Interviewed under Caution for wrong travel card

[Hooked_HT]

Hi All,


I have unfortunately messed up myself with SWT and need help and apologies for long post.


At the outset I acknowledge that I have done a blunder knowingly or unknowingly (as that does not matter) and now am paying for that.


Below are my details.


Since June 2017 and till June 2018 I was travelling from station A (Zone5) to station B (Zone4) via Clapham Junction using Paper monthly travel card it was having written “monthly travel card from A to B”. It was always a hassle to renew this paper travel card as I had to wait in queue at station. One of my friend advised that I can put my same monthly card on my oyster and can then renew it online without need to wait at station and in addition to that I will also get a free bus ride as oyster card is valid for buses everywhere if it has a travel card loaded.


I took this advice literally (which I now regret deeply) and without checking much went to ticket window and asked them to load travel card on my oyster. Officer mentioned that I need to do it at self-servicing machine. I followed as suggested and bought monthly travel card loaded on oyster between Zone 5 and Zone 4 by literally taking reference from my paper travel card. While buying I found monthly oyster travel card was £14 cheaper than my paper based travel card. I just thought why so and I got reason in my head may be companies want to promote oyster (paperless) and that can be the reason.


So from next travel I started using my oyster monthly travel card in the same way as I was using paper travel card as in my mind it was exactly like paper travel card. Also as I was using paper travel card to open station barriers only and was not using it were there were no barriers. I kept doing same i.e. always touched in at source station A (it had barriers) and never touched out at destination station B (it had no barriers) and vice versa on return as I was doing with paper travel card. I travelled like this almost daily from A (Zone5) to B (Zone4) via Clapham Junction for 4-5 months.


During this 4-5 month period I was multiple times asked to show my ticket at below stations but was not alerted or told there is something wrong with my travel card

1. Clapham Junction (in morning and in evenings at platform bridge. Can remember latest date when I was told it is good in evening)
2. At station B in mornings (even during checks I did not touch out as it was not at all in my mind because for me it was like paper travel card)
3. During my train journey from Clapham Junction to Station B and vice versa

Last week on XX/11/2018 when I came from station A (Zone5 and touched in as routine) I was changing platform in morning at Clapham Junction and my ticket was checked by SWT staff and I was told all good. Then in evening on the same date, when I was coming back from station B (Zone 4 and not touched in/out as routine) I was again stopped at Clapham Junction platform bridge. This time I was told that my ticket is not valid in Zone 3. I was surprised and thought there is some confusion with the staff, as till now my ticket was always valid and I am carrying the same ticket.


Then I realized that I was speaking to RPI and he advised me that my ticket is not valid in Zone 3 and I am travelling with invalid ticket. I was still not able to make out what is happening and he then interviewed under caution. I was bit upset but answered his all questions with honesty and calmly. He asked me was I going to pay my due fare if I was not checked, I said no as I was of impression my ticket is correct and valid. I told him how my tickets were checked multiple times and I had no clue I am using wrong ticket. He said he will mention that in the interview which he did. Multiple times RPI asked me if I want to leave I can and need not to answer his questions, but I said no I will answer all your questions and then only go. He finished interview and then I asked can he kindly let me know what is correct ticket for me and he mentioned I should get a travel card for zones 2, 3, 4, 5. I also asked him next steps and he mentioned TOC will write to me.


After I finished my interview I started googling and that is when my world shattered and I realized in what mess I have landed. The more I read the more worried I got. As I mentioned I am wrong as I should have not treated oyster travel card 100% same as that of paper travel card and should have done my homework before using it. I am in London from last 5-6 years and have very rarely used oyster card but with PAYG credit. This was first time in my life I have loaded monthly travel card on it. Got same wrong on day 1 and landed in this trouble. I then immediately after reaching home bought the correct travel card for zone 2, 3, 4, 5 as was mentioned by RPI and also made sure it is correct by going through information (which unfortunately I have not done earlier). I also realized the correct monthly cost of correct card is £30 more.


I honestly was never intending to save money by getting wrong card but am not sure how to prove it. Now am worried what will happen and who will believe me. I still am struggling to understand how nobody in checking staff detected that I was using wrong travel card during this 4-5 months period when it was multiple times checked.


Will appreciate your help and advice on this. I have not yet heard back from TOC but soon I will be getting a letter. I want to do anything to settle this out of court as criminal record will be devastating for my job and my normal life.

