Information for GTR Southern passengers during strike (no DOO discussion)

[physics34]

What a shambles of mis-information at East Croydon this evening - old signs dating from the slam-door era still not removed (i.e. 'Do Not board Moving Trains'), which were last valid in 2005! Also lots of signs warning that platforms 1 and 2 are uneven - they're not, as the re-surfacing work done months ago has made them the most even I have ever used. Who manages these things? If I was the manager here I would be walking round frequently to ensure the station was in good order and all redundant items were removed promptly.

Then there's the awful train running information - the 'Next Direct Train To...' screens don't agree with the 'Next Train' screens, and the information on the detailed describers is often wrong - the 1708 to Three Bridges and Reigate was today shown as four coaches - impossible if it was to divide at Redhill, and it was also shown as running at different times on the adjacent screens! This train was getting later and later, and if it was going to be only four coaches it would probably be packed so I abandoned it and went for the 1715 on platform 5. No good there either as the 1711 to MKC was still waiting for a road north and I saw the 1708 arriving as eight coaches! So, another run back to pfm 2 to get the 1708, now at 1716.

With the utter mess of mis-information, it's no wonder that so many passengers have to run back and forth at East Croydon, including the ramps with their pointless 'No Running' signs!

its this attention to detail that gets on my nerves.

The next direct screens are set up to show the "fastest train" so they may not agree with the next train ones.

The positioning of the screens and the quality of them surprises me....

 

[swt class 450]

Because a train requires a guard to stop there, and as the guards are on strike the trains running through Earlswood and Salfords are DOO.

I thought that Earlswood and Salfords were already suitable for DOO?

 

[TEW]

It is still served by FGW to Reading.

Yes, but First Great Western Link ceased to exist in 2006. It was the short lived brand for when First took over responsibility for the ex Thames Trains routes, but before the new Greater Western franchise was let.

 

[74A]

Because a train requires a guard to stop there, and as the guards are on strike the trains running through Earlswood and Salfords are DOO.

I thought the Brighton main line was already all DOO ?

 

[tsr]

Does anyone know why on strike days they cannot stop stop trains at Earlswood and Salford on the Brighton main line ?

Because a train requires a guard to stop there, and as the guards are on strike the trains running through Earlswood and Salfords are DOO.

I thought that Earlswood and Salfords were already suitable for DOO?

Earlswood and Salfords are only currently able to be served by DOO trains on an ad-hoc basis during severe delays to the service. To be fair, I can't see GTR wanting this limitation to stay the case for long. There are probably some complications with the situation, though - both stations have very limited staffing hours; Earlswood subway is very prone to flooding beyond being passable, meaning someone needs to be present to check passengers aren't stranded in wet weather; Earlswood Platform 2 has some interesting complications with bidirectional working; Salfords has an enormous gap on Platform 1 which may not be fully able to be checked with CCTV; the list goes on...

In addition, some of the turnarounds for Three Bridges-Victoria services have been quite short during the strike timetable. Adding calls at all the intermediate stops on the Redhill route probably wouldn't have worked very well.

These services have run to a broadly similar timetable on all the conductor strike days this year, including omitting Earlswood and Salfords, but only during the last one or two blocks of strike days have they run DOO.

I thought the Brighton main line was already all DOO ?

It most certainly isn't! There are quite a few exceptions to that, especially early morning/late evening. And there are various services which run on the BML for a good proportion of their journey, such as Horsham stoppers, which are still fully conductor operated.

 

[387star]

Yes, but First Great Western Link ceased to exist in 2006. It was the short lived brand for when First took over responsibility for the ex Thames Trains routes, but before the new Greater Western franchise was let.

They should be GWR branded now at Redhill, Reigate, Brighton, Hove, Shoreham, Worthing, Barnham and Chichester!

but not sure many passengers notice the 'other operators serving this station' signs

The flower pots at Harlington still read 'Sponsored by First Capital Connect' oh well keeps things interesting!

 

[ChiefPlanner]

Sterling non strike service today due to lack of TL train crews , only planning 2 tph Three Bridges to Bedford and seems that cannot be resourced. Ergo no 2 son is on a panned bus to TB - and if he cannot make the 2112 - will have a nice detour to Victoria - St Pancras by tube and take your chances there .......

