Intersex Train on SWR

[lachlan]

Absolutely.

This does seem to be a concept which is increasingly becoming alien in our culture - either you love and support everything about a certain issue, or hate and despise it. Is it possible to love the person who commits the sin, and yet condemn the sin itself? Increasingly the answer seems to be no. This is the key issue I have with many of the posts people have made on this forum. If "condemn the sin, love the sinner" is impossible, love, in its every form, would not exist, pure and simple.

We are all sinners. We are also all God's children, created in His own image, and loved by Him. Why should we condemn others for being sinful, when we, however much we wish to ignore it, are sinners ourselves? "As I have loved you, so must you love one another." - John 13:34.

Think of the Prodigal Son. The father does not run after his son, but he waits for him to return. Not judgmentally, like the older brother, but still in perfect and unconditional love for his lost son - not his profligacy, not his sins, but for his son - and organises the huge feast upon his return.

Why can we not be more like that - on both sides? We won't ever agree unequivocally with the actions, beliefs etc. of any other person in this world, past, present, or future.

Love and agreement are two different things - and hate and disagreement even more so. Things need not be so black-and-white.

To be clear: I do not support gay marriage (not necessarily all relationships), I do not support the Scottish identification bill that was blocked, I am very strongly against abortion; it annoys me somewhat when people, after listening to me explain myself politically, automatically assume that I take a liberal approach in such matters (given I'm otherwise a fairly textbook left-winger). This, I think, shows the kind of issues around how polarised this is, shows how black-and-white things are (which I'm not suggesting is due to any particular "side" on this discussion).

Nevertheless, I support "inclusivity", and I think that's where the distinction is going un-noticed. My belief is that the orientation, faith, gender, and age (to an extent) of whoever is driving my train, checking my ticket, operating the doors, emptying the bins, fixing the ticket machines, etc. etc. etc. are irrelevant. And, in an industry that has historically had issues with marginalised groups, I think that a gesture to show how they are committed to it is a good thing, even though I'm not sure about the choice of gesture.

(Not necessarily aimed at you @A0wen - just prompted by your post.)

I don’t think supporting inclusivity is compatible with opposing gay marriage. Opposing gay marriage is the opposite of being inclusive - why should marriage be exclusive to straight people?

 

[Man_with_beard]

If some of the people on here don’t like Pride trains, then don’t travel on them if they scare you so much.

A shame to see so many intolerant people.

These trains have a positive impact on LGBT+ staff and passengers. A friend of mine was having a really bad day following an argument with their Homophobic family, but saw a Pride liveried Thameslink train pass by them and it helped lift their spirits.

People who get offended by these trains simply are not worth listening too. It’s a shame they still have bitterness inside - perhaps they are just very repressed.

What about straight people who have bad days and struggle to feel accepted? It seems to be all about gays feeling accepted in society and having their spirits lifted but what about straight people suffering the same anxiety? Where are all the colour schemes and brightly coloured fire engines, trains and police cars for them to help lift their spirits? The gays would be up in arms, outraged and complaining left right and centre about being singled out if that ever happened.

 

[Russel]

Imagine being so insecure that a sticker frightens you. What are you scared of? What will the nasty sticker do to you? Are you worried you might catch "wokiness"?

What are you talking about, where did I say it frightened me or it made me feel insecure?

I said I don't see the point of it, which I don't, I also said the railway should be focusing on running trains, which it should.

 

[LowLevel]

What about straight people who have bad days and struggle to feel accepted? It seems to be all about gays feeling accepted in society and having their spirits lifted but what about straight people suffering the same anxiety? Where are all the colour schemes and brightly coloured fire engines, trains and police cars for them to help lift their spirits? The gays would be up in arms, outraged and complaining left right and centre about being singled out if that ever happened.

Are they feeling this way because they're straight? If so, it's a bit odd, given that it's the norm.

I've never yet had to deal with someone being abused because they're straight, happily. Something I can't say is the case for being gay.