Thanks

 

[furlong]

If you touch in and have sufficient PAYG credit on the card, you can travel outside zones 4 and 5 provided you touch out at the end of your journey. This is why the checks when travelling from station A would have found everything OK - they assumed you would touch out at station B and then the extra part of the fare would be deducted from the PAYG balance. In the other direction, you had not touched in, were outside the zones of validity, so did not have a valid ticket. Apart from your immediate admission of the full extent of the situation, your actions appear indistinguishable from someone deliberately cheating the railway. Firstly, expect to have to compensate the railway for the total amount of the fares you didn't pay over this period. Secondly, expect to compensate them for the costs of any investigation they carry out (could be around £100 or more). Then when they write to you, look at other threads in the forum to see the sort of reply you can send to try to persuade them to settle this out of court. One bit of leverage you might have is that they might request compensation based on full single fares in each direction each day (even disregarding the ticket you held), while you might persuade a court only to award a lower amount (based on travelcards and taking into account the ticket you already held), so they might prefer to settle out of court for the certainty of a higher amount (if you agree) instead of prosecuting where the court might possibly award a lower amount.

 

[ForTheLoveOf]

Hi All,


I have unfortunately messed up myself with SWT and need help and apologies for long post.


At the outset I acknowledge that I have done a blunder knowingly or unknowingly (as that does not matter) and now am paying for that.


Below are my details.


Since June 2017 and till June 2018 I was travelling from station A (Zone5) to station B (Zone4) via Clapham Junction using Paper monthly travel card it was having written “monthly travel card from A to B”. It was always a hassle to renew this paper travel card as I had to wait in queue at station. One of my friend advised that I can put my same monthly card on my oyster and can then renew it online without need to wait at station and in addition to that I will also get a free bus ride as oyster card is valid for buses everywhere if it has a travel card loaded.


I took this advice literally (which I now regret deeply) and without checking much went to ticket window and asked them to load travel card on my oyster. Officer mentioned that I need to do it at self-servicing machine. I followed as suggested and bought monthly travel card loaded on oyster between Zone 5 and Zone 4 by literally taking reference from my paper travel card. While buying I found monthly oyster travel card was £14 cheaper than my paper based travel card. I just thought why so and I got reason in my head may be companies want to promote oyster (paperless) and that can be the reason.


So from next travel I started using my oyster monthly travel card in the same way as I was using paper travel card as in my mind it was exactly like paper travel card. Also as I was using paper travel card to open station barriers only and was not using it were there were no barriers. I kept doing same i.e. always touched in at source station A (it had barriers) and never touched out at destination station B (it had no barriers) and vice versa on return as I was doing with paper travel card. I travelled like this almost daily from A (Zone5) to B (Zone4) via Clapham Junction for 4-5 months.


During this 4-5 month period I was multiple times asked to show my ticket at below stations but was not alerted or told there is something wrong with my travel card

1. Clapham Junction (in morning and in evenings at platform bridge. Can remember latest date when I was told it is good in evening)
2. At station B in mornings (even during checks I did not touch out as it was not at all in my mind because for me it was like paper travel card)
3. During my train journey from Clapham Junction to Station B and vice versa

Last week on XX/11/2018 when I came from station A (Zone5 and touched in as routine) I was changing platform in morning at Clapham Junction and my ticket was checked by SWT staff and I was told all good. Then in evening on the same date, when I was coming back from station B (Zone 4 and not touched in/out as routine) I was again stopped at Clapham Junction platform bridge. This time I was told that my ticket is not valid in Zone 3. I was surprised and thought there is some confusion with the staff, as till now my ticket was always valid and I am carrying the same ticket.


Then I realized that I was speaking to RPI and he advised me that my ticket is not valid in Zone 3 and I am travelling with invalid ticket. I was still not able to make out what is happening and he then interviewed under caution. I was bit upset but answered his all questions with honesty and calmly. He asked me was I going to pay my due fare if I was not checked, I said no as I was of impression my ticket is correct and valid. I told him how my tickets were checked multiple times and I had no clue I am using wrong ticket. He said he will mention that in the interview which he did. Multiple times RPI asked me if I want to leave I can and need not to answer his questions, but I said no I will answer all your questions and then only go. He finished interview and then I asked can he kindly let me know what is correct ticket for me and he mentioned I should get a travel card for zones 2, 3, 4, 5. I also asked him next steps and he mentioned TOC will write to me.


