Intersex Train on SWR

[Peter Sarf]

Could be more due to the need to recruit from a wider labour pool than before as the grumpy old white men retire or die off.
It's not true for every employer. I remember a huge furore over the Metropolitan Police's mishandling of the stabbing of that poor black lad in south-east London back in the 1990s - accusations of 'institutional racism and so on. For a time, things did seem to improve with senior policemen launching campaigns to recruit more people from ethnic minorities etc. But now, over 30 years on, it seems the old racist, mysogenist 'canteen culture' reasserted itself once the heat was off.

My bold. - Carefull that is a bit of a label for us old white males. EDIT - Not having a go at you but it sums up something. /EDIT

Some of what we see as prejudice is difficult to dissolve and other parts are not prejudice. For example blacks are more often targeted by police for searches for knives. There are regular complaints about that. But I ask - is that because most stabbings are committed by blacks ?. Two things were pointed out by a black person I asked that to - The police do not stop enough young black males and that most victims of stabbing are black. He said many black people feel let down by the police NOT enforcing laws enough within the black community. He also said he believed a lot of it was educated blacks vs uneducated blacks. Are the police hamstrung by the minority or by the over politically correct majority ?

My point is some things that happen are not prejudice but a simple reaction to reality. However there is also prejudice about prejudice. So "grumpy old white men" is a dangerous label to apply to us senior gents. Not pulling you up on it but it is an example of how we can tie ourselves up in knots.

 

[Doctor Fegg]

Seeing some of the predictable responses to this is depressing. 'Virtue signalling' and 'woke' consistently dragged up yet again. The thing is, like it or not, people who count themselves in the LGBTQI+ community often live their daily lives in fear, and if SWR helping to provide a safe and welcoming environment then that's to be supported. I have two children who fit into this community, a confident outgoing 19 year old daughter who came out at 14 who couldn't care less what people think and would give abuse back with interest, and an 18 year old son who came out to myself and his mother 2 years ago but has yet to develop the confidence to come out in public for fear of the daily nonsense that some members of public dish out.

If you're offended by SWR and their train, the problem is very much with you.

Very much this.

I would be interested to know what the response would be on this forum if SWR reliveried a train in a dedicated autism livery.

 

[AlterEgo]

Are there actually more or is it just that the wider change in society has had them feel more comfortable with being themselves?

It’s more likely there are actually more, because the work environment has actually changed and the railway is a better place for women and queer people to work than it was.

Could be more due to the need to recruit from a wider labour pool than before as the grumpy old white men retire or die off.
It's not true for every employer. I remember a huge furore over the Metropolitan Police's mishandling of the stabbing of that poor black lad in south-east London back in the 1990s - accusations of 'institutional racism and so on. For a time, things did seem to improve with senior policemen launching campaigns to recruit more people from ethnic minorities etc. But now, over 30 years on, it seems the old racist, mysogenist 'canteen culture' reasserted itself once the heat was off.

Do you think the Met has become less socially aware and done less for marginalised communities since the late 1990s? I don’t think anyone would recognise that at all.

 

[A0wen]

I prefer trains that run on time and I like affordable fares. I'm not sure why increasingly niche, tiny demographics need such broad-brush representation.

If the various issues with railway operations were solved in this country then fair enough, but this is window dressing.

I couldn't have put it better myself.

If you were a marginalised member of that 'niche, tiny demographic' then you might think otherwise. Try other people's shoes sometimes, it's eye opening.

So back in the 70s or 80s when all the trains were painted Blue and Grey they somehow excluded or marginalised those who were gay, lesbian or bisexual for example ?

This is virtue signalling. Nothing more, nothing less.

I would be interested to know what the response would be on this forum if SWR reliveried a train in a dedicated autism livery.

Well, if you know anything about autism, you'd know that keeping the trains in a consistent livery would probably be more accommodating for them, whereas painting them in different, one off liveries like this is likely to cause some autistics more of a problem.

 

[lachlan]

I couldn't have put it better myself.



So back in the 70s or 80s when all the trains were painted Blue and Grey they somehow excluded or marginalised those who were gay, lesbian or bisexual for example ?

This is virtue signalling. Nothing more, nothing less.

Perhaps you feel indifferent to it. Personally I appreciate what my workplace does for LGBT and I feel pride in wearing a rainbow badge on my lanyard. It helps me feel confident as someone new to the community. If I worked on the railway I’d be chuffed to see the occasional rainbow train.

