlehaven, he even apologised when he found out the train wasn’t splitting at Horsham.

Wasn’t the OBS role supposed to be all about improving customer service?

 

[neilm]

At Gatwick Airport this evening there are announcements for London Victoria and Oyster but no announcements for any stations heading south. Trains heading south are delayed, severely delayed or terminating short of their destination.

Perhaps GTR feel no one wants to head south of Gatwick at 7pm and beyond!

Before I forget. The screen by the ticket machines are displaying the subsequent departures but the times are for trains after 18.00. The one beyond the main gates is also doing the same. The one beside the escalator to play from 3 is working but keep going to a blank screen from time to time. It does display pages 2 and 3 but far less frequently than page 2 of the blank page it seems.

The one by the main ticket window seemed to be working correctly at least. The one by platform 7 though was doing 18.00.

I've been here almost 20 minutes and ice heard all the announcements and nothing about anything other than Victoria!

Finally announcement for the delayed Gatwick Express to Brighton. It was on the platform. I don't know if it gets announced above. The train terminating short at Three Bridges wasn't.

The gap between trains heading anywhere beyond Three Bridges on the Brighton mainline this evening was 26 minutes! Whilst not a record, you'd think they might acknowledge it.

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You are not the only one to experience this, I was at Gatwick two weeks ago when they had the major incident at wivesfield. When I was at Gatwick there was no information about south of Gatwick and only announcements about going to Victoria, waited 30 minutes for information about going south which was useless anyway.

 

[infobleep]

The conspiracy theorist in me would say that they are in collusion with the Gatwick Airport owners to only promote the Gatwick Express services they so love and no others.

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[Deepgreen]

Horrendous again this morning on the Redhill route, owing to a failed train at Littlehaven. Multiple cancellations and late running and the train I ended up catching, despite being surprisingly relatively uncrowded, had the front first class full of Gatwick Airport passengers with their suitcases literally jammed in the aisle between the seats, making it necessary literally to climb over the cases to get to the last remaining seat that wasn't occupied by standard class ticket holders.

The (English, judging by their loud conversation) luggage owners were not in the slightest bit concerned to move it - I have never seen such appallingly selfish and ignorant dumping of luggage, which should have been in the vestibule, along with its standard class ticket-holding owners! Needless to say, the guard was entirely absent and silent for the journey.

 

[Barn]

Horrendous again this morning on the Redhill route, owing to a failed train at Littlehaven. Multiple cancellations and late running and the train I ended up catching, despite being surprisingly relatively uncrowded, had the front first class full of Gatwick Airport passengers with their suitcases literally jammed in the aisle between the seats, making it necessary literally to climb over the cases to get to the last remaining seat that wasn't occupied by standard class ticket holders.

The (English, judging by their loud conversation) luggage owners were not in the slightest bit concerned to move it - I have never seen such appallingly selfish and ignorant dumping of luggage, which should have been in the vestibule, along with its standard class ticket-holding owners! Needless to say, the guard was entirely absent and silent for the journey.

As I am soon to move to your neck of the woods, could I ask whether and how frequently you decide to head the other way and travel in via Dorking? Is the journey time so long that way that it's usually worthwhile going via Redhill despite the delays and uncertainty?

 

[Deepgreen]

As I am soon to move to your neck of the woods, could I ask whether and how frequently you decide to head the other way and travel in via Dorking? Is the journey time so long that way that it's usually worthwhile going via Redhill despite the delays and uncertainty?

Living at Betchworth, I go to Dorking about 20% of the time, I suppose. The reason I don't do it more often is that the 0737 from Betchworth arrives at Dorking Deepdene at 0741 and there is an 0745 from Dorking to Victoria. This connection (not an official one) is extremely tight and often fails, especially since Southern re-timed the previous 0746 departure to the current 0745! Of course there are SWT trains too, but they are slow and involve changing at Clapham Junction for Victoria.
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Having just looked at the Southern web site, their (illiterate) note about this morning's service tells me that there were three separate train failures on the Horsham route today! These were the 0830 and 0852 from London Bridge - both apparently withdrawn en route - and the London-bound train that failed at Littlehaven. Is there something underlying this spate?

