Introduction of Mark 2 air conditioned stock

[danielnez1]

Thanks @hexagon789 for the info. By the time the Mk2F was being designed, would it have just made sense to jump into building more Mk3A coaches instead, or was there somethnig like a gauging need to build more Mk2s?

 

[hexagon789]

Thanks @hexagon789 for the info. By the time the Mk2F was being designed, would it have just made sense to jump into building more Mk3A coaches instead, or was there somethnig like a gauging need to build more Mk2s?

Well, the prototype Mk3s appeared in 1972...

I'll reread the chapter on 2E/F in Harris, there is a bit on the Mk3, length and so forth but I've forgotten the gist it. Bear with and I'll report back tomorrow.

 

[danielnez1]

Well, the prototype Mk3s appeared in 1972...

But it did not feature the envisioned sliding plug exterior doors or retention toilets (BR and the Government back then loved to shoot themselves in the foot - as their accessors have done to this day).

I'll reread the chapter on 2E/F in Harris, there is a bit on the Mk3, length and so forth but I've forgotten the gist it. Bear with and I'll report back tomorrow.

I have lost that book, so thanks

 

[Springs Branch]

I find it fascinating the Mk2s had so many variants with many Mk2Fs "sampling" Mk3 features. The wood veneer panelling of the original Mk2D and E interiors made them look dark and dated IMO, but they did scrub up well when refurbished with light panelling.

How far through the Mk2 series did those coffin-shaped tables go?

Did they make it all the way through to the Mk2F design (as built), or did the last of the variants transition to Mk3-style rectangular tables?

I didn't mind those tapered tables back in the day. The convenience of easier in and out to the (required) window seat trumped any conceivable inconvenience from the lost few square inches of table area when forced to occupy an aisle seat.

 

[Sun Chariot]

@Springs Branch my grey cells recall the tapered tables in Mk2d, rectangular tables in Mk2f. I cannot for the life of me recall what shape the Mk2e tables were.
If a Mk2d TSO was in the consist, my objective was to "bag" the single seat in the end bays (Mk2d were 62S rather than 64S). I'm six foot six tall, so those 3-seat bays offered extra leg-room for me.

 

[edwin_m]

By the time the Mk2D came about, perhaps that should have been christened the Mk3 given the differences to the original Mk2, and the installation of AC (and AFIK pre-taped PA announcements).

I wonder if the reason it wasn't, was that the Mk2c was fitted with lower ceilings and I think ducting for aircon, but never actually got the equipment. So they wouldn't have known whether to assign it to Mk2 or Mk3.

Basically the bodyshell seems to have been the distinguishing feature. Mk1 had a non-structural body on a separate underframe, Mk2 was an integral structure and probably quite similar through the series except for things like door apertures and the shallower windows of the aircons. Mk3 was a new structural design with things like the corrugated roof and of course the extra 3m of length.

I do tend to agree about mk 2s. A nice carriage with a genuinely modern feeling that must have seemed like a step change from the mark 1 which to me feels like an evolution from pre war designs of carriage. Tho other observers with more knowledge might be able to comment on how considerable a change the mk 1 was at its introduction.

Weren't the very earliest Mk2s (part of the series later known as Mk2z) were very similar to Mk1s internally, before some of the ideas from the XP64 train fed through a bit later? Then the layout with the winged seats with blue check moquette (in Second) lasted through to Mk2e I think. Mk2f were very different inside, having the IC70 seats with flat cloth, and very similar internally to the Mk3s that followed.

 

[Ken H]

I wonder if the reason it wasn't, was that the Mk2c was fitted with lower ceilings and I think ducting for aircon, but never actually got the equipment. So they wouldn't have known whether to assign it to Mk2 or Mk3.

Basically the bodyshell seems to have been the distinguishing feature. Mk1 had a non-structural body on a separate underframe, Mk2 was an integral structure and probably quite similar through the series except for things like door apertures and the shallower windows of the aircons. Mk3 was a new structural design with things like the corrugated roof and of course the extra 3m of length.

Weren't the very earliest Mk2s (part of the series later known as Mk2z) were very similar to Mk1s internally, before some of the ideas from the XP64 train fed through a bit later? Then the layout with the winged seats with blue check moquette (in Second) lasted through to Mk2e I think. Mk2f were very different inside, having the IC70 seats with flat cloth, and very similar internally to the Mk3s that followed.

Mk 1's had opening windows that split in the middle, but Mk2's had one big sliding window with a catch at one end. . Not sure if that was all Mk 2's.

There was a line on the sign above the windows with max opening if you wanted to avoid draughts. Dont know if that was Mk1, Mk2 or both.