 

[Peter Sarf]

Are there actually more or is it just that the wider change in society has had them feel more comfortable with being themselves?

I agree - it is far more likely that they have come out so to speak. And that can be attributed to a general change in societies' view of minorities rather than a change in views about the specific minority.

Seeing some of the predictable responses to this is depressing. 'Virtue signalling' and 'woke' consistently dragged up yet again. The thing is, like it or not, people who count themselves in the LGBTQI+ community often live their daily lives in fear, and if SWR helping to provide a safe and welcoming environment then that's to be supported. I have two children who fit into this community, a confident outgoing 19 year old daughter who came out at 14 who couldn't care less what people think and would give abuse back with interest, and an 18 year old son who came out to myself and his mother 2 years ago but has yet to develop the confidence to come out in public for fear of the daily nonsense that some members of public dish out.

If you're offended by SWR and their train, the problem is very much with you.

There is a risk of people suffering from a fatigue of all this championing of minorities. I worry about calling them a minority after all they might be a majority !. Certainly there seems a possibility that a majority of people could identify with one minority or another. Begs the question are the norm actually a minority ?. What is the norm ?. Go figure and who cares - we are not all the same - can we live with it or would we really like everyone to be IDENTICAL.

I know we are all different and I don't care. Except, if I think about it, I prefer the lack of uniformity. But there are those "bullies" who need to bully and they will do that regardless of what the difference is. There are also those who are laballed as a bully (or whatever) who have a strong character or otherwise have an unfortunate tone of voice that they cannot change - would it be prejudice to expect them to change or hide ?. People also have a habitual need to "identify" so groups form - even as far as ghetto-ism. We need to stop getting carried away with one type of difference or another. We need to focus on the general problem of prejudice but without narrowing it down to individual examples. Only then will we solve the problem.

It’s more likely there are actually more, because the work environment has actually changed and the railway is a better place for women and queer people to work than it was.


Do you think the Met has become less socially aware and done less for marginalised communities since the late 1990s? I don’t think anyone would recognise that at all.

Actually I suspect there were always more minorities around but nowadays they are more likely to come out/admit-it/accept-it/measure-it/recognise-it.

Your are correct. Furthermore I think the police have improved but there is a way to go. Things might even appear worse now but can put that down to less effort in hiding issues and more publicity. Note there will always be bad apples in the bunch but how those apples are identified and thrown out needs to always improve.

I couldn't have put it better myself.



So back in the 70s or 80s when all the trains were painted Blue and Grey they somehow excluded or marginalised those who were gay, lesbian or bisexual for example ?

This is virtue signalling. Nothing more, nothing less.



Well, if you know anything about autism, you'd know that keeping the trains in a consistent livery would probably be more accommodating for them, whereas painting them in different, one off liveries like this is likely to cause some autistics more of a problem.

That is my understanding of autism as well.

 

[Magdalia]

So back in the 70s or 80s when all the trains were painted Blue and Grey they somehow excluded or marginalised those who were gay, lesbian or bisexual for example ?

In the 70s and 80s gay, lesbian, bisexual and trans people were excluded from nearly all of society, kept out by bullying, harassment, blackmail and violence.

 

[InkyScrolls]

In the 70s and 80s gay, lesbian, bisexual and trans people were excluded from nearly all of society, kept out by bullying, harassment, blackmail and violence.

But that had nothing to do with the livery of a train, did it?

 

[lachlan]

I couldn't have put it better myself.



So back in the 70s or 80s when all the trains were painted Blue and Grey they somehow excluded or marginalised those who were gay, lesbian or bisexual for example ?

This is virtue signalling. Nothing more, nothing less.



Well, if you know anything about autism, you'd know that keeping the trains in a consistent livery would probably be more accommodating for them, whereas painting them in different, one off liveries like this is likely to cause some autistics more of a problem.

If you knew anything about autism you’d know no two autistics are the same and you wouldn’t make such sweeping statements.

 

[43096]

It’s more likely there are actually more, because the work environment has actually changed and the railway is a better place for women and queer people to work than it was.

Some facts would be useful rather than “likely”.

 

[ValleyLines142]

Do we have confirmation it is this unit?

Yes, in another thread.

 

[AlterEgo]

Some facts would be useful rather than “likely”.