Oh - and GATEX is only 2 tph as well. Rant over - but he has work in the morning. Friday of course was a meltdown (so his journey down was defered / cancelled by 24 hours) ......almost coming to the point where "is your journey really necessary" (WW2 slogan) , might be relevant......

 

[Bishopstone]

Oh - and GATEX is only 2 tph as well. Rant over - but he has work in the morning. Friday of course was a meltdown (so his journey down was defered / cancelled by 24 hours) ......almost coming to the point where "is your journey really necessary" (WW2 slogan) , might be relevant......

Yesterday (Saturday) was also difficult through a combination of staff shortages and various incidents.

I left Victoria at 21.45 and eventually rolled into Seaford on a rail replacement bus with some unsavoury drunk characters at 01.00. There seemed to be just one member of staff at Lewes, valiantly trying to organise road transport to a variety of destinations all over Sussex.

I'm sure more and more leisure custom is being lost, week by week. People will be driving or reverting to local attractions rather than venturing to London/Brighton. When this ends - although it feels like 'if', at the moment - there will be a big job to do in convincing people to return to the railway.

I guess the service levels are starting to impact commuter flows, too. Not sure who, if anyone, is buying all the new £500k 3-bed 'executive homes' around Haywards Heath, with the return rail trip now averaging three hours and peak Gatwick Express services being lost in 2018.

 

[ChiefPlanner]

Yesterday (Saturday) was also difficult through a combination of staff shortages and various incidents.

I left Victoria at 21.45 and eventually rolled into Seaford on a rail replacement bus with some unsavoury drunk characters at 01.00. There seemed to be just one member of staff at Lewes, valiantly trying to organise road transport to a variety of destinations all over Sussex.

I'm sure more and more leisure custom is being lost, week by week. People will be driving or reverting to local attractions rather than venturing to London/Brighton. When this ends - although it feels like 'if', at the moment - there will be a big job to do in convincing people to return to the railway.

I guess the service levels are starting to impact commuter flows, too. Not sure who, if anyone, is buying all the new £500k 3-bed 'executive homes' around Haywards Heath, with the return rail trip now averaging three hours and peak Gatwick Express services being lost in 2018.

He made a jammed train to Victoria , St Pancras and then by luck a slow train. Could have been worse. Not much of an advert for travel in the 21st Century.....impact on perception of "service" is very poor , let alone the stress for those with flights to get at say Luton ...(as well as Gatwick !)

 

[Deepgreen]

its this attention to detail that gets on my nerves.

The next direct screens are set up to show the "fastest train" so they may not agree with the next train ones.

The positioning of the screens and the quality of them surprises me....

However, the next direct train to Redhill and the next train at the platform were the same train, just being shown with different times on the adjacent screens!
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Earlswood and Salfords are only currently able to be served by DOO trains on an ad-hoc basis during severe delays to the service. To be fair, I can't see GTR wanting this limitation to stay the case for long. There are probably some complications with the situation, though - both stations have very limited staffing hours; Earlswood subway is very prone to flooding beyond being passable, meaning someone needs to be present to check passengers aren't stranded in wet weather; Earlswood Platform 2 has some interesting complications with bidirectional working; Salfords has an enormous gap on Platform 1 which may not be fully able to be checked with CCTV; the list goes on...

In addition, some of the turnarounds for Three Bridges-Victoria services have been quite short during the strike timetable. Adding calls at all the intermediate stops on the Redhill route probably wouldn't have worked very well.

These services have run to a broadly similar timetable on all the conductor strike days this year, including omitting Earlswood and Salfords, but only during the last one or two blocks of strike days have they run DOO.



It most certainly isn't! There are quite a few exceptions to that, especially early morning/late evening. And there are various services which run on the BML for a good proportion of their journey, such as Horsham stoppers, which are still fully conductor operated.

The 0831 Redhill to Victoria was cancelled today - crew shortage. The 0840 to London Bridge lost time en route as usual (9 late at LBG), with not a word from the crew for the whole journey about the delays or any sign of the guard/conductor/OBS at any time. I prefer strike days!

 

[Bishopstone]

The number of cancellations due to staff shortage is creeping back up, on the Seaford line and maybe elsewhere. At least three round trips between the peaks have been binned today, for example.

Maybe resources are particularly stretched during half term, but this doesn't auger well for the return of the Brighton-Southampton service, next week.

