Introduction of Mark 2 air conditioned stock

[AY1975]

As there's a thread on the introduction of Mark 3 stock on the WCML at https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/introduction-of-mk-3-stock-on-wcml.286705/ I thought how about a thread on the introduction of Mark 2 air conditioned stock?

Does anyone know when Mark 2 aircons were first introduced on each InterCity route, which type of aircons were initially used on each route (Mark 2Ds, 2Es or 2Fs) and what services they initially worked?

 

[D6130]

From memory, I believe that Mark 2d sets - with Mark 1 catering vehicles - were first introduced on the East Coast Main Line in the Summer 1972 timetable....but others may be able to correct me and/or provide more information.

 

[Sir Felix Pole]

One problem on the WR was that Cl 52 'Westerns' couldn't power air-con stock so introduction on Devon and Cornwall services had to wait until Cl 50s displaced from the WCML became available from 1974 onwards.

 

[Magdalia]

As there's a thread on the introduction of Mark 3 stock on the WCML at https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/introduction-of-mk-3-stock-on-wcml.286705/ I thought how about a thread on the introduction of Mark 2 air conditioned stock?

Does anyone know when Mark 2 aircons were first introduced on each InterCity route, which type of aircons were initially used on each route (Mark 2Ds, 2Es or 2Fs) and what services they initially worked?

The first air conditioned coaches were the Mark IIDs. They first ran on the East Coast Main Line starting on 12 July 1971 with 3 trains in each direction between Kings Cross and Newcastle. The 8 car flyers to and from West Yorkshire then went over to Mark IIDs on 23 August 1971. The premier Scottish trains followed later in 1971.

But the introduction was protracted because the coaches had to be taken out of service twice for modifications. The first vehicles had internal door latches that had to be removed after 3 fatalities, and modifications were required after problems with snow getting into the air conditioning intakes in the 1971/72 winter.

One problem on the WR was that Cl 52 'Westerns' couldn't power air-con stock so introduction on Devon and Cornwall services had to wait until Cl 50s displaced from the WCML became available from 1974 onwards.

I can't remember whether the West Coast Main Line came before the Western Region or the other way around. The first Western Region air conditioned trains were Paddington-South Wales, Bristol and Weston-Super-Mare, I think some time in 1973.

Devon and Cornwall did not get new air conditioned MarkIIs, they got cascaded stock after the introduction of HSTs. The first air conditioned trains were the up and down Golden Hind and Cornish Riviera, starting in October 1976.

 

[Ash Bridge]

The first air conditioned coaches were the Mark IIDs. They first ran on the East Coast Main Line starting on 12 July 1971 with 3 trains in each direction between Kings Cross and Newcastle. The 8 car flyers to and from West Yorkshire then went over to Mark IIDs on 23 August 1971. The premier Scottish trains followed later in 1971.

But the introduction was protracted because the coaches had to be taken out of service twice for modifications. The first vehicles had internal door latches that had to be removed after 3 fatalities, and modifications were required after problems with snow getting into the air conditioning intakes in the 1971/72 winter.

I can't remember whether the West Coast Main Line came before the Western Region or the other way around. The first Western Region air conditioned trains were Paddington-South Wales, Bristol and Weston-Super-Mare, I think some time in 1973.

Devon and Cornwall did not get new air conditioned MarkIIs, they got cascaded stock after the introduction of HSTs. The first air conditioned trains were the up and down Golden Hind and Cornish Riviera, starting in October 1976.

I think it was most likely WCML as I recall travelling on a full aircon set (excepting the buffet/kitchen vehicle) Stockport - Euston and return in December 1972 on what was probably a demonstration run.

 

[Western Lord]

One problem on the WR was that Cl 52 'Westerns' couldn't power air-con stock so introduction on Devon and Cornwall services had to wait until Cl 50s displaced from the WCML became available from 1974 onwards.

This reminds me of the day in the mid seventies when the WCML was blocked and no Euston to Birmingham trains could run. Services were diverted to and from Paddington, via the then freight only Leamington to Coventry line. I went over to Paddington and took a return trip to Birmingham in order to bag some freight only trackage. The stock being used was the normal LMR air con Mk.2s, and the outward journey (they all ran via Oxford) was behind a 47/4. Coming back, however, the train pulled into the platform at New Street with a Class 52 Western at the head. As we set off the guard added to the end of his announcement "also, due to a different type of locomotive, there will be no air conditioning on this train".