Was the toilet occupied illuminated sign a Mk2 thing or did some Mk1's have them?

 

[edwin_m]

Mk 1's had opening windows that split in the middle, but Mk2's had one big sliding window with a catch at one end. . Not sure if that was all Mk 2's.

There was a line on the sign above the windows with max opening if you wanted to avoid draughts. Dont know if that was Mk1, Mk2 or both.

Was the toilet occupied illuminated sign a Mk2 thing or did some Mk1's have them?

Here's the first ever Mk2 showing double sliding windows. https://www.flickr.com/photos/elettra1143/7046128371/in/photostream/

I think only the first FKs had these, and were also the only Mk2s in maroon (disregarding heritage repaints).

I believe both Mk1s and Mk2s had the sign saying something like "open to here for draught-free ventilation".

I don't recall any Mk1s with the illuminated "engaged" sign, but I may be wrong.

 

[Sun Chariot]

Here's the first ever Mk2 showing double sliding windows. https://www.flickr.com/photos/elettra1143/7046128371/in/photostream/

I think only the first FKs had these, and were also the only Mk2s in maroon (disregarding heritage repaints).

I believe both Mk1s and Mk2s had the sign saying something like "open to here for draught-free ventilation".

I don't recall any Mk1s with the illuminated "engaged" sign, but I may be wrong.

Yes, the prototype FK 13252 (on the Mid Norfolk Railway) and the production FKs (released in LM + E maroon, S green; then from late 1960s painted BR blue-grey) had Mk1 type end gangways and sliding inter-carriage doors; and they had four piece top lights (2 middle sections opened, outer 2 sections were fixed). They were vacuum braked.
One of my Waverley Route books, includes two pictures of a Gresley V2 hauling a tour, with two blue-grey Mk2 TSOs at the front.

Yes, the Mk1s and the pressure ventilated Mk2 fleets had the toplight opening marker and wording as you describe.

You're right, Mk1s did not have 'toilet status' illuminated sign in the saloon / the vestibule.

 

[Bevan Price]

For a very short time, one of the Newcastle - Liverpool diagrams was worked by Mark2 Air-Con stock, but it soon reverted to non-aircon stock. Forget the date, but it must have been after the introduction of HSTs.

 

[hexagon789]

For a very short time, one of the Newcastle - Liverpool diagrams was worked by Mark2 Air-Con stock, but it soon reverted to non-aircon stock. Forget the date, but it must have been after the introduction of HSTs.

1981-82 timetable I believe.

2D FKs appeared in about 86-87, Heaton had five of them allocated at one point.

 

[Springs Branch]

A quick oddball question . . .

• How were Mk 1 coaches referred to before there was a Mk 2 (and then subsequent generations)?

Were they referred to as "Mark 1" from their introduction?
Or did the 'version control' thing only come in from the early 1960s, when the Mk 2 concept came onto the horizon?

For example, during the 1950s, when they would have been replacing Big Four-era rolling stock, were Mk 1s routinely known as "BR Standard carriages" or something similar - in the same way there were BR Standard steam locos?

It would seem odd to call something a 'Mark 1' when there was no immediate visibility of later generations (e.g. Apple didn't promote their Mk.1 iPhone when first launching it in 2007)

 

[Taunton]

Mk1 were indeed generally called "BR Standard stock" before Mk 2 came along (and for a while afterwards). Same happened with Mk 2, produced for a few years as was, then the next was Mk 2a, 2b, etc, the whole lot generally Mk 2 but no distinguishing term for the first ones. Someone later (who?) devised the term Mk 2z for these, but I don't think from any official basis.

 

[eastwestdivide]

Someone later (who?) devised the term Mk 2z for these, but I don't think from any official basis.

Didn’t the Z usage derive from the introduction of design TOPS codes? Need to find my RCTS coaching stock books from around 1980-odd to confirm the codes.

edit: TOPS codes around 1984, according to LTSV at

Rail Data Article

www.ltsv.com

too much to quote in its entirety but

When passenger-carrying coaches eventually gained TOPS codes in 1984, a different method was used. The third character was a number to indicate the class of accommodation (1 for first class, 2 for second/standard, 3 for composite, 4 for unclassified and 5 for none), while the fourth indicated the design of the coach. When BR introduced a new coach design in 1963 it was called the Mark 2, and the previous standard design was retrospectively named the Mark 1. Variations of the Mark 2 followed (2A, 2B etc up to 2F), then the 75ft long Mark 3. For the TOPS codes, Mark 1s were indicated by a 1, Mark 2s by a Z, Marks 2A to 2F by a letter A to F and finally G and H for Mark 3/3A and Mark 3B respectively. The digit 0 was used for older stock, such as preserved pre-nationalisation coaches. So, a Mark 1 Kitchen Buffet (RKB) would now be classified as an AK51, and a Mark 2E Open First as AD1E. The new codes were applied in full on the coach ends, usually together with the old operating code.