I hate to say it, but after a few weeks of chaos I can see another iteration of an emergency timetable being reintroduced. Hope I'm proved wrong, though.

 

[tony6499]

The number of cancellations due to staff shortage is creeping back up, on the Seaford line and maybe elsewhere. At least three round trips between the peaks have been binned today, for example.

Maybe resources are particularly stretched during half term, but this doesn't auger well for the return of the Brighton-Southampton service, next week.

I hate to say it, but after a few weeks of chaos I can see another iteration of an emergency timetable being reintroduced. Hope I'm proved wrong, though.

It would be preferable if they made sure they had the staff resources to run the service before announcing a timetable would run. Not sure why half term would stretch resources as only the same numbers allowed on leave as any other time

 

[Gareth4949]

I wasn't aware Gatwick Express from Haywards Heath are no more in the peaks from 2018, has this been confirmed
Sorry if I've missed the annocement

 

[MrB]

I wasn't aware Gatwick Express from Haywards Heath are no more in the peaks from 2018, has this been confirmed
Sorry if I've missed the annocement

I think that this is one of many changes that are being introduced as part of the big Thameslink/Southern timetable recast at the completion of the London Bridge Works.

 

[swt class 450]

The number of cancellations due to staff shortage is creeping back up, on the Seaford line and maybe elsewhere. At least three round trips between the peaks have been binned today, for example.

Maybe resources are particularly stretched during half term, but this doesn't auger well for the return of the Brighton-Southampton service, next week.

I hate to say it, but after a few weeks of chaos I can see another iteration of an emergency timetable being reintroduced. Hope I'm proved wrong, though.

I have noticed that as well. They say that they have reintroduced the full Brighton - Lewes - Seaford train services but quite a few do indeed seem to be getting cancelled.

 

[Bishopstone]

Not sure why half term would stretch resources as only the same numbers allowed on leave as any other time

But fewer volunteers for Rest Day Working amongst those with kids at home, maybe?
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

I wasn't aware Gatwick Express from Haywards Heath are no more in the peaks from 2018, has this been confirmed
Sorry if I've missed the annocement

I should have said, it's the subject of a live consultation (link via Southern website), but clearly it's what GTR/DFT wish to do.

Meanwhile - no trains or replacement buses to Lewes and adjacent stations after mid-day on Saturday November 5th. The Bonfire Societies traditionally burn a huge effigy, and I have tendered my suggestions.

 

[radamfi]

Lots of consecutive Thameslink trains to Brighton cancelled this evening.

 

[Deepgreen]

Very poor yesterday and today, with multiple cancellations and late running seemingly over much of the GTR network. I caught the 0836 Redhill to London Bridge this morning. On time at Redhill but 10 late at London Bridge; again. No sign of the guard/conductor/OBS, and the PIS showed Littlehaven as the next station until we got to Purley when it changed to 'Listen to announcements', etc. First class at the back filled up at East Croydon and Norwood Junction - is it a generally-held belief by passengers at these stations that first class does not apply? It certainly seems so by the nonchalant attitude shown by those boarding at Norwood Junction who sat there without a second thought!

 

[HowardGWR]

Very poor yesterday and today, with multiple cancellations and late running seemingly over much of the GTR network. I caught the 0836 Redhill to London Bridge this morning. On time at Redhill but 10 late at London Bridge; again. No sign of the guard/conductor/OBS, and the PIS showed Littlehaven as the next station until we got to Purley when it changed to 'Listen to announcements', etc. First class at the back filled up at East Croydon and Norwood Junction - is it a generally-held belief by passengers at these stations that first class does not apply? It certainly seems so by the nonchalant attitude shown by those boarding at Norwood Junction who sat there without a second thought!

I am not knowledgeable about SN emus -are they 377s? If so, I can understand this, as I sat in first class to Gatwick from Clapham Jcn without realising it, at least once. Anything four-a-side I think is a nerve to call first class.

 

[Deepgreen]

I am not knowledgeable about SN emus -are they 377s? If so, I can understand this, as I sat in first class to Gatwick from Clapham Jcn without realising it, at least once. Anything four-a-side I think is a nerve to call first class.