 

[A0wen]

Where have "pride" crossings replaced zebra crossings, and are expected to be treated as zebra crossings?

All the "pride" crossings I have seen are actually controlled by traffic lights (either a pedestrian-operated crossing or controlled as part of a junction), which don't normally have any special markings (and certainly not black and white stripes as they are not zebra crossings).

Certainly there was one at my local hospital a few months back.

Notwithstanding - given the persistent claims of councils to be "cash strapped", I'm surprised they can find cash for things like this.

how much has the ticket price gone up because of this? Could you break it down for me?

( I suspect this whole thing cost less than the bill for tea bags across the company)

You may be correct on the second point - but it's not an easy sell when people believe train fares are too high, went up by a large amount quite recently and then they see things like this, which for many people are not relevant or of interest yet they see somehow the rail industry has the money to do these things.

It's the same as local councils doing it - they claim to be "cash strapped", push council tax up at the highest rate they can but then spend money on frivolous things. If the local councils were doing the basics well - like emptying bins, keeping streets clean, having well run child protection services etc, it would be different, but they don't. So spending money on peripheral things is a reasonable thing to criticise them on.

 

[Intercity110]

emptying bins, keeping streets clean

these are all sub-contracted to compaines such as veolia

 

[alex397]

What about straight people who have bad days and struggle to feel accepted? It seems to be all about gays feeling accepted in society and having their spirits lifted but what about straight people suffering the same anxiety? Where are all the colour schemes and brightly coloured fire engines, trains and police cars for them to help lift their spirits? The gays would be up in arms, outraged and complaining left right and centre about being singled out if that ever happened.

Is this some kind of parody post?

The fact you refer to “the gays” says all I need to know really. As far as I know, society doesn’t have a history of persecuting people for being straight. People are still violently attacked in the UK, to this very day, simply for being LGBT+. There is no pattern of straight people being violently assaulted just for being straight. Families don’t disown their relatives simply for being straight.

Pride trains are not about ‘shoving it in people’s faces’ which is a comment I often see, but about promoting acceptance of LGBT+ people and normalising it.

 

[Darandio]

If you're offended by SWR and their train, the problem is very much with you.

This in spades. I'm a heterosexual male and often refrain from wading into such threads, i'm probably not alone in often thinking it's not my place to.

But I seriously can't imagine how it feels being part of such a community that has to read the vitriol spouted over the last 5 pages. Embarrassing.

these are all sub-contracted to compaines such as veolia

Maybe where you are from. That's not the same for the majority of the country.

What about straight people who have bad days and struggle to feel accepted? It seems to be all about gays feeling accepted in society and having their spirits lifted but what about straight people suffering the same anxiety? Where are all the colour schemes and brightly coloured fire engines, trains and police cars for them to help lift their spirits? The gays would be up in arms, outraged and complaining left right and centre about being singled out if that ever happened.

Do you still live in the 1970's?

 

[AlterEgo]

This in spades. I'm a heterosexual male and often refrain from wading into such threads, i'm probably not alone in often thinking it's not my place to.

But I seriously can't imagine how it feels being part of such a community that has to read the vitriol spouted over the last 5 pages. Embarrassing.

It is pathetic.

I am not gay and I don't really "get" the whole Pride flag thing but then it isn't for me. Queer people I speak to are at worst indifferent to it and at best think it really improves their lives, so given that I don't think it's all a big political conspiracy against Big Straight Man, I don't see any reason to oppose it at all.

Weird hill for some posters to die on.

 

[DarloRich]

You may be correct on the second point - but it's not an easy sell when people believe train fares are too high, went up by a large amount quite recently and then they see things like this, which for many people are not relevant or of interest yet they see somehow the rail industry has the money to do these things.

It's the same as local councils doing it - they claim to be "cash strapped", push council tax up at the highest rate they can but then spend money on frivolous things. If the local councils were doing the basics well - like emptying bins, keeping streets clean, having well run child protection services etc, it would be different, but they don't. So spending money on peripheral things is a reasonable thing to criticise them on.