After I finished my interview I started googling and that is when my world shattered and I realized in what mess I have landed. The more I read the more worried I got. As I mentioned I am wrong as I should have not treated oyster travel card 100% same as that of paper travel card and should have done my homework before using it. I am in London from last 5-6 years and have very rarely used oyster card but with PAYG credit. This was first time in my life I have loaded monthly travel card on it. Got same wrong on day 1 and landed in this trouble. I then immediately after reaching home bought the correct travel card for zone 2, 3, 4, 5 as was mentioned by RPI and also made sure it is correct by going through information (which unfortunately I have not done earlier). I also realized the correct monthly cost of correct card is £30 more.


I honestly was never intending to save money by getting wrong card but am not sure how to prove it. Now am worried what will happen and who will believe me. I still am struggling to understand how nobody in checking staff detected that I was using wrong travel card during this 4-5 months period when it was multiple times checked.


Will appreciate your help and advice on this. I have not yet heard back from TOC but soon I will be getting a letter. I want to do anything to settle this out of court as criminal record will be devastating for my job and my normal life.

Thanks

How much Pay As You Go credit did you have on your Oyster card when you were stopped?

 

[Hooked_HT]

If you touch in and have sufficient PAYG credit on the card, you can travel outside zones 4 and 5 provided you touch out at the end of your journey. This is why the checks when travelling from station A would have found everything OK - they assumed you would touch out at station B and then the extra part of the fare would be deducted from the PAYG balance. In the other direction, you had not touched in, were outside the zones of validity, so did not have a valid ticket. Apart from your immediate admission of the full extent of the situation, your actions appear indistinguishable from someone deliberately cheating the railway. Firstly, expect to have to compensate the railway for the total amount of the fares you didn't pay over this period. Secondly, expect to compensate them for the costs of any investigation they carry out (could be around £100 or more). Then when they write to you, look at other threads in the forum to see the sort of reply you can send to try to persuade them to settle this out of court. One bit of leverage you might have is that they might request compensation based on full single fares in each direction each day (even disregarding the ticket you held), while you might persuade a court only to award a lower amount (based on travelcards and taking into account the ticket you already held), so they might prefer to settle out of court for the certainty of a higher amount (if you agree) instead of prosecuting where the court might possibly award a lower amount.

Many thanks Furlong for your reply. I now understand what has happened. The bit which I struggle to understand is - in past 4-5 months they checked my card 3-4 times when I was coming back from station B (without touching) at Clapham Junction and no alert was raised. This again added to my misfortune that all is well with my ticket.

Apart from your immediate admission of the full extent of the situation, your actions appear indistinguishable from someone deliberately cheating the railway

I was travelling twice a day via Clapham Junction station (morning and evening) and every now and then this station is getting checked by RPIs. What I would have gained for saving £13 (my old paper travel card less the 40p a day) or £30 (if I had used oyster card £1 day) and then subjecting myself to mental trauma or risking myself to prosecution. But yes anyways it does not matter, I have wronged and I have to pay for that.
Just hoping that I am given chance to settle out of court, will pay them as they feel fit. Any figure which I should mention to them or I should just request out of court settlement and let they come up with figure. Again thanks for your help.

 

[Hooked_HT]

How much Pay As You Go credit did you have on your Oyster card when you were stopped?

It was £10 and few pennies.

 

[Nick66]

There is a similar thread on the fares advice forum at the moment. If you had touched in and had PAYG credit on your Oyster you would have been OK. You need to have a look at the TfL single fare finder to see if there is a valid fare between the two stations using only zones 4 and 5. As the Travelcard was significantly cheaper than the paper season ticket I suspect there isn’t, meaning that you would have been charged for the zones not covered by your Travelcard if you had touched in and out correctly, but you couldn’t have fallen foul of an RPI.

 

[furlong]

The bit which I struggle to understand is - in past 4-5 months they checked my card 3-4 times when I was coming back from station B (without touching) at Clapham Junction and no alert was raised. This again added to my misfortune that all is well with my ticket.

If you travelled A to B then B to A, how long did you spend at B on those occasions? Might it have been less than the maximum journey time from station A so that your original touch-in was still considered valid?

 

[swt_passenger]

Only for accuracy now, but was the original paper ticket actually a travelcard, or a normal point to point rail season ticket between the two named stations?

 

[Clip]

Only for accuracy now, but was the original paper ticket actually a travelcard, or a normal point to point rail season ticket between the two named stations?