 

[Taunton]

By December 1971 on ECML, as I recall assisting my colleague with a vast trunk into the BSO at the rear of a service in Edinburgh as he was heading for Christmas. First air-con stock I had ever seen, not an auspicious start of course just seeing the van interior. Also saw on the passenger door there the internal big door handle - for the first and last time! Thought it hazardous the moment I saw it; when in almost weeks afterwards I read children (multiple I believe) had fiddled with the handle and fallen out I wondered just how it had passed any realistic assessment.

 

[LowLevel]

By December 1971 on ECML, as I recall assisting my colleague with a vast trunk into the BSO at the rear of a service in Edinburgh as he was heading for Christmas. First air-con stock I had ever seen, not an auspicious start of course just seeing the van interior. Also saw on the passenger door there the internal big door handle - for the first and last time! Thought it hazardous the moment I saw it; when in almost weeks afterwards I read children (multiple I believe) had fiddled with the handle and fallen out I wondered just how it had passed any realistic assessment.

I assume the large handle was something akin to the one in the guard's brake van for their inward open door? If son you can hardly imagine the rationale for having that on a passenger door that will open if you lean on it whilst pushing the handle? That said even as a tall person I find the door handles on air con mark 2 coaches awkward to operate, they seem to require an inordinate amount of reaching.

Of course various MUs also had internal door latches but the things are so small and hard to use I'm not sure I've ever seen anyone do anything other than just reach out and use the outside door handle.

 

[RuddA]

My earliest memory were Mk2d on London-Norwich. Were they from the WCML once later Mk2s were introduced there?
Anyone know what operated London-Norwich before the Mk2d, Mk1 or earlier Mk2?

Thanks you.

 

[Taunton]

Someone will have a photo of the handle. It was something like the internal door handle on aircraft with a big swing across, far larger so than the external handles.

 

[Magdalia]

The internal door latches and the internal door handles were different things.

The internal door latches allowed the door to be opened from the inside, without needing to lower the droplight and turn the outside handle. These were usual in MarkI and early MarkII loco hauled stock and also first generation DMUs.

The internal door handles were different, a grab handle going across the width of the door and there to enable the door to be pulled shut from the inside.

The important factor is that Mark IIDs had wrap round end doors that were much wider and heavier than the doors on older rolling stock. This meant that they swung open much more quickly once the latch was released, whether from the inside or the outside.

Very few people remember the internal door latches on the MarkIIDs as they were removed so soon after introduction. I remember them in first generation DMUs and MarkI stock, not MarkIIs.

 

[westernpunk]

Coming back, however, the train pulled into the platform at New Street with a Class 52 Western at the head. As we set off the guard added to the end of his announcement "also, due to a different type of locomotive, there will be no air conditioning on this train".

was it 1051

 

[Clarence Yard]

The interior door handles on the IID stock were where the cover plates now are. Originally the door drop light was fixed so the handle was meant to be a more modern and easy to use equivalent to the then conventional door latch. Unfortunately, it was far too easy to operate and, iirc, it resulted in at least 3 fatalities shortly after the stock was introduced on the ECML.

BR did experiment with a cover over the handle but that didn’t find favour so the now familiar cover plate was fitted and the droplight was made usable so you always operated the door from the outside handle, although that caused trouble as the first efforts at making the droplight sprung resulted in a very fierce return!

The order of introduction was ECML in 1971, WCML in 1972 and WR (Bristol/S.Wales) in 1973. When both the HST and LMR Mk3 sets appeared, they started to work on other services.

 

[Harpo]

This reminds me of the day in the mid seventies when the WCML was blocked and no Euston to Birmingham trains could run. Services were diverted to and from Paddington, via the then freight only Leamington to Coventry line. I went over to Paddington and took a return trip to Birmingham in order to bag some freight only trackage. The stock being used was the normal LMR air con Mk.2s, and the outward journey (they all ran via Oxford) was behind a 47/4. Coming back, however, the train pulled into the platform at New Street with a Class 52 Western at the head. As we set off the guard added to the end of his announcement "also, due to a different type of locomotive, there will be no air conditioning on this train".

Possibly the same train a former colleague of mine spoke of not long before the end of the Westerns. Via Coventry with a thousand was incredibly rare and he got a short notice half day to do it from Paddington.

There was a standard contingency plan for emergency WCML closures called ‘CP1’. Old Oak kicked out engine, crew and stock for the first down working after which everything was formed by diverted LMR resources with EH duffs (in theory) off Saltley.

 

[Ken H]

Was there much mixed working with early Mk2's and air con ones mixed in a set? (Of course later there were mixed M2 air con + Mk 3 in set on WCML)

I think BR was short of catering coaches so you would see a set of air con Mk2 with an older catering car in the set. I dont think any Mk2 air con catering vehicles were built.