I guarantee you that even if all this stuff that clearly you detest stopped tomorrow and never restarted your fare or council tax would not drop by 1p. What would you complain about then? Tea bags? Coffee? Ties? Pens? Wrong sort of chairs in the office? Name badges? Fancy lap tops? Computer monitors that are too big? Newly painted town hall?

HONESTLY = this sort of stuff costs pennies in the grand scheme of things. It isn't worth worrying about. There are so many bigger fish to fry.

I said I don't see the point of it, which I don't, I also said the railway should be focusing on running trains, which it should.

Could you explain to me how (checks notes) putting a sticker on a train prevents the railway from focusing on running trains?

But I seriously can't imagine how it feels being part of such a community that has to read the vitriol spouted over the last 5 pages. Embarrassing.

Weird hill for some posters to die on.

agreed! the country is falling apart and people are conditioned by their chosen media/social media to complain more about a sticker than a corrupt government enacting bonkers policies.

I don't get how a simple sticker can cause such rage in some people!

 

[Dent]

Notwithstanding - given the persistent claims of councils to be "cash strapped", I'm surprised they can find cash for things like this.

First you complain that these "pride" crossings are making zebra crossings less visible, then when it is pointed out that they aren't you change your complaint to one of council spending. That sounds like you are just looking for excuses to complain about positive gestures of inclusiveness, and when one of your complaints turns out to be unwarranted you just switch to another excuse to complain.

In terms of a council's budget the scale of things the cost of painting a few coloured stripes is negligible.

 

[A0wen]

First you complain that these "pride" crossings are making zebra crossings less visible, then when it is pointed out that they aren't you change your complaint to one of council spending. That sounds like you are just looking for excuses to complain about positive gestures of inclusiveness, and when one of your complaints turns out to be unwarranted you just switch to another excuse to complain.

In terms of a council's budget the scale of things the cost of painting a few coloured stripes is negligible.

No - I cited the example at my local hospital.

The point about funding is most certainly relevant when public bodies claim to be too cash strapped to provide their statutory services - either they have spare cash or they don't. And if they do have have spare cash or cash is being spent on non statutory things, they should be reallocating funds to their statutory duties first and foremost.

I guarantee you that even if all this stuff that clearly you detest stopped tomorrow and never restarted your fare or council tax would not drop by 1p.

Which may be true - but it is the impression and message it gives. It says such organisations have spare cash whilst complaining they are short of funds and that justifies increases in council tax - that's not a good message or impression to give.

I deal with an LA outside of work and they are highly capable of wasting money and providing a poor service - fix those things first. For regular commuters I suspect they feel the same about their train operators - provide a clean, punctual, reliable service first. Then when you've got the basics right you can look at a bit of social virtue signalling.

 

[Dent]

No - I cited the example at my local hospital.

As you haven't specified where that it is is impossible to verify, but you referred to "a number of places". If there is actually only one then that is not "a number of places".

The point about funding is most certainly relevant when public bodies claim to be too cash strapped to provide their statutory services - either they have spare cash or they don't. And if they do have have spare cash or cash is being spent on non statutory things, they should be reallocating funds to their statutory duties first and foremost.

By how much do you really think statuary duties have been adversely affected by the costs of painting a few coloured lines? Bearing in mind that it will almost certainly have come out of a different budget to statuary duties anyway.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

This most of this thread bar a few posts is very negative towards everyone being accepting of all whoever they are.

Not one post has expressed that sentiment at all, they've just questioned whether this vinyl wrap achieves anything other than act as a bit of PR fluff for the operator.

Note to self: read the whole thread before making statements about the sentiments expressed therein.

 

[A0wen]

By how much do you really think statuary duties have been adversely affected by the costs of painting a few coloured lines? Bearing in mind that it will almost certainly have come out of a different budget to statuary duties anyway.

Even if it's "only £50" on such things such a body can't argue it's cash strapped if it can make such discretionary spending decisions

And ultimately all LAs have a single budget - it's how they allocate their budgets.