They are. The first class sections are very poor but they do have stickers on the windows, signs on the partitions and antimacassars with a 'First Class' legend, plus a huge yellow cant rail-level stripe and a large first class legend below the windows outside. It shouldn't be hard to know when one is in a first class section, even if in name only. My point was that I think the good folk of Norwood Junction take no notice of first class as they either think it doesn't apply to them or they will get away with it as inspections are rarer than on-time arrivals at Southern's London termini!

 

[Bishopstone]

If I recall correctly, there were no first class fares from Norwood Junction to London until quite recently, which caused a degree of confusion/doubt that some sought to exploit. However, I see there are now FC fares listed, so it should be enforced.

I suspect the commuters of Norwood are accustomed to piling into declassified first when 377s appear on Metro duties, and don't give much thought to first class being 'live' on the Horshams etc, or are genuinely unaware. If you get away with it for a week, you probably assume nobody cares, and indeed I detect very little appetite to enforce FC north of Croydon.

 

[HowardGWR]

They are. The first class sections are very poor but they do have stickers on the windows, signs on the partitions and antimacassars with a 'First Class' legend, plus a huge yellow cant rail-level stripe and a large first class legend below the windows outside. It shouldn't be hard to know when one is in a first class section, even if in name only. My point was that I think the good folk of Norwood Junction take no notice of first class as they either think it doesn't apply to them or they will get away with it as inspections are rarer than on-time arrivals at Southern's London termini!

I don't want to go too OT but believe me, when you are a stranger to the line, struggling with cases and platform gaps and huge crowds at CLJ, you aren't looking at yellow lines on the roof or tatty labels. I had wondered why a couple of seats were left free but all soon made itself clear!!

 

[Deepgreen]

I don't want to go too OT but believe me, when you are a stranger to the line, struggling with cases and platform gaps and huge crowds at CLJ, you aren't looking at yellow lines on the roof or tatty labels. I had wondered why a couple of seats were left free but all soon made itself clear!!

It's not OT as it concerns information to Southern passengers, and is particularly relevant to the strikes because it now seems that almost no guards/conductors/OBSs bother to undertake any checks at all. My ex-Horsham train (via Redhill) this morning was the usual 377/6, first class at the back. No sign or sound of the guard except when he simply repeated the recorded announcement as we crossed Grosvenor Bridge. Why the guard cannot locate in the first class vestibule on these units is beyond me (they do have a guard's position there on the 377/6s and 377/7s) - especially when the area is at the rear of the train - the guard would provide a staff presence at the rear and be able to monitor first class easily (as well as being a deterrent to the 'chancers'). There must be something going on in the background which is having an effect on morale, but I can't think what...

The labels aren't tatty except in a very few cases, the seats now all permanently carry antimacassars with the first class legend and the outside of the train not only has the thick yellow stripe but, more relevantly to most people, the very large legend 'First class' below the windows. While I think the labelling should be even better, there is no excuse for failing to be aware of first class, either before boarding or after, rather than the masses that I witness simply not taking their eyes off their 'phones and plonking down in the first free seat. This morning was another example; even by Redhill first class was filling up with people who clearly either didn't care or were not paying any attention to their surroundings.

It would also be helpful to have small stickers on the backs of seats in first class with the legend;

'This is FIRST CLASS. NOT applicable on METRO services'.

This would give the 'phone addicts less reason not to know where they are.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

If I recall correctly, there were no first class fares from Norwood Junction to London until quite recently, which caused a degree of confusion/doubt that some sought to exploit. However, I see there are now FC fares listed, so it should be enforced.

I suspect the commuters of Norwood are accustomed to piling into declassified first when 377s appear on Metro duties, and don't give much thought to first class being 'live' on the Horshams etc, or are genuinely unaware. If you get away with it for a week, you probably assume nobody cares, and indeed I detect very little appetite to enforce FC north of Croydon.

First class fares from NJ may be new, but the calling of some main line trains there is not, and has been happening for decades. These almost always call at platform 3, which regulars know is the 'main line' platform. It is simply the case that no attempts are made to enforce first class north of East Croydon (and almost none elsewhere) despite the 10-15 minutes journey times being suitable for doing so (except in exceptionally crowded conditions).
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---


I caught a train from Victoria to Redhill last evening, and was bemused to witness the terrible information given to two women tourists who wanted to get to Gatwick. They boarded at the very rear and sat in first class. Then they became anxious as to whether they were on the right train and got off to ask a member of staff on the platform. She simply waved at the train and said "Yes, Gatwick", with no mention at all of the fact that the front portion only was for Gatwick! The women re-boarded and then watched the scrolling PIS, which confused them even more, as it simply showed Reigate and Three Bridges portions, with no mention of Gatwick. More confusion and asking around to be told that yes, this was the right train, and that they should be at the front. They sat back down in first after a while (I could see they were clutching standard tickets) and finally moved forward after East Croydon.