Quite and if i have read it properly then they haven't touched in at the start of their return journey from B either which is why they have been stopped - is this correct OP?

when I was coming back from station B (without touching)

 

[Hooked_HT]

There is a similar thread on the fares advice forum at the moment. If you had touched in and had PAYG credit on your Oyster you would have been OK. You need to have a look at the TfL single fare finder to see if there is a valid fare between the two stations using only zones 4 and 5. As the Travelcard was significantly cheaper than the paper season ticket I suspect there isn’t, meaning that you would have been charged for the zones not covered by your Travelcard if you had touched in and out correctly, but you couldn’t have fallen foul of an RPI.

Thanks Nick66.

Yes but what is worrying is how they did not pick it up during past 4-5 months as my card was checked multiple times. That is a scary thing. Because when your ticket is checked by authorized person and you are told it is fine, then you really don't check before renewing the tickets again as you assume it is 100% correct.

 

[Hooked_HT]

If you travelled A to B then B to A, how long did you spend at B on those occasions? Might it have been less than the maximum journey time from station A so that your original touch-in was still considered valid?

I travel from A to B in morning at 8am and come back from B to A at 6:45pm. This is my fixed travel pattern. That i why I was expecting to have been alerted on my first check. There was nothing different I did on the day I was told my ticket is not valid.

 

[Hooked_HT]

Only for accuracy now, but was the original paper ticket actually a travelcard, or a normal point to point rail season ticket between the two named stations?

It is saying season at the bottom right corner that means it is between two named stations as both A and B are mentioned in it.

 

[swt_passenger]

It is saying season at the bottom right corner that means it is between two named stations as both A and B are mentioned in it.

Ah, that’s what I thought. It wasn’t a travelcard then.

 

[Hooked_HT]

Ah, that’s what I thought. It wasn’t a travelcard then.

Oh so that is another blunder of mine. While I was using season ticket I was just coming from A to B via clapham and did same thing with Oyster card A to B via clapham and never put a foot down on station on zone 2 and 3 (except Clapham). But now I know that was not correct. Not sure how it will go from here...Can't stop worrying.

 

[Hooked_HT]

Quite and if i have read it properly then they haven't touched in at the start of their return journey from B either which is why they have been stopped - is this correct OP?

Yes I have not touched in from B which I was stopped. But that is what I was doing from last 4-5 months and multiple time my ticket was checked and no alert was raised. This is what led to me using this wrong ticket for such a long time. If I was alerted at first instance (can't remember exactly when first time my ticket was checked after getting oyster card, but can say it was within first month when I started this).

 

[Hooked_HT]

Quite and if i have read it properly then they haven't touched in at the start of their return journey from B either which is why they have been stopped - is this correct OP?

Unfortunately for 4-5 months (can find exact dates as well). But to be honest, was I not stopped, I would have continued as I of impression that it is correct ticket. That is what is told RPi as well.

Getting worried Clip. Not sure what is way out.

Above is answer for "How Long, Has This Been Going On?"

 

[Nick66]

Might it help if the OP mentioned the stations rather than just saying station A and station B? Or would that be making him/her identifiable?

 

[najaB]

Getting worried Clip. Not sure what is way out.

The way out is to keep a level head and deal with TfL SWR in a calm manner. They aren't (contrary to what some people say) staffed completely by heartless monsters intent on trapping people. They understand that mistakes can happen and, provided you deal with them courteously and accept that you made a mistake, there's a good chance that you'll get a satisfactory outcome.

Edit: Thanks for the correction @furlong

 

[Clip]

The way out is to keep a level head and deal with TfL in a calm manner. They aren't (contrary to what some people say) staffed completely by heartless monsters intent on trapping people. They understand that mistakes can happen and, provided you deal with them courteously and accept that you made a mistake, there's a good chance that you'll get a satisfactory outcome.

pretty much this.

if you already have told the rpi that you have been doing this for a while then do not leave it out of your reply as it will be in his notes

 

[furlong]

The way out is to keep a level head and deal with TfL in a calm manner.

The first post implied it was SWR (formerly SWT). Perhaps the OP could confirm whether or not they are sure it was that company or if it might have been a different one?

 

[najaB]

The first post implied it was SWR (formerly SWT). Perhaps the OP could confirm whether or not they are sure it was that company or if it might have been a different one?

My mistake, thanks for the correction. In any case the advice remains the same.

 

[MikeWh]

Many thanks Furlong for your reply. I now understand what has happened. The bit which I struggle to understand is - in past 4-5 months they checked my card 3-4 times when I was coming back from station B (without touching) at Clapham Junction and no alert was raised. This again added to my misfortune that all is well with my ticket.

I can't explain why they didn't notice. If they were properly reading your card then it should have flashed a red light saying that you were outside the zones on your card and it hadn't been touched in. I guess it's possible that doing such a repetitive task might mean they miss it occasionally, but I find it hard to believe that this would happen 3-4 times.