 

[cjmillsnun]

South Western Railway launches first intersex inclusive train​

Full article here: https://www.dorsetecho.co.uk/news/2...lway-launches-first-intersex-inclusive-train/

I like that. Really nice for SWR to show inclusion like that. Will have been fairly cheap to do and quick.

 

[Dent]

Even if it's "only £50" on such things such a body can't argue it's cash strapped if it can make such discretionary spending decisions

And ultimately all LAs have a single budget - it's how they allocate their budgets.

Are you being even-handed in going through the council's accounts and equally criticising all expenditure on anything other than statuary duties, or do you have a reason to single out inexpensive gestures of tolerance?

 

[cjmillsnun]

In the past many schools did force left-handed people to write with their right hand - probably a hangover from when left-handedness was seen as being a sign of the devil (hence sinister). King George VI was said to be one victim of that.

In the past yes. But awareness grew that this was the wrong thing to do and it was better for people to embrace being left handed. That awareness and tolerance people may call virtue signalling or being woke.

Seeing some of the predictable responses to this is depressing. 'Virtue signalling' and 'woke' consistently dragged up yet again. The thing is, like it or not, people who count themselves in the LGBTQI+ community often live their daily lives in fear, and if SWR helping to provide a safe and welcoming environment then that's to be supported. I have two children who fit into this community, a confident outgoing 19 year old daughter who came out at 14 who couldn't care less what people think and would give abuse back with interest, and an 18 year old son who came out to myself and his mother 2 years ago but has yet to develop the confidence to come out in public for fear of the daily nonsense that some members of public dish out.

If you're offended by SWR and their train, the problem is very much with you.

Agreed.

It’s more likely there are actually more, because the work environment has actually changed and the railway is a better place for women and queer people to work than it was.


Do you think the Met has become less socially aware and done less for marginalised communities since the late 1990s? I don’t think anyone would recognise that at all.

Really? You’re asking that this week.

It is against my Christian faith, yes.

Rubbish. Absolute drivel. You can choose your faith. People can’t choose their sexuality.

 

[Intercity110]

Really? You’re asking that this week.

what’s happening this week? Do they get an extra week as well as a whole month? Forgot about the baroness casey report, sorry

 

[AlterEgo]

Really? You’re asking that this week.

Of course the Met isn't the same as it was 25 years ago, especially when it comes to representation of minorities. How do you think they've managed to recruit so many minority officers? That it has serious and somewhat different structural problems is neither here nor there for the purposes of this thread.

 

[A0wen]

Are you being even-handed in going through the council's accounts and equally criticising all expenditure on anything other than statuary duties, or do you have a reason to single out inexpensive gestures of tolerance?

I'm critical of any non statutory spending given their failings in things like Child Services, which has a direct impact on schools, such as the one I'm a governor at.

So no hypocrisy here in case that's what you were insinuating.

 

[laseandre]

The absolute state of this thread shows exactly how far we have to go. Regarding some of the more reasonable points - I'm autistic and seeing a different coloured train doesn't "upset my routine", and I'm also trans and it feels good to be recognised, even in a small way by a corporation who are ultimately doing this because they see trans and intersex people as a viable marketable demographic, more than any real acceptance of us as people. But some other important points:

a) There are more important things to care about than the livery a train has.
b) So-called Christians should think carefully about their own religion's commandments (love thy neighbour, etc).
c) Calling things "woke" and "virtue signalling" are terrible right-wing talking points, spread in the UK by homophobic, transphobic groups paid for by US Republican interests (the remaining Koch brother, et al).
d) Screw JK Rowling.

 

[Intercity110]

Rubbish. Absolute drivel. You can choose your faith. People can’t choose their sexuality.

Even though his opinion is a bit stupid, he’s entitled to it.

 

[Andy Pacer]

What a bizarre write up that strikes me as significant overthinking.

What's a gay community? I am, such is life, a gay man. I met my partner in much the same way other humans do, socially, and 15 years ago we started going out. We have a house together and a couple of cars and we like visiting my family and treating my niece to presents.

