hairyhandedfool
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It's just not that simple.
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Interpretation of "impartial retailing"
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R
RailUK Forums
The network is mostly supposed to work by buying a ticket from origin to destination, and not by buying tickets in sections.
It always comes with a certain amount of risk.
It may restrict the routes you can take, the trains you can take, the times you can travel, the excess you can get, the compensation you may receive, etc.. It may cause problems with being stranded (although it shouldn't, there are times when it might).
While I think most people here understand these drawbacks I don't really think it's something that is suitable for the average person turning up at the station to buy an otherwise simple ticket.
It always comes with a certain amount of risk.
It may restrict the routes you can take, the trains you can take, the times you can travel, the excess you can get, the compensation you may receive, etc.. It may cause problems with being stranded (although it shouldn't, there are times when it might).
While I think most people here understand these drawbacks I don't really think it's something that is suitable for the average person turning up at the station to buy an otherwise simple ticket.
xml or sql would be fine for me, thanks!
RJ
Established Member
It's impossible for some people to comprehend the concept that splitting can introduce a whole new batch of restrictions which Joe Public doesn't necessarily want to have to commit to.
Here's one for the experts;
1. A Euston to Northampton SDR costs £49.10, journey time 1 hour each way. I wish to leave Euston on the next train at 05:30 and be back in Euston by 09:45. How can I use split ticketing to save money?
Yes, that is definitely another reason why splits should be left to the individual to research and not offered by staff as part of impartial retailing, or any other requirement. It really could be a minefield.
RJ
Established Member
You might as well be talking to a brick wall - some people who consider themselves to be literate in ticketing can't grasp the concept that punters might not want to be further restricted, or having to run around trying to get excesses and all the rest of it. Evidently, understanding tickets and understanding customer needs are two entirely seperate things which are both important - but some people don't have any idea what the latter entails. Confusing people by having to explain the various restrictions your ingenious calculations have produced is not a good way to behave if you actually sell tickets.
Would anyone on here prefer walk on fares to continue to be market priced? As opposed to like
http://www.ns.nl/binaries/content/a...internet/tweedeklastariefeenheden1jan2011.pdf
?
http://www.ns.nl/binaries/content/a...internet/tweedeklastariefeenheden1jan2011.pdf
?
I have not yet seen a proposal to replace the current system, complicated and poor though it is, with some thing that will work any better within our fragmented industry.
Can you explain what you propose?
To be fair, I've not (on here) seen many people post extremely complex ticketing options without first asking posters if they are willing to go out of their way or make their journey extremely long.
It's hard to know, but I think many people will respond with 'better the devil you know'. There's the danger/likelihood that any major overhaul of train fares would result in the removal of cheaper tickets, with higher-priced fares being the standard upon which any standardised system was based.
RJ
Established Member
I was referring more to the suggestions that the TOCs should be more proactive in telling people about splitting via their staff and websites.
I'm open minded on any proposals, but the big dangers with a mileage based system are the loss of flexibility on routes, and the fact that there will still be fare anomalies.
Fragmentation of the industry need not mean that a unified fare system cannot be devised. Several rail operators exist in the Netherlands and they all observe the fares that I posted. The only significant issue is that you now have to specify a 'via' station if you want to travel on a particular company. Obviously a recast of fares would necessitate a one-off renegotiation of franchises.
Can you explain what the fares system is in the Netherlands? If I want to travel from Leeuwarden to Maastricht, what sort of route and ticket options are there?
I'm sorry but I cannot make sense of the fares you posted, as it's not clear to me how they are applied.
I'm sorry but I cannot make sense of the fares you posted, as it's not clear to me how they are applied.
Look up the distance between the stations on these maps:
http://www.ns.nl/binaries/content/a...atie/gerardns-afstanden-az-loket-dec-2010.pdf
http://www.ns.nl/binaries/content/a...atie/gerardns-afstanden-vz-loket-dec-2010.pdf
Then refer to the table I posted for single fares. The first column is the distance, second column is full fare, third column is the fare with 40% reduction (for example, those who hold a 'voordeelurenkaart'), the fourth column is the FIP discount and the last column is for 20% discount (I'm not sure who gets this discount).
I don't even have to look at the map for your example as I know it is over 247km so it is going to be €23.50 full fare single or €14.10 with 40% discount. Returns are twice the single.
Right, thanks, that makes more sense!
So with Leeuwarden - Maastricht, I have my 47 euro return. I want to travel today and return in two weeks. I want to travel there as quickyl as possible and on the way back I want to stop off in Geldermalsen for a couple of hours to say hello to Aunty Ingrid. I then propose to continue via Utrecht. Would that be OK, or would I be limited to a particular permitted route?
I'm not 100% up to speed on permitted routes but breaks of journey are OK and Utrecht and Geldermalsen are on the most sensible route anyway. You have to return the same day so if you are returning a different day then you need two singles, which is the same price anyway. If you are returning the same day you might as well get a day ticket which is the same price as the maximum return (47) or if you also want unlimited bus/tram/metro travel, you can pay a few euro extra.
