Information for GTR Southern passengers during strike (no DOO discussion)

[Deepgreen]

If it's not an official connection then they can claim they don't need to do anything and if it's critical you should get up earlier. I imagine even if they meant leaving the night before, that would be their statement. I imagine Redhill is locked at night of course.

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Well, thanks for that.

It's not critical to me, but I imagine that if you regularly found yourself alighting from an incoming (hourly) train only to see a train that it would very useful to be able to catch on the other side of the same platform being despatched at that precise second by staff who very obviously are purposely not looking at anything else going on around them (and when the next train is likely to be a substantial time later), you might find it vexing after a few occasions, especially if you knew that the same train would almost certainly be held or checked by several signals for several minutes (not seconds) a little further along on its journey, thus rendering the few saved seconds at Redhill pointless!

No, of course they don't NEED to do anything; my point is that it would be very easy to do the right thing and provide something resembling a coordinated and passenger-orientated service, simply by being aware of basic passenger requirements which would also not have any detrimental effect on other trains if my suggested guidelines were to be followed. In other words, just look around and make intelligent decisions about train interaction instead of blindly focussing on a narrow part of the picture. Just because a train isn't formally advertised as a connection doesn't mean it shouldn't be available as such if the specific timings on some occasions make it possible.

I know that, if I was a platform staff member I would make damn' sure that people alighting from an incoming train a few feet away would get the chance to board 'my' train by waiting a few seconds before raising my bat!
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[Bishopstone]

Started a new assignment at Gatwick Airport today: about 30 miles from home.

My outbound rail trip this morning took 1hr 55m, and the return this evening took 2hr 5m.

The new office has a car park, which I could use for free if I ingratiated myself sufficiently with the Office Manager who issues passes. There is a car otherwise sitting in my driveway unused, Monday-Friday. The A27 and A23 aren't huge fun at either end of the day, but hey....

Unless your destination is the centre of London, only the eccentric or inadequate would commute to work by train in GTR-land, and indeed that now seems to be the prevailing opinion in business circles. I am looked at with a mix of bemusement and pity, and I can see why.

Though I should say, tonight's fiasco was the responsibility of Network Rail. They work on the stretch of track between Brighton and Three Bridges almost every Sunday - this has been the position for several years - but nevertheless, infrastructure meltdowns occur on this same stretch on a weekly basis, quite reliably. It's about time they were held to account.

GTR just add to the misery with an absence of accurate information when it's most needed, and contingency plans activated - seemingly - without a sense of urgency.

 

[Surreytraveller]

GTR just add to the misery with an absence of accurate information when it's most needed, and contingency plans activated - seemingly - without a sense of urgency.

Trouble is, GTR's stock and crew workings mean that disruption in one area is automatically forwarded to, what would appear to a normal person, an unrelated area.

 

[Deepgreen]

Last evening saw yet another farce at Redhill. An up six car train from Tonbridge stopped short in platform 2 and the following Reigate portion was unable to enter the platform fully to couple. I saw what was happening as soon as the first train stopped short and the crew de-camped. However, it took the unobservant platform staff quite a while to spot the problem, and they then resorted to running down the platform to tell the ex-Reigate portion's driver to stop. I really don't see why this was thought to be necessary; he was expecting to see the front portion ahead of him anyway, but stopping short (it ended up with about three car lengths between the two portions) just fouled the junction for no reason, locking everything up. I overheard the platform staff saying that the Southeastern drivers on the Tonbridge portion didn't know their rosters (heavily paraphrased!). A long delay ensued while a driver was found to move the front portion forward to the correct stopping mark, and then more delays while they coaxed the Reigate portion's driver to move his forward. At least three trains were delayed (A 'Sandite' working and two GWRs) by the platform staff needlessly panicking the Reigate driver to stop so far short when he could simply have drawn up to the front portion as normal. All this was overlain by the infuriating public address which cuts off every third word or so, rendering most messages unintelligible. It has been like this for many, many months - does anyone report these things? Various kit fails at Redhill regularly and it takes an age to be repaired. No-one seems to manage the station; it just staggers from day to day. A shambles.