I have some gay friends, but like society itself, the vast majority of our friends are heterosexual, and also men.

I'm not particularly bothered whether people approve of me, I don't particularly approve of organised religion, but I let people who practice that particular activity get on with it without any overt judgement or comment from me.

Live and let live seems to be the best way forward for me. To steal from the Bible "And as ye would that men should do to you, do ye also to them likewise".

That was carved into the lectern at the church I attended occasionally as a child before I decided religion wasn't for me and I've always rather liked it.

Be nice to other people, and don't be stupid about elements of their personality that are nothing to do with you. Also translatable as "Why in a world with God in it would they allow someone to massacre a load of kids and say "it's the way it is", but condemn someone to eternal damnation for what they do in their bedroom with another consenting adult?"

Very well said.

 

[Peter Sarf]

...........................

To give a practical example - a number of places have taken to painting rainbow 'zebra' crossings. But people with sight impediments this makes it more difficult for them to use these crossings as they can't make out the contrasting colours in the way they can when it's simple black and white. So surely, the point should be about ensuring people can access and use these things ? The same is true of people who use assistive technologies on websites - painting such websites in 'rainbow' colours can often make it more difficult for them to use - so why should somebody who has a physical disability find their ability to access and use certain things is made harder by measures such as these ?

I have encountered these on Croydon roads several times and I think Cardiff as well. I have been wondering what they are, which makes them a kind of distraction for motorists. I get pre-occupied with whether I have transgressed a restriction. Croydon has done some other patterns for crossings as well. But I think for road markings this is very inappropriate.

My only real problem with it all is that it is really, really, ugly, and seems to have broken the concept.
No one can be offended by a pretty rainbow, and its a clear symbol of tolerance for diversity. But seeing as the individual colours of the rainbow flag are not for any one particular group why do they have to deface it with the horrible chevrons etc? Adding bits for specific groups seems contra to the concept to me. And how specific are we going to get, every individual person's specific characteristics?

It seems to define people by one characteristic, which is surely the opposite of a general acceptance of diversity.

Where does it all end, more and more visual "noise".

What - intolerant because they don't like things which many consider personal and private being foisted on them ?

And as I've pointed out - this incessant painting things in rainbow colours does have other, detrimental consequences for example those with sight issues. So who's "rights" are more important ? A partially sighted person's ability to safely cross a road or a LGBTQIA+'s person to have their "identity" celebrated ?




Slightly OT - but this does deserve comment. I understand where @davews is coming from. However as a Christian, my take on it is I condemn the sin, not the sinner. So it then comes down to how people choose to live their lives, compared to the teachings of the Bible. So endeavouring to avoid sin - which can take many forms.


Or there speaks a man who recognises that, unfortunately, in this day and age, if you say something which doesn't "conform" to the supposedly "progressive" social norms, can lead to abuse, social media pile ons (see JK Rowling) or even a visit from the plod because somebody was "offended" by what was said. For a supposedly "progressive" country, we're starting to give some surprisingly regressive places a run for their money in the tolerance stakes. Tolerance is a two way street - many seem to overlook that.

Further more being intersex is not something one can choose to be. They are born with genitalia that does not fit what people think of as normal. It is not an activity, lifestyle, belief or preference that the person has arrived at. It is rather more akin to having freckles or ginger hair, less obvious but more embarrassing (being "private parts").

My feelings on the matter is that we're increasingly confusing what people do in their personal life with what happens when they are at work, and that's not a good trend. Characteristics like sexuality, gender, skin colour, religion, etc. etc. should be totally indifferent to an employer. Employers should hire/fire/treat people based on their aptitude and abilities. If they are discriminating against certain groups of people due to characteristics rather than ability, that is very wrong, and should be exposed and stopped. Equally if there is a workplace culture that does so, that should also be exposed and stopped.

My fear is this leads to cries of positive discrimination. And I do understand prejudice - 35 tears ago I learnt to keep by abnormality to myself (trainspotter). Before that my parents thought I would grow out of it, I was just sad I did not discover my fondness earlier (missed out on the hydraulics of the Western Region).