 

[Hophead]

Living at Betchworth, I go to Dorking about 20% of the time, I suppose. The reason I don't do it more often is that the 0737 from Betchworth arrives at Dorking Deepdene at 0741 and there is an 0745 from Dorking to Victoria. This connection (not an official one) is extremely tight and often fails, especially since Southern re-timed the previous 0746 departure to the current 0745! Of course there are SWT trains too, but they are slow and involve changing at Clapham Junction for Victoria.

Point taken about the change, but just to note that the Waterloo service is a little quicker to Clapham Junction in the peak (as the Victoria trains make calls between Sutton and CLJ, whereas some of the SWT trains are semi-fast Epsom - Raynes Park).

 

[Barn]

Anybody who uses Redhill services might like to come to the meeting held by the local rail users' group this Wednesday. GTR will be present to discuss the 2018 plans and the current service.

https://www.rrdrua.org.uk/2016/11/14/2018-timetable-consultation-meeting/

 

[Deepgreen]

Anybody who uses Redhill services might like to come to the meeting held by the local rail users' group this Wednesday. GTR will be present to discuss the 2018 plans and the current service.

https://www.rrdrua.org.uk/2016/11/14/2018-timetable-consultation-meeting/

Nice thought, and thanks, but GTR has a history of sending token reps. to these meetings and doing absolutely nothing to act on any suggestions, etc., regarding the service. The current 'consultation' is nothing of the sort, but simply HMG (as GTR's direct masters) wanting to be seen to be listening to the people, when all the important decisions have already been made.
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The 0831 Redhill to Victoria (ex-Horsham) was cancelled again this morning, this time owing (according to RTT) to "a problem with the brakes". There has been an unusually large number of train failures on the Horsham route of late - is there something afoot of which I am unaware?

 

[Bishopstone]

Not a good day on Coastway, with the busiest 12-car ex-Eastbourne train (06.21) cancelled due to staff shortage, and multiple cancellations of the Brighton-Ore stoppers and Marshlink all morning, for the same reason.

My evening train home, lately, has been the 17.19 Gatwick-Lewes. However, I might need to change my routine, as this service is diabolical. Yesterday we were twenty minutes late due to 'the train not stopping in the correct position at a station' (Three Bridges, I think), whilst today we were twenty-five minutes late into Lewes, without explanation or apology, having lost time all the way down.

Also, I thought the point of the nascent OBS role was to provide a visible presence throughout the train? Instead, Guards/OBS on several recent journeys have announced over the PA: 'I'm in coach six, if you need any assistance' in the style of SWT non-commercial Guards. So the ticketless (etc) in coach one can rest easy, then... It's like calling the local burglar to let him know you're out for the night.

 

[Surreytraveller]

Also, I thought the point of the nascent OBS role was to provide a visible presence throughout the train?

If that's what you think, you've missed the point of all the disruption the last few months! The point of the OBS is to get rid of the guards and save money.

 

[John R]

Er, the last two posts look suspiciously as though they are straying into the topic specifically excluded by the title, and for which there is another thread. Could we keep the discussion on what services are running on strike days, maybe?

 

[Deepgreen]

For the third morning running, there was a train failure on the Redhill route today. The 0840 ex-Tonbridge and Reigate (which I boarded at Redhill) to London Bridge failed with an issue with the doors on coach 7.

The usual lack of information from anyone at Redhill ensued, with passengers having to resort to going to the drivers' cab for information, only to be told curtly that he had no idea what was going on! After more than ten minutes of repeatedly releasing and locking the doors the guard/OBS/conductor (it's impossible to know which role any of them are in these days) finally deigned to tell us what the problem was, and advised us to catch the parallel 0853 to Victoria. This left about five minutes late, with first class declassified. The declassification was moot anyway as the usual crowd had filled it before the announcement, either not knowing or not caring where they sat.