A troubling element of this revolves around the use of other TOCs' crews - the Southern staff were pretty clear that the Southeastern crews were not properly briefed. I also found the needless panic by the platform staff very unhelpful, and it certainly caused much more delay than was necessary.

 

[zoneking]

I do not advocate holding the 0831 for every late GWR arrival (nice though that would be, it isn't practical). As I have said, too, no matter what time the 0831 leaves Redhill it is held or checked at either/both Stoats Nest Junction and outside East Croydon for several minutes on well over 95% of the times I have caught it, so the extra few seconds at Redhill would not make a jot of difference.

I agree with you. If any other business treated their customers with such contempt they would soon be out of business. The fault partly lies with the timetablers.

 

[Deepgreen]

I agree with you. If any other business treated their customers with such contempt they would soon be out of business. The fault partly lies with the timetablers.

Timetabling these days does not take account of interchanging passengers' convenience, it is purely aimed at avoiding conflicting moves between, and within, TOCs. The concept of an integrated network has gone, if it was ever really there at all.

The 0831 was re-timed a couple of years ago to leave one minute later, but it could easily leave a further two or three minutes later, say at 0833, which would comfortably be swallowed up by reducing signal stops and checks between Redhill and East Croydon, notably at Stoats Nest junction, waiting for clearance to cross to the up fast. In any case, it is timetabled also to wait outside Selhurst for an up East Grinstead train to cross, slow to fast, ahead of it, and always arrives several minutes late at Victoria, and very frequently ten late. The following ex-Tonbridge portion could be re-timed by one minute entering Redhill by this re-timing, given that it is already allowed seven minutes to join the ex-Reigate portion!

Also, the 0831 is rostered for a five car 377, but should be an eight car at least. It is galling to see so many four car 'main line' 377s running 'Metro' workings and this single 'Metro' five car unit running to Horsham. It surely must be possible to swap them around to give the 'main line' and 'Metro' workings consistency of stock. However, this would require a modicum of planning and passenger awareness on Southern's part, so it won't happen.

 

[Surreytraveller]

I agree with you. If any other business treated their customers with such contempt they would soon be out of business. The fault partly lies with the timetablers.

But that is the whole point of this franchise - the passengers are not GTR's customers. The Government is. GTR is therefore doing what their customer is telling them to do - screwing up the service. What the passengers want is nothing to do with GTR.

 

[Phil.]

Last evening saw yet another farce at Redhill. An up six car train from Tonbridge stopped short in platform 2 and the following Reigate portion was unable to enter the platform fully to couple. I saw what was happening as soon as the first train stopped short and the crew de-camped. However, it took the unobservant platform staff quite a while to spot the problem, and they then resorted to running down the platform to tell the ex-Reigate portion's driver to stop. I really don't see why this was thought to be necessary; he was expecting to see the front portion ahead of him anyway, but stopping short (it ended up with about three car lengths between the two portions) just fouled the junction for no reason, locking everything up. I overheard the platform staff saying that the Southeastern drivers on the Tonbridge portion didn't know their rosters (heavily paraphrased!). A long delay ensued while a driver was found to move the front portion forward to the correct stopping mark, and then more delays while they coaxed the Reigate portion's driver to move his forward. At least three trains were delayed (A 'Sandite' working and two GWRs) by the platform staff needlessly panicking the Reigate driver to stop so far short when he could simply have drawn up to the front portion as normal. All this was overlain by the infuriating public address which cuts off every third word or so, rendering most messages unintelligible. It has been like this for many, many months - does anyone report these things? Various kit fails at Redhill regularly and it takes an age to be repaired. No-one seems to manage the station; it just staggers from day to day. A shambles.

A troubling element of this revolves around the use of other TOCs' crews - the Southern staff were pretty clear that the Southeastern crews were not properly briefed. I also found the needless panic by the platform staff very unhelpful, and it certainly caused much more delay than was necessary.

The station staff go into panic mode because they haven't been trained for the situation. All staff nowadays are so micro-managed - very often by five minute managers - that they lose what common sense that they might have had (it's not in the rule book) and simply cannot cope with something even just slightly out of the ordinary. Your description of the panicking platform staff's reaction to the Reigate train being a prime example. It'll never improve at Redhill and this extra platform with it's crazy layout will only exacerbate the problems that occur now.