 

[Ken H]

We havent explored whick Mk2s were Vacuum braked, air braked or dual fitted.
And were they all fitted for Electric Train Heating, or were there any early ones that had steam or dual heat?
Was there any steam haulage of Mk2's

 

[hexagon789]

A quick oddball question . . .

• How were Mk 1 coaches referred to before there was a Mk 2 (and then subsequent generations)?

Were they referred to as "Mark 1" from their introduction?
Or did the 'version control' thing only come in from the early 1960s, when the Mk 2 concept came onto the horizon?

For example, during the 1950s, when they would have been replacing Big Four-era rolling stock, were Mk 1s routinely known as "BR Standard carriages" or something similar - in the same way there were BR Standard steam locos?

It would seem odd to call something a 'Mark 1' when there was no immediate visibility of later generations (e.g. Apple didn't promote their Mk.1 iPhone when first launching it in 2007)

As Taunton says, the Mk1 was referred to as BR Standard Stock when new. Essentially each "Mark" is simply a new variant Standard stock.

Someone later (who?) devised the term Mk 2z for these, but I don't think from any official basis.

The 2Z designation was official but I forget when it was first used. Certainly it appears in diagram books so was not a made up enthusiast term or anything like that.

We havent explored whick Mk2s were Vacuum braked, air braked or dual fitted.

2Z - vacuum as new
2A-F - air-braked as new

Some 2Z were converted to air and some 2A FK and BFK were converted to vacuum in the 70s for use in Scotland.

There are no dual braked Mk2s, the location of equipment and design of the braking system means there is no readily available space to make a Mk2 dual braked. (I understand one vehicle has been so equipped in preservation, but its not clear how this has been done.)

And were they all fitted for Electric Train Heating, or were there any early ones that had steam or dual heat?

All dual heat up to and including Mk2C. On the earliest vehicles the electric heat was often uncomissioned until it could actually be used.

Was there any steam haulage of Mk2's

Yes, there was. Both railtours/specials and some service trains.

 

[Springs Branch]

This image in the Harvey Scowcroft Collection on Flickr shows Mk2(z) BSO no. M9395 forming part of a steam-hauled Party Special for Williams Deacon's Bank in March 1968.

Also, in the same Harvey Scowcroft collection is this photo, allegedly of a timetabled Euston to Blackpool Summer SO train in 1967, taken just north of Wigan. Hauled by Black Five 44775 and seemingly formed of more-or-less all Mk.2 stock (buffet car excepted). Presumably a rake purloined from the newly electric Euston - Manchester/Liverpool services of that era, with the Kingmoor kettle having taken over from an electric at Crewe.

 

[Beebman]

A colour photo album I have entitled 'Northern Steam Finale' by Barrie Walker (published in 1986 by Jane's) has a few pictures of relevance to this thread:

p.26: 44888 hauling a railtour (undated) near Kenyon Jct made up of a variety of LMS and Mk1 stock with a Mk2(z) TSO as the third coach
p.45: another railtour (Sept 24th 1966), double-headed by 42574 & 42644 at Betws-y-coed, with the visible coaches being Mk1s except for the first coach which is a Mk2(z) BSO
p.53: the same railtour at Rhuddlan, now hauled by 42942, with the whole train now visible and there's actually two Mk2(z) BSOs, one at either end of the Mk1s

 

[WesternLancer]

Haven't there been pics on here in last year or two (or links to such pics) of green painted Mk2 stock being hauled on service trains by West Country Class steam locos in the final days of southern steam on Southampton or Bournemouth express services.

 

[AY1975]

@Springs Branch my grey cells recall the tapered tables in Mk2d, rectangular tables in Mk2f. I cannot for the life of me recall what shape the Mk2e tables were.

As I recall the Mark 2Es had the same tables as the 2Ds.

The 2Ds and 2Es were very similar in many ways, except that the 2Ds had red end gangway folding doors and their external doors were also red on the inside (just like the 2Bs and 2Cs) whereas on the 2Es and 2Fs the gangway doors and insides of the external doors were white or off-white.

The 2Es and 2Fs also had smaller toilet compartments with a luggage stack opposite, and the 2E and 2F Tourist Second Opens had the toilet compartments diagonally opposite each other, rather than on the same side of the coach, so they were both on the right-hand side of the coach as you looked towards the end gangway, whereas the Mark 2E and 2F Open Firsts still had them on the same side of the coach (one at each end) as did the Mark 2B, 2C and 2D TSOs.