But this just seems oddly specific to me. Should we also have a train painted with verses from the Koran, staffed only by Muslims? How about a 'Catholic' train, with crucifixes painted on the outside, only staffed by Catholics? Or a train painted black, only staffed by black people? Or a train only staffed by people with a certain disability? Or are we actually saying that in the opinion of this company that some 'minorities' and specific characteristics are more important than others?

This is the thing for me. Its is all going to get very complicated. It is not fair why can my minority interest/group be reflected.

What difference does it make to me if the driver of my train is gay, trans, intersex, black, a Jew, has six toes, whatever? I don't need to know and I don't particularly want to know. All I care is that they are good at driving the train.

This is very true. Boasting of supporting one minority grates with me as it has the potential to exclude others.

How are "intersex" people attacked in the street with their "intersexuality" as a factor unless they are advertising that they are intersex? I don't go down the street waving a flag that I am heterosexual, and if I did I expect it would also attract some unwelcome attention (but not from women, sadly). If you mean just walking along with another man, I have done that with just friends many times and have never been attacked.

I have however been ridiculed and received plenty of other negative reactions for being hetero (or, perhaps worse, assumed to be asexual). Having done well academically when younger, people regarded me as the "brains" of my circle, and therefore in their eyes not a candidate for any form of romance, because that would have been at odds with their image of me. For example no third person ever introduced me to a girl of my own age.

Gays have it much easier in some ways, and one way is to do with the sex ratio. There are now millions of young heterosexual incels in Western society (I'm not one BTW) because large numbers of women in their 20's and 30's drop out of the dating game after having a child and cannot afford babysitters. Some women intend to have flings for a couple of years and then turn their back on any further relationship in favour of their career, or they simply find men a nuiscance. Meanwhile the fathers of the "fatherless" babies have dumped the mother and are back in the dating game, footloose and fancy-free - hence the skewed sex ratio among potentially sexually active heterosexuals. On every occasion I have been in a room socially, young women have been out numbered by young men by at least 4:1, not that I have even been invited to such occasions very often.

On the other hand, a sex ratio is not an issue in a gay community - in any group of gays all of them seeking a partner could find one, except possibly for just one if there is an odd number.

Interesting.

Well I for one have always been shy of showing my feelings to women because I fear an adverse reaction. That was probably caused by experiences with a lesbian teacher who needed someone to belittle. Coupled with lack of confidence - well no bully picks on a confident person do they !.

On the other hand some guys do get rather to overpowering.

..........................................

But that ignores the fact that doing this could put other people off. Maybe we're saying some minorities are more important than others - that attracting LGBTQ+ employees is more important than attracting devout Christians or Muslims, for example - and *maybe* that's actually not an unreasonable thing to do - but let's not pretend we're 'welcoming all' and 'supporting all' by doing this sort of thing. The way to 'welcome all' and 'support all' is to not draw attention to, and promote, characteristics that are irrelevant to the job at hand.

You say I'm being silly, but I see absolutely no difference between this train, and having a 'Catholic' train with crucifixies painted on the outside. What is the difference, other than that virtue signalling about LGBTQ+ inclusivity is currently fashionable and virtue signalling about Catholic inclusivity isn't?

Yes, where does it all end.

Where have "pride" crossings replaced zebra crossings, and are expected to be treated as zebra crossings?

All the "pride" crossings I have seen are actually controlled by traffic lights (either a pedestrian-operated crossing or controlled as part of a junction), which don't normally have any special markings (and certainly not black and white stripes as they are not zebra crossings).

You might be right. The ones I can recall are crossings that have traffic lights but no lights for the pedestrian. As a pedestrian I refrain from treating them as a zebra crossing in case a car driver does not see them as any type of crossing. As a car driver I stop incase the pedestrian is going to push their luck (and I have had the complaints from behind).

Is this some kind of parody post?