You haven't said what the stations are, understandably, but there are some ways to avoid needing to pay for zone 2. If you take the District line from Wimbledon to East Putney and walk to Putney SWR station you avoid zone 2 as both Putney stations are on the zone 2/3 boundary. Also, if one end of your journey is in the Croydon area then consider taking the tram to Wimbledon as that is covered by your travelcard. If you want to PM me your actual stations I will try to work out some tailored advice.

 

[Hooked_HT]

I can't explain why they didn't notice. If they were properly reading your card then it should have flashed a red light saying that you were outside the zones on your card and it hadn't been touched in. I guess it's possible that doing such a repetitive task might mean they miss it occasionally, but I find it hard to believe that this would happen 3-4 times.

You haven't said what the stations are, understandably, but there are some ways to avoid needing to pay for zone 2. If you take the District line from Wimbledon to East Putney and walk to Putney SWR station you avoid zone 2 as both Putney stations are on the zone 2/3 boundary. Also, if one end of your journey is in the Croydon area then consider taking the tram to Wimbledon as that is covered by your travelcard. If you want to PM me your actual stations I will try to work out some tailored advice.

Thanks MikeWH for your help. They have checked it multiple times for sure but unfortunately I can remember exact date for one check only as on that day I had to meet a friend at Clapham Junction station in evening, hence was able to find the date. Other times when I was checked unfortunately can not remember exact date. And may be because of some reason my card has not flashed and I will say it is my bad luck. And I kept using it like a season ticket between two points, with a impression that it is correct ticket.

Another worry which I now have is - at the time of RPI interview, I told him my card was checked multiple times (as I was upset which is wrong and told him am not sure how many times but might be 10-12 times, and I know 10-12 times is not correct). But was checked 3-4 times will that also be taken as I lied to RPI? Although it was not deliberate lie but was my reaction at that movement as I was upset of being told my ticket is not valid as earlier when checked I was not alerted.

 

[Hooked_HT]

The first post implied it was SWR (formerly SWT). Perhaps the OP could confirm whether or not they are sure it was that company or if it might have been a different one?

Yes furlong it was SouthWest Railways.

 

[Hooked_HT]

The way out is to keep a level head and deal with TfL SWR in a calm manner. They aren't (contrary to what some people say) staffed completely by heartless monsters intent on trapping people. They understand that mistakes can happen and, provided you deal with them courteously and accept that you made a mistake, there's a good chance that you'll get a satisfactory outcome.

Edit: Thanks for the correction @furlong

Thanks najaB will do as suggested because that is the only way.
Another concern which I have is - during interview I have told RPI that my ticket was checked multiple time, he asked how many times and I might has said not sure might be 10-12 times but was never alerted. I said 10-12 times as I was bit upset where as it has been checked only 3-4 times. Would that also be issue?

I am waiting for letter, when it comes, shall I mention my confusion of considering season ticket same as that of oyster card or that is not relevant?

Thanks

 

[najaB]

Another concern which I have is - during interview I have told RPI that my ticket was checked multiple time, he asked how many times and I might has said not sure might be 10-12 times but was never alerted. I said 10-12 times as I was bit upset where as it has been checked only 3-4 times. Would that also be issue?

I don't think so. It was checked multiple times so the exact number doesn't matter.

 

[Hooked_HT]

I don't think so. It was checked multiple times so the exact number doesn't matter.

Thank you so much najaB.

 

[nuts & bolts]

Thanks Nick66.

Yes but what is worrying is how they did not pick it up during past 4-5 months as my card was checked multiple times. That is a scary thing. Because when your ticket is checked by authorized person and you are told it is fine, then you really don't check before renewing the tickets again as you assume it is 100% correct.

In what manner did they (Gateline staff & or RPI's?) check your ticket, was it a handheld device and what was the reason they checked it multiple times?

 

[Hooked_HT]

In what manner did they (Gateline staff & or RPI's?) check your ticket, was it a handheld device and what was the reason they checked it multiple times?

They used handheld device to check my ticket. By multiple times I mean my ticket was checked multiple times during this 4-5 month period. I don't mean multiple times in one check.

 

[nuts & bolts]

They used handheld device to check my ticket. By multiple times I mean my ticket was checked multiple times during this 4-5 month period. I don't mean multiple times in one check.

When your ticket was checked at multiple times during the 4 - 5 months, was it at the same entry/exit barriers?