 

[hexagon789]

The order of introduction was ECML in 1971, WCML in 1972 and WR (Bristol/S.Wales) in 1973. When both the HST and LMR Mk3 sets appeared, they started to work on other services.

And for completeness, December 1972 for CIÉ and exactly the same occurred there - once the first Mk3s appeared in July 1984, the Mk2Ds began to migrate to other workings eventually covering routes that had previously only seen "orthodox stock".

Was there much mixed working with early Mk2's and air con ones mixed in a set?

Not uncommon to see the odd PV Mk2 in an otherwise air-con set making up the seating capacity when presumably the booked air-con vehicle was out for maintenance and no spare available or sometimes there weren't actually enough of a specific type, so a PV one was used anyway.

The WR had no air-con Mk2 brakes originally, so sets had either a Mk2C BSO or a Mk1 BG.

Mixed sets were more common on CrossCountry workings in the early/mid-80s it seemed, particularly with the second class vehicles.

Though, the so-called "Jumbo" sets the WR made up for the busiest Paddington/West Country workings as capacity busters were also highly mixed PV & air-con Mk2s.

The Mk2 push-pull sets on ScotRail could also feature the odd PV Mk2 and in the latter years one or two sets were very mixed.

dont think any Mk2 air con catering vehicles were built.

As new, only for CIÉ in Ireland.

 

[Ken H]

As new, only for CIÉ in Ireland.

Youe 'as new' reminded me about some retrofitted with a counter installed at one end. The toilet became a pantry. A catering trolley was brought onto the train and that became part of the counter with the stock ready to sell. It was a modular catering trolley but i think modular catering would be a new thread. (Basically standard airline type trolleys to get catering stuff on and off trains but also to act as storage when stowed on board)

 

[hexagon789]

Youe 'as new' reminded me about some retrofitted with a counter installed at one end. The toilet became a pantry. A catering trolley was brought onto the train and that became part of the counter with the stock ready to sell. It was a modular catering trolley but i think modular catering would be a new thread. (Basically standard airline type trolleys to get catering stuff on and off trains but also to act as storage when stowed on board)

TSOT and BSOT, "T" for Trolley but usually described as micro-buffet. There were Mk2C and D TSOT and Mk2Z BSOT.

They were done by local depots, on the cheap, so vehicles varied a bit, but essentially as you write - toilet one end converted to pantry/storage area; two seating bays removed and counter with slot installed. The slot in the counters was designed to fit a standard catering trolley, so really the level of catering offered was very similar - essentially a static catering trolley service, they could at least store more provisions and presumably the counter gave scope to display products more prominently and made it easier for staff to serve customers as they would have more room to manoeuvre so to speak.

Some Mk1 BSO were also converted to BSOT in Scotland mainly for use on the Far North/West Highland/Inverness-Aberdeen.

 

[Helvellyn]

The order of introduction was ECML in 1971, WCML in 1972 and WR (Bristol/S.Wales) in 1973. When both the HST and LMR Mk3 sets appeared, they started to work on other seservices.

The ECML got all Mark 2Ds (FO, TSO, BSO, FK, BFK), the WCML got Mark 2D First Class coaches (FO, FK, BFK) but Mark 2E TSO and BSO, and the GWML Mark 2E FO and TSO (mentioned elsewhere no brakes).

There was a small batch of 2E FO and TSO that were meant to go to the ECML but for a reason I can't recall they went to the WCML and the first 2Fs went to the ECML vice the WCML. All three main routes got 2F FOs and TSOs but only the WCML got 2F BSOs.

I think BR was short of catering coaches so you would see a set of air con Mk2 with an older catering car in the set. I dont think any Mk2 air con catering vehicles were built.

Not short just no Mark 2 ones built new, and many of the Mark 1 ones were late built and not suitable for cascading to secondary routes. So the solution was many Restaurant Buffets (RBs) and Restaurant Unclassifieds (RUs) were refurbished with air-con style lowered ceilings, fluorescent lighting and fixed plastic chairs to create the Restaurant Buffet Refurbished (RBR). Trains with large dining demand might have retained Kitchen Buffets (RKBs), primarily on the ECML and WCML.

 

[norbitonflyer]

The first air conditioned coaches were the Mark IIDs. They first ran on the East Coast Main Line starting on 12 July 1971 with 3 trains in each direction between Kings Cross and Newcastle. The 8 car flyers to and from West Yorkshire then went over to Mark IIDs on 23 August 1971. The premier Scottish trains followed later in 1971.

I remember travelling with a friend from Retford to Berwick in the summer of 1971, before I really got into trains, and he was excited when a rake of the new aircon stock rolled into Retford to take us north. I would imagine we changed at York, but don't recall. I know we did on the way back, because he was equally excited about the fact that our train would be non stop to London after we left it at York meant it was likely to be (and in the event was) a Deltic.