 

[GodAtum]

Unless your destination is the centre of London, only the eccentric or inadequate would commute to work by train in GTR-land, and indeed that now seems to be the prevailing opinion in business circles. I am looked at with a mix of bemusement and pity, and I can see why.

Until recently I was surprised people work outside London. maybe GTR still hold the same view.

 

[Deepgreen]

The station staff go into panic mode because they haven't been trained for the situation. All staff nowadays are so micro-managed - very often by five minute managers - that they lose what common sense that they might have had (it's not in the rule book) and simply cannot cope with something even just slightly out of the ordinary. Your description of the panicking platform staff's reaction to the Reigate train being a prime example. It'll never improve at Redhill and this extra platform with it's crazy layout will only exacerbate the problems that occur now.

There's a lot of truth in this, but, unfortunately, trains stopping at the wrong marks are not at all uncommon at Redhill! The overall impression at Redhill is that the station simply is not managed - I can't remember ever seeing anyone who would fit the description of a station manager there, and the staff certainly seem to be left to their own devices.

The example of the broken PIS screen on platform 2 was a prime one - the fault persisted for months on end, and responses from Southern to complaints ranged from irrelevant to downright lies. At no point during the six months or so was any information or apology about the fault displayed by the station's 'management'. The present example is the atrocious public address system, which cuts out during 'live' messages and is near-useless. This has also been the case for many months, with seemingly no interest by the staff or 'management'.

 

[infobleep]

Well, thanks for that.

It's not critical to me, but I imagine that if you regularly found yourself alighting from an incoming (hourly) train only to see a train that it would very useful to be able to catch on the other side of the same platform being despatched at that precise second by staff who very obviously are purposely not looking at anything else going on around them (and when the next train is likely to be a substantial time later), you might find it vexing after a few occasions, especially if you knew that the same train would almost certainly be held or checked by several signals for several minutes (not seconds) a little further along on its journey, thus rendering the few saved seconds at Redhill pointless!

No, of course they don't NEED to do anything; my point is that it would be very easy to do the right thing and provide something resembling a coordinated and passenger-orientated service, simply by being aware of basic passenger requirements which would also not have any detrimental effect on other trains if my suggested guidelines were to be followed. In other words, just look around and make intelligent decisions about train interaction instead of blindly focussing on a narrow part of the picture. Just because a train isn't formally advertised as a connection doesn't mean it shouldn't be available as such if the specific timings on some occasions make it possible.

I know that, if I was a platform staff member I would make damn' sure that people alighting from an incoming train a few feet away would get the chance to board 'my' train by waiting a few seconds before raising my bat!
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Well if GTR cared about doing the right thing, this thread wouldn't exist.

I have been known to miss official connections due to delays. That is annoying.

If only it were possible to retire the Redhill stopper so it could arrive in earlier or even better, retime the Redhill to London departure. Might only need to be 1 minute or 2, to make it a valid connection.

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--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

There's a lot of truth in this, but, unfortunately, trains stopping at the wrong marks are not at all uncommon at Redhill! The overall impression at Redhill is that the station simply is not managed - I can't remember ever seeing anyone who would fit the description of a station manager there, and the staff certainly seem to be left to their own devices.

The example of the broken PIS screen on platform 2 was a prime one - the fault persisted for months on end, and responses from Southern to complaints ranged from irrelevant to downright lies. At no point during the six months or so was any information or apology about the fault displayed by the station's 'management'. The present example is the atrocious public address system, which cuts out during 'live' messages and is near-useless. This has also been the case for many months, with seemingly no interest by the staff or 'management'.

Has the poster about the strike from tomorrow until Saturday been replaced yet with one containing the new dates? It hadn't last week. To be fair it wasn't the only Southern Station still stating the strike was starting tomorrow.

Anorher station had the new dates so a ascend poster is in existence.

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[Deepgreen]

Well if GTR cared about doing the right thing, this thread wouldn't exist.

I have been known to miss official connections due to delays. That is annoying.