Presumably when the older Mark 2s up to and including the 2Ds were built, it was thought that just the spaces between the seat backs would be enough for most suitcases, and that passengers with larger items of luggage could put them in the guard's compartment (or even use the luggage in advance service), but by the time the 2Es and 2Fs were being designed and ordered, BR realised that just the spaces between the seat backs were not enough and that more passengers preferred to keep their luggage as close to their seats as possible, hence the decision to put luggage stacks at either ends of the saloons on the 2Es and 2Fs.

 

[sh24]

Haven't there been pics on here in last year or two (or links to such pics) of green painted Mk2 stock being hauled on service trains by West Country Class steam locos in the final days of southern steam on Southampton or Bournemouth express services.

Yes, and also a Western hauling a Hawksworth coach coupled to a Mk2Z FK.

 

[The exile]

Hated the “mid Mk 2s” (suspect C-E) after years of what would now be thought of as Cross-country type services down from Scotland on the WCML. Awful air quality coupled with weird, headache inducing whining background noises.

 

[Sun Chariot]

To build on post #80:
Attached are screen shots from RMWeb, of an informative post by member Flood, describing the external differences between 2d, 2e 2f and vehicle / batch variation within each.

Fliood's RMWeb post covers BFK and BSO variants; however I did not take screen shots at that time, as those variants were not in my modelling interest.

 

[eastwestdivide]

For more into, here's the link to the thread from which the screenshots above were taken:

https://www.rmweb.co.uk/forums/topic/68714-mk2-air-conditioned-coaches-detail-differences/

 

[Taunton]

The Mk 2Z were vacuum braked and could readily be (and were) marshalled often indiscriminately with Standard Mk 1 stock, including a short overlap with steam locomotives. When the Mk 2a came along, first on ECML services billed as "high speed", which should really have been "high speed stopping", they had to be in custom rakes, and restaurant vehicles and vans had to be adapted to suit, building of these having stopped.

It is generally impractical to have dual braking equipment, air/vacuum, on a passenger coach, both from shortage of space and also difficulties with making them do the same thing, such as fully releasing the brakes when changing from one method to the other. A few were done; St Rollox works did a (Mk 1) BCK conversion, dual brakes, dual heat, every type of accommodation, all combinations, a unique vehicle stationed at Carstairs for trains dividing for Glasgow and Edinburgh where one portion or the other might turn up lacking some aspect needed to continue, but it was a one-off. Well done their drawing office for working out how to do it.

The stock for the 1971 Edinburgh-Glasgow 2x27 Push-Pull was original Mk 2Z from the WCML, converted from vacuum to air braking for the rapid stops, particularly at Haymarket and midway at Falkirk High, without which the new rapid timings and short turnrounds could not be assured. They had been used mostly with ETH on the WCML, then on coming to the Push-Pull they were initially steam heated, a couple of years later the locos were converted to ETH but the ETH equipment on the coaches had not been used for a while, and there was a period of burning smells, short circuits, blown fuses and all until overcome.

All prior to the air-con vehicles had dual heating. This had been standard on the final years builds of the Mk 1 as well, brought about initially by the WCML electrification, which were really the first passenger locos without steam heat capability

 

[Sun Chariot]

For more into, here's the link to the thread from which the screenshots above were taken:

https://www.rmweb.co.uk/forums/topic/68714-mk2-air-conditioned-coaches-detail-differences/

Nice one - many thanks for that

 

[edwin_m]

The stock for the 1971 Edinburgh-Glasgow 2x27 Push-Pull was original Mk 2Z from the WCML, converted from vacuum to air braking for the rapid stops

These were disc braked, whereas as far as I know all other Mk2s and anything else using B4 bogies had tread brakes.

 

[hexagon789]

These were disc braked, whereas as far as I know all other Mk2s and anything else using B4 bogies had tread brakes.

The 310 and 312 EMUs also had disc braked variants of the B4 bogie design.

A rake of Mk2As used on the 0900 King's Cross-Newcastle and 15xx return in the late-60s was equipped with disc brakes for test purposes, including the carriage set's allocated catering vehicle and BG.

 

[Rescars]

How far through the Mk2 series did those coffin-shaped tables go?

Did they make it all the way through to the Mk2F design (as built), or did the last of the variants transition to Mk3-style rectangular tables?

I didn't mind those tapered tables back in the day. The convenience of easier in and out to the (required) window seat trumped any conceivable inconvenience from the lost few square inches of table area when forced to occupy an aisle seat.

All well and good as regards access, but my goodness, very tricky if you were trying to use the saloon as a dining car. Just not enough space for four proper place settings. Made serving and eating soup especially perilous!