I’ve never met anyone queer and who’d be in a position to know, who’s ever told me the railway isn’t a better place to work than it was 20 years ago.

Either way, it’s one of two things. There are more queer people attracted to work on the railway or there has always been the same number, but repressed by the work culture and more likely to be visible. It seems much more likely it’s the former, because the railway was for a long time a semi-closed shop with much less open recruitment practices.

 

[Andy Pacer]

Yes, in another thread.

Thanks for that. I was scouring this thread to see if anyone had answered your original query

 

[Howardh]

As someone who the paintwork is aimed at, I'd say "thank you very much, really appreciated and all that, but I'd rather have trains cheap and on time and somewhere in stations where people of all genders/colours/religions/whatever can sit in warmth and safety". Rather like if I'm on a train it's nice to see the guard walking up and down occasionally. Much prefer that than fancy paintwork, just in case a fellow traveller is being obnoxious.

 

[A0wen]

If you knew anything about autism you’d know no two autistics are the same and you wouldn’t make such sweeping statements.

Could I suggest you re-read what I posted. I was very careful about what I wrote - which is why I didn't use the word "all". I'm fully aware that autism takes many forms, but that does not remove the point that there are certain behaviours or traits which are commonly found - as this website points out https://thespectrum.org.au/autism-diagnosis/checklist-adults/

"enjoy consistent routine and schedules and get upset or anxious should that routine or schedule be changed."

Perhaps you feel indifferent to it. Personally I appreciate what my workplace does for LGBT and I feel pride in wearing a rainbow badge on my lanyard. It helps me feel confident as someone new to the community. If I worked on the railway I’d be chuffed to see the occasional rainbow train.

You miss the point - many workplaces achieve the same things without the need to put rainbow flags up or repainting their vehicle.

But that had nothing to do with the livery of a train, did it?

Exactly the point.

And there's an interesting point to all of this - at what point do one person's rights over-rule another.

To give a practical example - a number of places have taken to painting rainbow 'zebra' crossings. But people with sight impediments this makes it more difficult for them to use these crossings as they can't make out the contrasting colours in the way they can when it's simple black and white. So surely, the point should be about ensuring people can access and use these things ? The same is true of people who use assistive technologies on websites - painting such websites in 'rainbow' colours can often make it more difficult for them to use - so why should somebody who has a physical disability find their ability to access and use certain things is made harder by measures such as these ?

 

[lachlan]

Could I suggest you re-read what I posted. I was very careful about what I wrote - which is why I didn't use the word "all". I'm fully aware that autism takes many forms, but that does not remove the point that there are certain behaviours or traits which are commonly found - as this website points out https://thespectrum.org.au/autism-diagnosis/checklist-adults/

"enjoy consistent routine and schedules and get upset or anxious should that routine or schedule be changed."



You miss the point - many workplaces achieve the same things without the need to put rainbow flags up or repainting their vehicle.


Exactly the point.

And there's an interesting point to all of this - at what point do one person's rights over-rule another.

To give a practical example - a number of places have taken to painting rainbow 'zebra' crossings. But people with sight impediments this makes it more difficult for them to use these crossings as they can't make out the contrasting colours in the way they can when it's simple black and white. So surely, the point should be about ensuring people can access and use these things ? The same is true of people who use assistive technologies on websites - painting such websites in 'rainbow' colours can often make it more difficult for them to use - so why should somebody who has a physical disability find their ability to access and use certain things is made harder by measures such as these ?

Obviously access for disabled people is more important than adding pride flags to things and I would hope disabled people were consulted before decisions like adding rainbow crossings were made - perhaps there weren’t adequate consultations. This doesn’t make “accessibility” a blanket reason for opposing any and all Pride additions.

Feels like a moot point because you can’t rely on trains and buses to have a particular livery anyway. Where I am you don’t know whether your Great Western Railway train will be green or blue. First Aberdeen were useless at putting the correct buses on the correct routes and so I (a partially sighted person) knew I couldn’t rely on painted numbers on bus sides.

As for painting vehicles, the railway is perhaps in a unique position that trains are in view of many different people and so I think it is a good oppurtunity to use trains for display purposes. There’s a British Transport Police ScotRail train, I don’t remember anyone complaining about that?