If only it were possible to retire the Redhill stopper so it could arrive in earlier or even better, retime the Redhill to London departure. Might only need to be 1 minute or 2, to make it a valid connection.

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--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Has the poster about the strike from tomorrow until Saturday been replaced yet with one containing the new dates? It hadn't last week. To be fair it wasn't the only Southern Station still stating the strike was starting tomorrow.

Anorher station had the new dates so a ascend poster is in existence.

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I don't want to retire it! At present the WTT has the GWR train arriving at 0828 and the Southern one departing at 0831. I suspect that it wouldn't be an official connection unless at least ten minutes were allowed between the arrival and departure times (across the same island platform!), and even then would be unlikely to be held, so we are nowhere near that and never will be. It just needs common sense to prevail on the occasions when the GWR train is late but both trains are at the platform at the same time.

 

[tsr]

If this open data is correct regarding valid journey itineraries, it would be a valid connection if both services were run by Southern; you'd need 2 more minutes for a connection from GWR services.

http://www.brtimes.com/#!board?stn=RDH&show=info&date=20161102

Subject to accuracy of the open data, I'm sure that a delay caused by missing a 5 minute connection from GWR to Southern could result in some sort of valid complaint or (if lost time allowed) compensation claim against whomever caused it. For a 3 minute connection, I'm afraid it seems this is not officially justified. Note that this doesn't necessarily mean you can guarantee a train will be held; that is a whole different matter specified in the Connectional Policy for each TOC, often relating to the possibility of passengers being stranded/missing last connections on multi-leg journeys, or trains which are only useful when they are able to be held to connect with others (eg. Uckfield shuttles).

 

[Deepgreen]

If this open data is correct regarding valid journey itineraries, it would be a valid connection if both services were run by Southern; you'd need 2 more minutes for a connection from GWR services.

http://www.brtimes.com/#!board?stn=RDH&show=info&date=20161102

Subject to accuracy of the open data, I'm sure that a delay caused by missing a 5 minute connection from GWR to Southern could result in some sort of valid complaint or (if lost time allowed) compensation claim against whomever caused it. For a 3 minute connection, I'm afraid it seems this is not officially justified. Note that this doesn't necessarily mean you can guarantee a train will be held; that is a whole different matter specified in the Connectional Policy for each TOC, often relating to the possibility of passengers being stranded/missing last connections on multi-leg journeys, or trains which are only useful when they are able to be held to connect with others (eg. Uckfield shuttles).

Indeed, and note my point about the WTT 'connection' being three minutes - the PTT is one minute (0830 GWR arrival to 0831 S departure).
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Managed to catch the 0831 this morning. First class at the rear - no guard to be seen. Eventually he wandered slowly through after Coulsdon South, ticket machine in hand. However, he chose not to disturb the passengers in first class by actually checking their tickets (from overheard conversations I know many had standard class tickets) and wandered back to the front again. His sole contribution to passenger interaction (that I was aware of at least) was when he made a poor repeat of the recorded announcement as we approached Victoria.

While I strongly support the retention of guards for many reasons, the apparent growing indifference to their duties doesn't help their cause one bit. It's one thing to have low morale, but if you make the effort to amble through the train with your ticket machine anyway, why not actually check tickets? Disappointing.
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Last evening at Redhill was briefly interesting again - the 1649 from Victoria conveyed three portions - Three Bridges, Reigate and Tonbridge, in that order from the front. Of course the screens at Redhill had this wrong. Not sure why the tri-portion working was provided, but the on-train screens showed coaches 5-12 for Reigate, which should really be a message that cannot ever be displayed, as Reigate can only accommodate four cars!

 

[John R]

So trying to get back to the topic, I see that there will be more services on the BML in the next round of strikes which I presume is a result of more services being turned over to driver only operation. Which begs the question, by the time the latest set of strike dates are reached at the year end, how many more services will be running and will striking staff start to feel that the impact is reducing to the point whereby the strikes are futile?

 

[infobleep]

So why couldn't trains north of Haywards Heath be DOO in the past? Or was it only Gatwick Express and Thameslink that could be?

There is now suddenly at least two trains from Haywards Heath to Clapham Junction and Victoria every hour during the strike rather than most hours being none.