Singles are only valid for a day so you need to complete the journey on the same day if you are breaking your journey.
(Although there is some controversy about the implementation of the OV-Chipkaart which will mean you have to check out a certain number of hours after checking in).
John @ home
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Not splitting but booking from another station and starting 'short':
SDR South Hampstead - Northampton route + London £48.90 saves 20p. Don't spend it all at once!
SickyNicky
Verified Rep - FastJP
Would you suggest a similar system here, where there are no period returns, no advances and, presumably no local rangers or rovers?
If so, how would you deal with those people who currently usually buy off peak returns and stay away for a day or tow (or longer). How would you address the concerns of individual TOC's that claim they will lose revenue?
I'm not trying to have a go at you, I would love to have a simpler system based on distance. But realistically, some industry members and customer groups are going to need convincing that they will not lose out.
If a human being can do it (and I can), a computer can do it. It's a simpler problem than, for example, working out a road route from London to Istanbul which my computer can do in less than a second. There is a limited number of possible split points. The computer works through each one adding the cost of A to split point to the cost of split point to B. If any split works out cheaper than the end to end fare then see if that fare is available.
I have been told by someone who works as a programmer for an online ticket retailer that the reason it's not done is that it's not allowed by ATOC. He hasn't told me he can't write a program to do this, and I'm sure he could.
I don't think it is simpler than a route from London to Istanbul. There are a great many variables to consider, all of which have to be included in the program. As has been mentioned, you have to consider starting short, finishing short, the number of possible routes between A and B, just for a start.
As for ATOC, well, they are not keen on publicisng split fares, that's for sure. It's arguable whether this is more due to concerns about revenue or the sheer of logistics of it and the possibility of claims from customers should they find cheaper possible splits due to deficincies in the programs or the data. Given the inconsistencies in many sources of information the latter is probably very difficult to avoid.
Example - I regularly travel from Warrington to Newcastle. The through fare is never, ever cheaper than splitting, and the difference can be up to £30 per journey, not a trivial amount if I'm organising a trip for 3. I can split at York, Leeds or Manchester. I can of course work it out myself after maybe 30 minutes trying various permutations. A computer could do this in seconds.
Can you calculate every split between Brighton and Aberdeen?
Which of the possible routes gives the best split?
There are far more possible road routes between London and Istanbul than rail routes between A and B in the UK - any that are not in the RG can be ignored for a start.
I suspect it's revenue. Helping customers to find the best deal isn't part of their mission statement.
There are a lot of A's and B's in the UK!
Also, if splitting tickets it's feasible that some routes not permitted by the routeing guide on a through ticket may be cheaper when splitting. And be careful about underestimating the complexity of the Routeing Guide itself!
Contrary to popular opinion, not many businesses are that keen to point out the best deal for the customer. There has been recent talk of mobile phone tariffs for a start, where companies and their staff have been accused of deliberately misselloing phones and contracts in order to increase their profits or commission. This is what the TOC's face in reality should there be any requirement to find the cheapest deal for the customer, including all possible combinations of splits and routes.
Similarly, despite their advertising, the major supermarkets are only interested in gaining custom from the others. To do this they highlight loss leaders and make all sorts of claims backed up by statistics that can be used to prove just about anything.
hairyhandedfool
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Care to list all the routes that could be used by split tickets between Brighton and Aberdeen?
And all of the splitting points!
Well, there I would need a computer!
1. Obtain the possible split points using the actual stopping points of trains on permitted routes
2. For each split point
2.1 Find fare Aberdeen to split
2.2 Find fare split to Brighton
You now have an array of at most 2,500 pairs of fares (assuming the worst ie every GB station is a possible split point)
3. Find the cheapest through fare
4. Are any of your split fares less than this? If so, for the cheapest split, find if the fare is available and present it to the user as an option, with caveats.
How do you come up with 2500 pairs of fares at most? Why are you assuming that it would not be cheaper to split two, three or even more times?
You would have to check every possible split and combination of split, on and off permitted routes, to ensure that you have provided the customer with the absolute cheapest possible fare, in order to avoid litigation.
You would have to check every possible split and combination of split, on and off permitted routes, to ensure that you have provided the customer with the absolute cheapest possible fare, in order to avoid litigation.
SickyNicky
Verified Rep - FastJP
Indeed. But what about when you need to split the ticket into 3 or more fares (in some cases over 10) to get the best price. Now you're talking rather more than 2500 splits because you effectively need to index the price from every possible station on route, to every other possible station.
Edit - Greenback beat me to it
but he's right. You would, in effect, need to check every fare from every station to every other one (except those on dead-end branches) to ensure you get the absolute best price.Edit2: In fact - you'd probably need to check fares to branches as well, because sometimes it's cheaper to buy a ticket onto a branch and alight early at the junction.
Edit3: Wow - it's worse than I thought. This number grows exponentially - you're looking at factorial numbers that my calculator actually gives an overflow on!
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