 

[WAB]

the recent Casey Report on the Metropolitan Police has shone a spotlight on what it is like in an institution that does not embrace diversity and inclusion, and every sane employer is going to want to differentiate themselves from that.

Only last week we were shocked about a report that detailed prejudicial behaviour in the Met Police and yet here we see an initiative to help stop such behaviour in another organisation and what is the result - anger from some people.

But they painted a panda car in rainbow colours for Pride, so they must be diverse and inclusive?

 

[Meerkat]

My only real problem with it all is that it is really, really, ugly, and seems to have broken the concept.
No one can be offended by a pretty rainbow, and its a clear symbol of tolerance for diversity. But seeing as the individual colours of the rainbow flag are not for any one particular group why do they have to deface it with the horrible chevrons etc? Adding bits for specific groups seems contra to the concept to me. And how specific are we going to get, every individual person's specific characteristics?

It seems to define people by one characteristic, which is surely the opposite of a general acceptance of diversity.

 

[WAB]

No one can be offended by a pretty rainbow, and its a clear symbol of tolerance for diversity. But seeing as the individual colours of the rainbow flag are not for any one particular group why do they have to deface it with the horrible chevrons etc? Adding bits for specific groups seems contra to the concept to me. And how specific are we going to get, every individual person's specific characteristics?

The progress pride flag (as shown here) is not universally appreciated within the community.

 

[alex397]

If some of the people on here don’t like Pride trains, then don’t travel on them if they scare you so much.

A shame to see so many intolerant people.

These trains have a positive impact on LGBT+ staff and passengers. A friend of mine was having a really bad day following an argument with their Homophobic family, but saw a Pride liveried Thameslink train pass by them and it helped lift their spirits.

People who get offended by these trains simply are not worth listening too. It’s a shame they still have bitterness inside - perhaps they are just very repressed.

 

[Nick Ashwell]

The progress pride flag (as shown here) is not universally appreciated within the community.

Mainly because certain members are transphobic but hey ho

 

[davews]

Ok we all have different views. Some of you may appreciate whet SWR are doing for your segment of community. However you also have to consider all of those, like me, who are hugely offended by the whole LGBT concept. As a member of the Methodist Church I am seriously considering resigning from my church after they have now approved same sex marriage. Please bear us in mind when you comment, we do not share your views, and for an inclusive society the views of all should be accepted. Probably best to close the thread before it gets even more personal.

 

[ainsworth74]

However you also have to consider all of those, like me, who are hugely offended by the whole LGBT concept.

I'm sorry, are you saying that you're "offended" that gay people (for instance) exist at all?

 

[davews]

It is against my Christian faith, yes.

 

[AlterEgo]

Ok we all have different views. Some of you may appreciate whet SWR are doing for your segment of community. However you also have to consider all of those, like me, who are hugely offended by the whole LGBT concept.

What would "consideration" mean in this concept to you, when talking about the vinyl on a train?

As a member of the Methodist Church I am seriously considering resigning from my church after they have now approved same sex marriage.

It's good that you're standing up for your principles, and I mean that unconditionally. If people have principles, even if I disagree with them, I'd rather they state them and act in accordance with those principles.

Please bear us in mind when you comment, we do not share your views, and for an inclusive society the views of all should be accepted.

I don't think anyone has said anything about Methodists here, although a few things have been said about homophobes and transphobes.

Nobody is trying to make you share their view. You're entitled to be a Methodist, to oppose gay marriage, and to say in public (albeit anonymously, hey ho!) that you don't like the "LGBT concept".

That's your view and you're entitled to it, but you should be aware it is a minority view and, indeed, nobody else has to agree to your view, or to accommodate your dislike.

Probably best to close the thread before it gets even more personal.

There speaks a man with confidence in his worldview(!).

It is against my Christian faith, yes.

Great! Nobody here is stopping you from having this view or practising your religion or faith in Jesus the way you feel appropriate.

 

[Magdalia]

But that had nothing to do with the livery of a train, did it?

Blue and grey trains are an excellent metaphor for the 70s and 80s: male domination, grey uniformity and absence of diversity.

 

[66701GBRF]

If some of the people on here don’t like Pride trains, then don’t travel on them if they scare you so much.

A shame to see so many intolerant people.

These trains have a positive impact on LGBT+ staff and passengers. A friend of mine was having a really bad day following an argument with their Homophobic family, but saw a Pride liveried Thameslink train pass by them and it helped lift their spirits.