The fact you refer to “the gays” says all I need to know really. As far as I know, society doesn’t have a history of persecuting people for being straight. People are still violently attacked in the UK, to this very day, simply for being LGBT+. There is no pattern of straight people being violently assaulted just for being straight. Families don’t disown their relatives simply for being straight.

Pride trains are not about ‘shoving it in people’s faces’ which is a comment I often see, but about promoting acceptance of LGBT+ people and normalising it.

Oh I got persecuted for being normal - its about bullies and victims. The fact a victim might belong to a minority is one excuse but its the perceived lack of confidence that is also a factor.

---

I would add there is not much nastiness on this thread against anyone. It is just varying levels of understanding and/or tolerance of signalling. For me I prefer to accept everybody that does not hurt me, others, wildlife or the planet. But I could do without the surplus noise and confusion.

 

[Anonymous10]

It is against my Christian faith, yes.

This is a very hardline concept there is stuff many of us dislike or may find offensive such as calling people from Wales taff or even using the English name of our nation. For those who'd like to know it's cymru for Wales and cymraeg for welsh. But that's beside its about toleration and at nothing else just appreciate the colours

 

[A0wen]

The absolute state of this thread shows exactly how far we have to go. Regarding some of the more reasonable points - I'm autistic and seeing a different coloured train doesn't "upset my routine", and I'm also trans and it feels good to be recognised, even in a small way by a corporation who are ultimately doing this because they see trans and intersex people as a viable marketable demographic, more than any real acceptance of us as people. But some other important points:

a) There are more important things to care about than the livery a train has.
b) So-called Christians should think carefully about their own religion's commandments (love thy neighbour, etc).
c) Calling things "woke" and "virtue signalling" are terrible right-wing talking points, spread in the UK by homophobic, transphobic groups paid for by US Republican interests (the remaining Koch brother, et al).
d) Screw JK Rowling.

Bit in bold - perhaps non Christians could actually study the Bible in its entirety and understand what it says, rather than just selectively picking the odd verse which seems to support their argument so they can finger point at Christians they believe are not espousing said values ?

 

[laseandre]

Bit in bold - perhaps non Christians could actually study the Bible in its entirety and understand what it says, rather than just selectively picking the odd verse which seems to support their argument so they can finger point at Christians they believe are not espousing said values ?

I'll stop selectively quoting it to support my beliefs when you do.

 

[A0wen]

I'll stop selectively quoting it to support my beliefs when you do.

Where have I selectively quoted the Bible ? Which of my posts did that ?

 

[alxndr]

Regarding some of the more reasonable points - I'm autistic and seeing a different coloured train doesn't "upset my routine", and I'm also trans and it feels good to be recognised, even in a small way by a corporation who are ultimately doing this because they see trans and intersex people as a viable marketable demographic, more than any real acceptance of us as people.

Agreed. I'm also autistic, trans, and while I don't label my sexuality, I'm in a relationship which is seen by the rest of the world as "gay". I don't get upset by seeing a different coloured train (whether that's a rainbow livery or any other of the variety of one-off liveries). The fact that it's a rainbow doesn't particularly interest me, other than recognising that we've shifted from no-one talking about LGBT people to companies trying to use us to show themselves in a positive light. Whether that type of marketing is exploitive or wasteful is another matter, but it does very nicely to remind me that at least some steps towards a more accepting society have been made.

Further more being intersex is not something one can choose to be. They are born with genitalia that does not fit what people think of as normal. It is not an activity, lifestyle, belief or preference that the person has arrived at. It is rather more akin to having freckles or ginger hair, less obvious but more embarrassing (being "private parts").

Nor can people choose to be LGBT. The only difference in this regard is that intersex conditions are easier to medically quantify.

And I do understand prejudice - 35 tears ago I learnt to keep by abnormality to myself (trainspotter). Before that my parents thought I would grow out of it, I was just sad I did not discover my fondness earlier (missed out on the hydraulics of the Western Region).

Prejudice for being a trainspotter isn't quite in the same magnitude as transphobia or homophobia...