In fact, I think it's fair to say it was that trip, and my friends enthusiasm, which got me into trains.

 

[Magdalia]

My earliest memory were Mk2d on London-Norwich. Were they from the WCML once later Mk2s were introduced there?
Anyone know what operated London-Norwich before the Mk2d, Mk1 or earlier Mk2?

Thanks you.

The first air conditioned coaches on the Liverpool Street-Norwich line were in late 1980. They were cascaded from the West of England line when HSTs were introduced there.

Norwich first had early MarkIIs in 1973.

 

[AY1975]

The order of introduction was ECML in 1971, WCML in 1972 and WR (Bristol/S.Wales) in 1973. When both the HST and LMR Mk3 sets appeared, they started to work on other services.

What about the Midland Main Line? I would guess that the MML got Mark 2 aircons cascaded from the WR by the introduction of HSTs and from the WCML by the introduction of Mark 3s.

 

[hexagon789]

What about the Midland Main Line? I would guess that the MML got Mark 2 aircons cascaded from the WR by the introduction of HSTs and from the WCML by the introduction of Mark 3s.

Summer 1975 for the first air-con vehicles, they were re-allocated from the WCML by introduction of the Mk3s.

Vehicles were mostly 2E, with some 2D BFK, FK and FOs.

 

[D6130]

There was a small batch of 2E FO and TSO that were meant to go to the ECML but for a reason I can't recall they went to the WCML and the first 2Fs went to the ECML vice the WCML. All three main routes got 2F FOs and TSOs but only the WCML got 2F BSOs.

IIRC, Mark 2e stock had a different air-con system which was incompatible with the ETS supply of the Deltics and the early "generator" 47s.

 

[hexagon789]

IIRC, Mark 2e stock had a different air-con system which was incompatible with the ETS supply of the Deltics and the early "generator" 47s.

It was the Motor-Alternator sets.

On the 2D and 2E they couldn't handle greatly fluctuating voltages, the way the ETH was supplied from the original ETH Generator" 47s and the 55s, meant the ETH voltage was not relatively constant but varied with the position of the power handle.

The 2Ds used on the ECML had their MA sets modified to cope but 2Es and off-region 2Ds were not modified so were barred to haulage by 47401-420 and 55s.

The 2F and Mk3s had a different design of Motor Alternators, so didn't have the issue to begin with.

Also, while talking about Air Con, strictly speaking the 2D and E are actually pressure ventilated and electric heat with an air-con system superimposed, the 2Fs have a dedicated AC system incorporated in from scratch. (The CIÉ Mk2Ds share this feature with the BR 2Fs.)

 

[RuddA]

The first air conditioned coaches on the Liverpool Street-Norwich line were in late 1980. They were cascaded from the West of England line when HSTs were introduced there.

Norwich first had early MarkIIs in 1973.

Thank you.

So just before electrification I presume.

 

[Sun Chariot]

... some retrofitted with a counter installed at one end. The toilet became a pantry. A catering trolley was brought onto the train and that became part of the counter with the stock ready to sell. It was a modular catering trolley but i think modular catering would be a new thread. (Basically standard airline type trolleys to get catering stuff on and off trains but also to act as storage when stowed on board)

The Mk2d RMBT 66xx number series.
Here's a photo (not mine) of one.

https://www.railscans.co.uk/picture/_c48_32m.jpg

 

[Magdalia]

Thank you.

So just before electrification I presume.

No.

The Liverpool Street-Norwich trains were air conditioned stock and diesel hauled from 1980 to 1985.

There was then 2 more years of mixed traction with loco changes at Ipswich.

 

[RuddA]

No.

The Liverpool Street-Norwich trains were air conditioned stock and diesel hauled from 1980 to 1985.

There was then 2 more years of mixed traction with loco changes at Ipswich.

Sorry, for some reason I read it as late 1980s rather than late 1980!

At least that now confirms my memories as a young child only ever remembering air-con stock.

Thank you.

 

[70014IronDuke]

Summer 1975 for the first air-con vehicles, they were re-allocated from the WCML by introduction of the Mk3s.

Vehicles were mostly 2E, with some 2D BFK, FK and FOs.

No - Air-con Mk2s first appeared on the fast Sheffields in October 1973, though I'm not sure of the exact marks.

What about the Midland Main Line? I would guess that the MML got Mark 2 aircons cascaded from the WR by the introduction of HSTs and from the WCML by the introduction of Mark 3s.

Earlier than than the introduction of Mk 3s, IIRC.