People who get offended by these trains simply are not worth listening too. It’s a shame they still have bitterness inside - perhaps they are just very repressed.

Intolerant, you mean like your post and its intolerance of other peoples differing opinions?

 

[Magdalia]

But they painted a panda car in rainbow colours for Pride, so they must be diverse and inclusive?

Necessary but not sufficient.

 

[alxndr]

Ridiculous. This sort of thing will only tend to polarise people. If intersex people want to get on with doing their thing, then get on with it. They now have all their legal rights, no need to wave flags in public about it.

This sums up one of the reasons why raising awareness of intersex issues is useful and necessary. Not all intersex people know that they are, in some people it isn't identified until it causes issues later in life (e.g. trying for a child) or it was noticed at birth and surgery was performed that their parents never told them about due to stigma. The problems that intersex people face are not the same as those that LGBT people face and it is not correct to just say that "they have all their legal rights" as in some respects they don't.

There is a long history, and it still occurs, that surgery is performed on intersex children in early childhood solely for the purpose of constructing "normal" looking genitals. These are often decisions made in emotionally fraught circumstances and parents are likely to just follow the guidance of doctors.

Once a gender has been decided for the child, if this does not turn out to be the correct decision, then the only way to access further surgery and amend legal documents is through the same pathways as for transgender people. This is a lengthy and arduous process that cannot be bypassed even when there is medical evidence that a person is intersex.

No. But most of us in society are unaware of the prejudice intersex people might get.

I presume that, compared to gender identity, intersex is harder to hide. I am thinking of, for example changing rooms in schools/swimming-pools.
Someone who is biologically male but feels they are female in their mind can hide it by going to the male changing rooms.
Someone with non binary genitalia has no choice as the conflict is plain to see.
Is that right ?.

Not necessarily. Some people don't know until later in life, possibly when trying for a child, when undergoing other medical treatment, or when a partner notices that something is different to usual. Unlike transgender people though, intersex people may have additional emotional problems to tackle if they've undergone surgery as a child to "fix" their genitals or had their intersex condition hidden from them due to stigma.

The progress pride flag (as shown here) is not universally appreciated within the community.

Conversely it has become necessary because some groups of the community are not welcomed by others. If I see a pride flag then maybe that group is supportive of trans people, but maybe they aren't. If I see a progress flag then the odds that they will support trans people are increased because they've gone out of their way to use that flag rather than the more common simple rainbow.

I presume this is the current Pride-liveried Desiro (444019), just with further enhanced Intersex-branding?

Now that it's been confirmed that it is the same unit, what is the lifespan of a vinyl livery?

 

[A0wen]

If some of the people on here don’t like Pride trains, then don’t travel on them if they scare you so much.

A shame to see so many intolerant people.

What - intolerant because they don't like things which many consider personal and private being foisted on them ?

And as I've pointed out - this incessant painting things in rainbow colours does have other, detrimental consequences for example those with sight issues. So who's "rights" are more important ? A partially sighted person's ability to safely cross a road or a LGBTQIA+'s person to have their "identity" celebrated ?

Ok we all have different views. Some of you may appreciate whet SWR are doing for your segment of community. However you also have to consider all of those, like me, who are hugely offended by the whole LGBT concept. As a member of the Methodist Church I am seriously considering resigning from my church after they have now approved same sex marriage. Please bear us in mind when you comment, we do not share your views, and for an inclusive society the views of all should be accepted. Probably best to close the thread before it gets even more personal.

I'm sorry, are you saying that you're "offended" that gay people (for instance) exist at all?

It is against my Christian faith, yes.

Slightly OT - but this does deserve comment. I understand where @davews is coming from. However as a Christian, my take on it is I condemn the sin, not the sinner. So it then comes down to how people choose to live their lives, compared to the teachings of the Bible. So endeavouring to avoid sin - which can take many forms.

There speaks a man with confidence in his worldview(!).

Or there speaks a man who recognises that, unfortunately, in this day and age, if you say something which doesn't "conform" to the supposedly "progressive" social norms, can lead to abuse, social media pile ons (see JK Rowling) or even a visit from the plod because somebody was "offended" by what was said. For a supposedly "progressive" country, we're starting to give some surprisingly regressive places a run for their money in the tolerance stakes. Tolerance is a two way street - many seem to overlook that.