They are still stopping the Gatwick Express services additionally at Clapham Junction and East Croydon during the evening peak however.

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I don't want to retire it! At present the WTT has the GWR train arriving at 0828 and the Southern one departing at 0831. I suspect that it wouldn't be an official connection unless at least ten minutes were allowed between the arrival and departure times (across the same island platform!), and even then would be unlikely to be held, so we are nowhere near that and never will be. It just needs common sense to prevail on the occasions when the GWR train is late but both trains are at the platform at the same time.

My apologies. I meant retime. If course if their is 2 minutes extra in the PTT in addition to the WTT, it would be hard to do.

I wonder if you'll be affected by the signalling problem that has delayed the 6.32 Reading to Gatwick Service. It's terminating at Redhill today. Maybe it will be fixed by then. Still it's a strike timetable so the train times will be different on Southern.

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[Deepgreen]

This morning was probably the first strike day when my service was actually worse than the temporary timetable days (which some would say are still with us, given the appalling number of trains still being cancelled owing to crew shortages).

A half-hourly service was being run via Redhill to Victoria, and I arrived at Redhill from the 0830 GWR arrival for the 0850 to Victoria. This turned up at 0905 with not a word from the station staff about the late running. In the meantime I watched a string of down trains pass through, as I assume the Quarry line was closed again. At the same time, an up RHTT with 66s front and rear stood at the fast 'starting' signal for 20 minutes until it got a green, and jetted away. As no up trains had passed Redhill for at least 20 minutes, I assumed it was being held at Redhill until it could be sure of a clear route to the next available overtaking point, but we passed it stuck at a signal near Purley Oaks, so that was not apparently the case. The lead loco was easily the filthiest loco I have seen in the UK since the end of steam in 1968 (see photo).

By the time we eventually got to Stoats Nest, trains were using the Quarry route, so I don't know what the problem was there, but I also noticed that at least one Southeastern train to Hastings was being routed through Redhill, just to add to the chaos.

 

[infobleep]

So well advertised were the additional trains today and we're they busy with passengers?

This what the mobile home page says on Southern. Perhaps they forgot that today is the 4th. When you click on the link it takes you to a page that isn't mobile friendly. :roll:

http://www.southernrailway.com/mobile/

More RMT strikes announced

The RMT has announced that they plan further industrial action on the following dates:

Friday 4 November and Saturday 5 November
Tuesday 22 November until Wednesday 23 November
Tuesday 6 December until Thursday 8 December
Thursday 22 December until Saturday 24 December
Saturday 31 December until Monday 2 January 2017
If these strikes go ahead they will have a significant effect on our services. We are working on plans for the service we will operate and will advise you here as soon as we have more details on our RMT strike page.

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[Surreytraveller]

I know that, if I was a platform staff member I would make damn' sure that people alighting from an incoming train a few feet away would get the chance to board 'my' train by waiting a few seconds before raising my bat!

Presumably you ignore what your bosses tell you to do where you work?

 

[RichardKing]

http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/O41701/2016/11/04/advanced
This is an interesting additional strike-day Thameslink service!

 

[infobleep]

Intrestingly according to the Evening Standard, the RMT are claiming only 61% of Southern services are running today.

Govia claimed that last time and less trains were running then, so someone must be poor at their maths or lying. Which side is it? Or are they not counting trains that are only running along part of the route?

Given the press releases issued from both sides over time, it's hard to know who is right. This sums up the situation perfectly. It's hard to know who to trust.

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[Bishopstone]

Thirty-five minutes on a decrepit 51-plate Dennis Dart tonight, Lewes-Newhaven (about seven miles).

Far fewer seats than passengers. Steamed windows. Stuck in traffic because, still, they insist on routing rail replacement buses via a C-road feeding into the one-way system at Newhaven without priority. Anyone local would use the A26 & A27, which are also far more suitable for buses. Driver cruised past Southease without stopping, but unfortunately a hardy soul wanted that stop, so needed to be directed to the first bus back from Newhaven.

Two days in four, this week, where my Gatwick commute has averaged 15mph in both directions.

As I say: public transport atrophying to cater for those with absolutely no alternative.