All this confusion could be avoided (and I witness it often) by the very easy means of amending the PIS to show '...Three Bridges, via Gatwick Airport" and removing the spurious 'en route' wording concerning the division at Redhill. This would take account of the nature of much of the traffic to Gatwick - i.e. occasional/foreign travellers who have no idea where Three Bridges is, nor care.

I have suggested this to Southern a few times, and each time have simply received the same 'stock' reply about how seriously they take passenger information, with absolutely no specific reference to my suggestion whatsoever.

 

[Chrisgr31]

It is simply the case that no attempts are made to enforce first class north of East Croydon (and almost none elsewhere) despite the 10-15 minutes journey times being suitable for doing so (except in exceptionally crowded conditions).

I think the conductors regularly check First Class on the unit they are in on the Class 171s as I seem them pass through my unit and I assume they are going to the 1st class at the ends. However their passing through the train is less frequent north of Oxted and very rare north of East Croydon, presumably due to the number of people standing.

For the same reason I guess there are very rarely ticket checks for standard class ticket holders in those locations on peak hour trains. Off-peak by ticket is checked on most journeys, although less frequently on the last train. Having said that a conductor has woken me up on the last train at Crowborough and said "Isnt this your stop?" Great customer service!

 

[Deepgreen]

I think the conductors regularly check First Class on the unit they are in on the Class 171s as I seem them pass through my unit and I assume they are going to the 1st class at the ends. However their passing through the train is less frequent north of Oxted and very rare north of East Croydon, presumably due to the number of people standing.

For the same reason I guess there are very rarely ticket checks for standard class ticket holders in those locations on peak hour trains. Off-peak by ticket is checked on most journeys, although less frequently on the last train. Having said that a conductor has woken me up on the last train at Crowborough and said "Isnt this your stop?" Great customer service!

Yes - my perception is that the Uckfield line is treated as something of a special case in terms of enforcement and general staff visibility. I have certainly experienced this when I have travelled on the 171s, and it was noticeable how different the operation was to the 377s, for example.

 

[Islineclear3_1]

Although not strictly relevant to this particular thread, I wonder the reason why at weekends, there is an announcement regarding declassification of first class on TL 319's on metro services. Obviously there are no guards but what is the reason?. Could it be that there aren't any/enough RPIs to police the trains or can't GTR be bothered to enforce it any more?

 

[Quakkerillo]

I just looked at timetable 52, and to me it seems that the TL metro services to Sutton / Sevenoaks don't convey any 1st class according to the official timetable.

 

[Deepgreen]

Although not strictly relevant to this particular thread, I wonder the reason why at weekends, there is an announcement regarding declassification of first class on TL 319's on metro services. Obviously there are no guards but what is the reason?. Could it be that there aren't any/enough RPIs to police the trains or can't GTR be bothered to enforce it any more?

It depends what you mean by "Metro" services on TL, but the Sutton to St. Albans and Sutton to Luton trains have standard only seating all week.

 

[Islineclear3_1]

It must be official then. Most the 319's I have seen (i.e. the 4's) still have first class seating and markings and platform announcements at, say West Hampstead Thameslink informs patients that they can travel in any part of the train as first class is declassified. These are 319's that work around the Sutton loop (hence the metro working)

 

[Deepgreen]

It must be official then. Most the 319's I have seen (i.e. the 4's) still have first class seating and markings and platform announcements at, say West Hampstead Thameslink informs patients that they can travel in any part of the train as first class is declassified. These are 319's that work around the Sutton loop (hence the metro working)

Freudian! This is in much in the same way that Southern's 377/6 and /7s have declassified first class on their Metro routes. I have somewhat lost the plot on the current variants within the 319 fleet, but, broadly, some have first class and some have had it removed. When units with first class still intact are used on Sutton line trains then announcements are appropriate. I bet it's not consistently-applied though, as Southern's certainly isn't!