Interpretation of "impartial retailing"

[hairyhandedfool]

As impartial as they reasonably can be, yes

When I worked in London there was a semi-regular passenger who occasionally needed tickets for Scotland, or more specifically, a Glasgow-Edinburgh day return. What ticket should the passenger have been offered? (bear in mind the clerk has three minutes as it's off peak and they have a queue forming).

 

[barrykas]

The impartiality requirement in the Ticketing and Settlement Agreement is to offer the most suitable fare for the journey being made, regardless of operator.

For the avoidance of doubt, that's the most suitable through fare (where one exists, which it does in the majority of cases) between the named stations and does NOT require the clerk to check fares between other stations, even where it may be cheaper to do so!

Yes, it may be good customer service to offer a cheaper fare if you know of its existence, but it also serves to confuse customers, who then complain that they've been sold the "wrong" ticket, which results in you being told not to sell it! (Can you tell I've experienced that situation?)

Case in point: An Anytime Day Single from Wakefield Stations to Sheffield, route Not Doncaster, is £8.20. An Anytime Day Single from Normanton (one stop nearer to Leeds) is only £7.60. Discovered that little anomaly after a late night bustitution...

Cheers,

Barry

 

[jon0844]

So, it beenfits everyone if the wise and experienced passenger asks for precisely what they want, as this will save much time for the clerk, the customer and the others waiting behind them. The last thing anyone needs is to ask more questions when they are not necessary!

I always dread having to ask for a ticket extension from BZ6 to Heathrow, using Heathrow Connect. It sounds very simple, but you wouldn't believe how hard (sometimes impossible) it is to get one from Hatfield. If they insist it isn't possible, or claim there's only Heathrow Express, I then have no choice but to queue up at Paddington to get it - and that may well mean missing the first available train.

What's more, if you asked for the cheapest ticket to Heathrow - they'd probably go with the tube (maybe pointing out that I can use my TC) and then Heathrow Express. Heathrow Connect appears to be totally unknown so it would not get recommended, even though it's cheaper than HEX and arguably faster and more convenient than the tube.

 

[yorkie]

jonmorris0844 - FCC are in breach of the rules of impartiality by not selling that fare. I suggest you contact FCC about this issue. If no adequate response is received, then you can forward the complaint to Passenger Focus and ATOC. It could also worth informing Heathrow Connect that FCC are not adhering to their obligations to sell the ticket. But, I'd say give FCC a chance to respond first.

If all the above fails and FCC continue to fail to adhere to the rules of impartial retailing, then they are in breach of the Ticketing & Settlement Agreement (TSA), compliance with this is a franchise commitment. The DfT can be informed of this. If it gets to this stage, it may be worth us doing some 'mystery shopping' to establish the scale of the problem before submitting a complaint to the DfT.

However I am confident FCC will handle the complaint and correct this, as evidence presented to me so far, is positive in that regard, so further action should not be necessary.

 

[jon0844]

They will sometimes do it, it's a staff training issue - some just don't know how to do much more than basic returns and travelcards to London.

It's no point trying to guide them as they invariably think you're trying to tell them how to do their job, and often continue to insist there's no such ticket. I've even shown a previously issued one to be told that it must have changed. Some staff (who I believe are agency staff) can get quite rude when you're asking for a ticket you KNOW exists but they can't issue for reasons that a customer shouldn't be worrying about.

To be fair, they sometimes show the screen they're looking at and it isn't made very clear to staff. In some respects, I think BAA tries hard not to advertise Heathrow Connect too. I bet if you wrote to them, they'd actually be quite happy to learn that it wasn't being actively sold over Heathrow Express.

 

[island]

I always dread having to ask for a ticket extension from BZ6 to Heathrow, using Heathrow Connect. It sounds very simple, but you wouldn't believe how hard (sometimes impossible) it is to get one from Hatfield. If they insist it isn't possible, or claim there's only Heathrow Express, I then have no choice but to queue up at Paddington to get it - and that may well mean missing the first available train.

Boundary Zone 6 (0072) to Heathrow Rail (H584) is £5.50 SDS. Hayes & Harlingtn (3186) to Heathrow Rail is £5.20 SDS. The latter is the ticket (I think) anyone with a zone 1-6 Travelcard ought to get to travel on Heathrow Connect from Paddington the Heathrow. Since Travelcards aren't valid on Heathrow Express at all, I'm not sure what ticket they could sell (other than one for your full journey) which is valid on HEX. Neither of the two tickets I mentioned come with more than a single route option.