This run of train failures on the route has been remarkable and very disruptive. It begins to smell somewhat of maintenance failings.
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If that's what you think, you've missed the point of all the disruption the last few months! The point of the OBS is to get rid of the guards and save money.

That's an understandable view to hold (and may be correct), but it's not what the public is being told by GTR, and not what RMT purports to be in dispute about, which is the safety aspect. GTR is spinning the line that OBSs should be more visible not less, and the continued invisibility of the staff member (whatever title they hold - nobody knows on specific trains anyway) does them no favours.

 

[Barn]

The usual lack of information from anyone at Redhill ensued, with passengers having to resort to going to the drivers' cab for information

It sounds like Redhill needs a real shake up in its local station management. The complexity of the train operations there surely justifies a decent resident manager.

 

[Deepgreen]

It sounds like Redhill needs a real shake up in its local station management. The complexity of the train operations there surely justifies a decent resident manager.

I've been saying so for years, but it seems destined to continue with its long-standing haphazard regime. I don't know if other comparable stations on GTR and further afield have similar appalling response times to faults, or if the faults that are obvious to passengers are even reported by staff, given how incredibly long it takes to fix them!

 

[Minstral25]

Nice thought, and thanks, but GTR has a history of sending token reps. to these meetings and doing absolutely nothing to act on any suggestions, etc., regarding the service. The current 'consultation' is nothing of the sort, but simply HMG (as GTR's direct masters) wanting to be seen to be listening to the people, when all the important decisions have already been made.
?

I heard that the Strategy Director in charge of the 2018 timetable is speaking and that the Southern Passenger Service Director will be attending as well.

Very sure they wouldn't consider themselves token rep's! Very sure it is genuinely a consultation as well. I'm going to attend so I can call them to account.

 

[Deepgreen]

I heard that the Strategy Director in charge of the 2018 timetable is speaking and that the Southern Passenger Service Director will be attending as well.

Very sure they wouldn't consider themselves token rep's! Very sure it is genuinely a consultation as well. I'm going to attend so I can call them to account.

I'm sure they wouldn't, the latter presumably still being Alex Foulds, with whom I used to work in a former very different role. I wish you the best of luck calling them to account - unless their HMG masters also attend (and probably even if they do), it will be futile, sadly. These local meetings have been happening for years or decades, and the service standard seems only to have regressed, rather than progressed. Any timetable changes will only work if the basic operational failings that are rife on the network are tackled, and I see no sign of that happening.

 

[infobleep]

Not a good day on Coastway, with the busiest 12-car ex-Eastbourne train (06.21) cancelled due to staff shortage, and multiple cancellations of the Brighton-Ore stoppers and Marshlink all morning, for the same reason.

My evening train home, lately, has been the 17.19 Gatwick-Lewes. However, I might need to change my routine, as this service is diabolical. Yesterday we were twenty minutes late due to 'the train not stopping in the correct position at a station' (Three Bridges, I think), whilst today we were twenty-five minutes late into Lewes, without explanation or apology, having lost time all the way down.

Also, I thought the point of the nascent OBS role was to provide a visible presence throughout the train? Instead, Guards/OBS on several recent journeys have announced over the PA: 'I'm in coach six, if you need any assistance' in the style of SWT non-commercial Guards. So the ticketless (etc) in coach one can rest easy, then... It's like calling the local burglar to let him know you're out for the night.

If that's what you think, you've missed the point of all the disruption the last few months! The point of the OBS is to get rid of the guards and save money.

I think the point being made is that they say it will provide better presence. They being Govia.

As for the train being 25 minutes late with no reason, I call those delays, delay creep.

There are where delays slowly occur over the course of a journey and by the end become more significant but because it happened overtime, no one seems that concerned from a communication front.

Where it to happen in one go, your more likely to get a reason being given. That's just how I see it from my experiences.

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It sounds like Redhill needs a real shake up in its local station management. The complexity of the train operations there surely justifies a decent resident manager.

They GTR afford to employ such a manager I wonder?