 

[infobleep]

Shortage of staff tonight it seems. They say to check bavk in rail replacement buses what time do they expect to out out an update? It's gone midnight already.

http://www.nationalrail.co.uk/service_disruptions/150347.aspx

Reduced Thameslink service between Bedford and Brighton until 07:00 on Mondaycollapse Reduced Thameslink service between Bedford and Brighton until 07:00 on Monday panel
Live updates

National Rail
‏@nationalrailenq
Reduced Thameslink service between Bedford and Brighton until 07:00 on Monday #Thameslink twt.lt/5wy1
06 Nov 16 - 11:22
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Incident created
06/11/2016 11:10
Last updated
06/11/2016 19:37
Route affected
Between Bedford and Three Bridges / Brighton

TOC(s) affected
Thameslink;
Description
A shortage of train crew means there is a reduced service between Bedford and Brighton.
Customer Advice:
Until 07:00 on Monday morning, some services will be cancelled or amended. We advise that you allow extra time for your journey and to check before you travel using the National Rail Enquiries real-time Journey Planner.
Alternative travel options:
Until 07:00 on Monday morning you may travel on Gatwick Express and Southern services between London and Gatwick Airport / Brighton.
You may use London Buses between Elstree and Croydon on any reasonable route.
Rail Replacement buses are being arranged to supplement the reduced overnight service between Bedford and London Victoria. Please check back for updates on this.
Your rail ticket will be valid on these alternative travel options.
Twitter:
If you would like to follow this incident on Twitter, please use #Thameslink
Compensation:
You may be entitled to compensation if you experience a delay in completing your journey today. Please keep your train ticket and make a note of your journey, as both will be required to support any claim.
Delays Explained:
Delays to journeys are frustrating and the reasons given can be confusing. An explanation of the common causes of delays can be found here.
Feedback:
We want to make information better – tell us how! Fill out this online Disruption Survey.

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[Deepgreen]

Shortage of staff tonight it seems. They say to check bavk in rail replacement buses what time do they expect to out out an update? It's gone midnight already.

http://www.nationalrail.co.uk/service_disruptions/150347.aspx



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Sorry, I can't understand what this post means.

 

[infobleep]

Sorry, I can't understand what this post means.

Basically last night they said they would be providing rail replacement buses and you should check back for more info. The message went up or was revised after 7pm and after midnight there was no info up about the buses. So how late would one need to check back for the info? 2am, 3am? I don't know what time the buses were needed. Perhaps only 4am.

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--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Good to know that GTR are keeping passengers up-to-date with the latest information. This was in the platform 1 and 2 waiting room.

I know that not a full service is running due to staff shortages, which leads to the uncertainty they previously claimed they were trying to avoid. Also I know leaf fall issues have leaf to changes. However it very different in my opinion from July and that is the month they quote.

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[tsr]

Additional disruption in the form of a trespass incident at Norwood Jn affecting all routes via East & West Croydon this evening. Nearly everything at a stand in the area as I type.

 

[A Challenge]

Now BBC 1 - The Trouble With Our Railways.

 

[Chrisgr31]

Additional disruption in the form of a trespass incident at Norwood Jn affecting all routes via East & West Croydon this evening. Nearly everything at a stand in the area as I type.

Was a total stand for trains out of London Bridge and Victoria. We were next out of LBG when it hit and left 90 minutes late, which is probably a typical delay for most trains.

I imagine that as the evening went on it will get worse as crew will be displaced. No doubt many staff will be doing overtime as they are so delayed

 

[Carlisle]

Additional disruption in the form of a trespass incident at Norwood Jn .

Guess any of the TOCs that operate ithe vast majority of their services in a heavily urbanised environment are going to fall prey to these type of incidents from time to time

 

[mirodo]

Guess any of the TOCs that operate ithe vast majority of their services in a heavily urbanised environment are going to fall prey to these type of incidents from time to time

Yes, for once not something Southern could be blamed for. There was, however, a serious lack of communication. The train I was on was held at red for 20 minutes before the driver made us aware of what the problem was (possibly took that long for him to be informed) - by which time I had found out what was happening via Twitter.