 

[jon0844]

The ticket I get is actually Hayes & Harlington to Heathrow, not BZ6, which from memory is marked NOT LONDON and (I think) any permitted - and perhaps that is why staff also get confused.

Clearly it means you can't go into London and back out, perhaps taking HEX, but you wouldn't be doing that as it's one stop from Hayes & Harlington to Heathrow. I guess as soon as staff see the not london restriction, they're assuming I can't travel into London with that ticket - forgetting that I have my travelcard for that bit and so it can be ignored.

I don't personally think that wanting to use Heathrow Connect is a very odd request, but it would seem that I must be the only one that ever asks. I have to assume others pay the much higher price to use HEX, or take the tube. HEX can sometimes be essential for time reasons, but Heathrow Connect doesn't take much longer as long as you bear in mind it only runs every 30 minutes.

For a while, it was advertised as 'The smart Londoner uses Heathrow Connect' but now I think it's kept as hidden as possible. Even the platforms the trains use are not easy to find (and even fewer probably know about the shortcut from arriving on the H&C Line platform).

 

[Greenback]

Fares could be set centrally with TOCs merely bidding to run a specified service. You can still have a franchised rail network without the TOCs deciding fares.

Indeed, but that would require changes to the legal framework of the industry, and probably changes to the laws themselves that govern the network.

Remember I said I haven't seen a workable proposal within the current industry set up!

And that is what I am talking about.
EMT ticket office. Choice of two tickets. One gives EMT more money and other TOCs less. EMT only suggest that ticket. Impartial?

OK, EMT run the ticket office and the customer asks to travel to B from A (let's assume the customer is actually at A).

If there are two suitable fares. impartial retailing requires that the cheapest be sold, regardless of whether the retailer gets more, less or the same revenue from it.

If the ticket sold is the cheapest for the customer, then that is fine. If EMT also get more revenue from that one, that is also fine.

If EMT only offer, or sell a ticket that is more expensive for the customer because they get more revenue share, than that is not impartial. The principle is that customers interests must be served first, and not those of any particular TOC, regardless of whether they are retailing the ticket or not.

 

[hairyhandedfool]

I believe the point was that as Chesterfield-Dore was cheaper than Chesterfield-Sheffield, a passenger travelling to Sheffield should be offered the Dore ticket, not the Sheffield ticket, as the Dore ticket gives less money to EMT and more to TPE which is therefore impartial.

 

[Greenback]

I see. Don't agree that they should though!

 

[hairyhandedfool]

I don't think in the wider scheme of things, that it is practical.

 

[exile]

There's a business opportunity for someone to offer to find split tickets for a journey for 5% of the saving achieved.

 

[Greenback]

There's a business opportunity for someone to offer to find split tickets for a journey for 5% of the saving achieved.

Good luck! It's something that I considered but concluded that the money made would not be much. Remember that splits don't save money on ALL journeys, and sometimes the saving can be very small. Even finding a saving of £30 would result in £1.50 revenue!

Another ocnsideration, of course, was that people can probably find better splits saving more money, without paying anyhting by using this forum!

 

[exile]

Well, I imagine people who are in the know can tell fairly easily which journeys are not worth bothering with trying to find a split, which is where humans have an advantage!

 

[Greenback]

Local knowledge counts for a lot, but things can change... for historical reasons it became a lot cheaper to split at Swansea when going to Cardiff for the day from Llanelli, but the saving got smaller and smaller until it was cheaper NOT to split again!

 

[yorkie]

There's a business opportunity for someone to offer to find split tickets for a journey for 5% of the saving achieved.

I agree. If a travel agent with a license to sell tickets from ATOC (these are very expensive) wishes to tap into the knowledge of this forum, they could try contacting us, and if their offer is good enough, who knows...

The only other way to do it would be to run a ticket office in the style of Chester-le-Street, in co-operation with the relevant TOC.

 

[RJ]

I always dread having to ask for a ticket extension from BZ6 to Heathrow, using Heathrow Connect. It sounds very simple, but you wouldn't believe how hard (sometimes impossible) it is to get one from Hatfield. If they insist it isn't possible, or claim there's only Heathrow Express, I then have no choice but to queue up at Paddington to get it - and that may well mean missing the first available train.

What's more, if you asked for the cheapest ticket to Heathrow - they'd probably go with the tube (maybe pointing out that I can use my TC) and then Heathrow Express. Heathrow Connect appears to be totally unknown so it would not get recommended, even though it's cheaper than HEX and arguably faster and more convenient than the tube.

Why not just specify the precise ticket you want? Why would you even mention Heathow Connect? There's absoultely nothing to stop you specifying merely the origin and destination and getting them to issue that ticket.