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[Deepgreen]

I think the point being made is that they say it will provide better presence. They being Govia.

As for the train being 25 minutes late with no reason, I call those delays, delay creep.

There are where delays slowly occur over the course of a journey and by the end become more significant but because it happened overtime, no one seems that concerned from a communication front.

Where it to happen in one go, your more likely to get a reason being given. That's just how I see it from my experiences.

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They GTR afford to employ such a manager I wonder?

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Afford - yes; choose to spend money on - seemingly not.
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Not a good day on Coastway, with the busiest 12-car ex-Eastbourne train (06.21) cancelled due to staff shortage, and multiple cancellations of the Brighton-Ore stoppers and Marshlink all morning, for the same reason.

My evening train home, lately, has been the 17.19 Gatwick-Lewes. However, I might need to change my routine, as this service is diabolical. Yesterday we were twenty minutes late due to 'the train not stopping in the correct position at a station' (Three Bridges, I think), whilst today we were twenty-five minutes late into Lewes, without explanation or apology, having lost time all the way down.

Also, I thought the point of the nascent OBS role was to provide a visible presence throughout the train? Instead, Guards/OBS on several recent journeys have announced over the PA: 'I'm in coach six, if you need any assistance' in the style of SWT non-commercial Guards. So the ticketless (etc) in coach one can rest easy, then... It's like calling the local burglar to let him know you're out for the night.

The 1719 yesterday left Victoria 9L and, as you say, continued to lose a minute here and there, leaving Gatwick 16L and Lewes 26L. Very poor to have no explanation or apology - there is a tendency to make such announcements only when arriving at the end of the working, which is no good for anyone not travelling all the way.

This is the 1647 from Victoria, which is timed to leave two minutes before my 1649 to Three Bridges and Reigate. Both are notorious for leaving late, which is then a recipe for accumulating delays, especially as the despatch process at East Croydon is so poor. It is usual for my train in platform 2 there to await the departure of the Hastings train from platform 3. By the time we have been given the RA, the starter has usually cycled through the aspects from yellow to green!

The average arrival at Lewes for this train over the last four weeks has been 15 minutes late!

 

[infobleep]

Another interesting delay. I wasn't on this service myself.

They say the train was delayed due to shortage of train crew. Does anyone know at which point it was waiting the train crew because according to Real Train Times, it seems to have lost 11 minutes of its delay at East Croydon, yet it was already delayed by then. If it was waiting a member of train crew at East Croydon, did that block up a platform and causes minutes of delays to tens of other services?

It was already late arrive into East Croydon though so surely the same train didn't get delayed by train crew twice?

http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/W71851/2016/11/16/advanced

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There seems to be a lot of train delays tonight for which no reason is given online.

I attempted to find the live train running information but Southern still don't think that passengers on the go want this information when using any device that they don't class as being a laptop or PC or similar.

Even a Surface Pro or iPad Pro with screen sizes larger than some small laptops wouldn't do.

Anyway I went to the full desktop site and found what they were showing. It wasn't as much as that being delayed. I'm not solely talking about 2 minute delays here but 10 minutes + delays. Is a 13 minute delays large enough to warrant a reason being given? I've seen delays much shorter than this given reasons in the past. Some of this might be due to the fact they are expecting the delay to be longer but it just so happens it isn't in the end.

http://www.southernrailway.com/your-journey/plan-your-journey/live-running-information/

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[Ringpull]

I heard that the Strategy Director in charge of the 2018 timetable is speaking and that the Southern Passenger Service Director will be attending as well.

Very sure they wouldn't consider themselves token rep's! Very sure it is genuinely a consultation as well. I'm going to attend so I can call them to account.

Redhill commuter here. I'll be attending also. Glad you'll be there to call them to account, and I hope others do too.

 

[Surreytraveller]

Er, the last two posts look suspiciously as though they are straying into the topic specifically excluded by the title, and for which there is another thread. Could we keep the discussion on what services are running on strike days, maybe?

Most of the posts in this thread aren't about the strike service. They are mainly about the daily shambles of a service.