Is a Steam ban 'Inevitable'?

[Johnny_w]

Reading this months 'Steam Railway' There is a letter having
a little Rant about the new build LNER P2.

He goes a little then utter the Title "Steam ban Inevitable"*

WHY?! Is it inevitable? I can't see it myself.

JW

 

[ainsworth74]

I'm not sure it's inevitable but my understanding is that Network Rail and the industry at large are getting more than a little fed up with the disruption that steam charters can cause. Not necessarily through things like that charter that started a load of line side fires on the ECML a few years ago (though I'm sure that didn't endear them to many!) but from enthusiasts behaviour when steam charters run.

There are videos and plenty of anecdotal evidence of people behaving like total prats when steam charters come through and I suspect that the first time there's an accident due to this then Network Rail will seriously look at whether or not they want to keep allowing steam traction on it's metals.

But like I said at the beginning I don't think it's inevitable but certainly it isn't beyond the realms of possibility.

 

[Moonshot]

I'm not sure it's inevitable but my understanding is that Network Rail and the industry at large are getting more than a little fed up with the disruption that steam charters can cause. Not necessarily through things like that charter that started a load of line side fires on the ECML a few years ago (though I'm sure that didn't endear them to many!) but from enthusiasts behaviour when steam charters run.

There are videos and plenty of anecdotal evidence of people behaving like total prats when steam charters come through and I suspect that the first time there's an accident due to this then Network Rail will seriously look at whether or not they want to keep allowing steam traction on it's metals.

But like I said at the beginning I don't think it's inevitable but certainly it isn't beyond the realms of possibility.

Cant see it being a great loss .......plenty of heritage lines to show off on....

 

[tsr]

Of course, steam locos are already banned from time to time if hot weather has caused vegetation in a given area to become very dry. This would not usually be across Britain, but in a specific area.

 

[Moonshot]

lack of drivers may be an issue in years to come ...... I ve already seen one heritage rail corporate report state to that effect

 

[Johnny_w]

Interesting thoughts guys.

Yes, enthusiast behaviour seems to be an issue from time to time - not sure how to handle that one.

Steam bans during summer seems very sensible and If it helps to resolve line-side-fires as a result of steam traction then great stuff.

Delay's are even more tricky - again not sure how that should be handled.

I've often lamented the idea of having an ID Scheme for enthusiasts that would allow us to be on teh station. Would also allow NR/TOC's/Station management to ban the idiots maybe?

Or am I talking out of my Donkey?

 

[jamieP]

I'm not sure it's inevitable but my understanding is that Network Rail and the industry at large are getting more than a little fed up with the disruption that steam charters can cause. Not necessarily through things like that charter that started a load of line side fires on the ECML a few years ago (though I'm sure that didn't endear them to many!) but from enthusiasts behaviour when steam charters run.

There are videos and plenty of anecdotal evidence of people behaving like total prats when steam charters come through and I suspect that the first time there's an accident due to this then Network Rail will seriously look at whether or not they want to keep allowing steam traction on it's metals.

But like I said at the beginning I don't think it's inevitable but certainly it isn't beyond the realms of possibility.

You might say that about NR but then they go asking a certian charter company to supple locos for snow ploughs ect so you cant have it both way. Rail grinding trains have caused just as many lineside fires as steam engines have its just steam trains make the news when they do. And people behaving like total prats when steam charters come through your find theres plenty of people who do that when out spotting normal trains its just they dont make the press.

But yes I do think the time will come were steam engines are no longer able to operate on the mainline. Possible small branch lines tho.

 

[Moonshot]

Locos for snow ploughs are not fare paying charters......

 

[ainsworth74]

You might say that about NR but then they go asking a certian charter company to supple locos for snow ploughs ect so you cant have it both way.

It Network Rail tell a charter company they can't use steam any more and that charter company then come back by saying 'we won't supply you locomotives for snow ploughs' then Network Rail will simply get someone else to do it. There are plenty of companies out there capable of supply locomotives.

Rail grinding trains have caused just as many lineside fires as steam engines have its just steam trains make the news when they do.

Rail grinding is vital for the network. Steam charters are not.

And people behaving like total prats when steam charters come through your find theres plenty of people who do that when out spotting normal trains its just they dont make the press.

As far as I'm aware there is a correlation between steam charters and outbreaks of idiocy greater than the background level of idiocy. It's worth considering that the likelihood is that steam charters act as a flame to a moth. So Network Rail and the industry might well take the view that if you remove the flame then you reduce the number of moths congregating.

 

[Johnny_w]

Isn't it easier to just remove the 'moths' though?

If there is genuine stupidity why arn't BTP dealing with it harshly?

Have to say that I've not personally witnessed anything though. Is the problem over-hyped?

 

[ainsworth74]

Isn't it easier to just remove the 'moths' though?

If there is genuine stupidity why arn't BTP dealing with it harshly?

How do you patrol the whole route of a charter that might cover several hundred miles? You can keep an eye on flashpoints (York for example) but a small shack or just a random piece of line side?

 

[Johnny_w]

How do you patrol the whole route of a charter that might cover several hundred miles? You can keep an eye on flashpoints (York for example) but a small shack or just a random piece of line side?

That's a fairpoint. Is a few moron's enough to impose a mainline steam ban one wonders....

Be a bloody shame too see it happen.

 

[ainsworth74]

Right now probably not, though if one of them goes and gets clipped by a train...

 

[ryan125hst]

Right now probably not, though if one of them goes and gets clipped by a train...

But how many people are killed, suicide or accidental, on the railways each year? Maybe we should just ban trains altogether?

Seriously though, I have heard of problems with enthusiasts at stations (remember the video of the guy who was millimetres away from that 170?). However, I'm sure similar problems occur (albeit for different reasons) for mainline trains. I wonder how many people come close to being hit by a train because they aren't standing behind the yellow line when a 125mph train storms through?

Likewise, a mainline train can cause just as much disruption as a steam train. Look at what happens when a class 91 brings the wires down.

I hope rail tours can stay for a while longer. I appreciate it will get more and more difficult to run then as locos and rolling stock get older and regulations get tougher, but it is our history and it would be a shame to see it stopped.

 

[Moonshot]

Do steam charters pay penalties if they are responsible for causing delays on the network?

 

[Harlesden]

A person standing in front of an open burning fire on a fast moving vehicle?
A vehicle that emits continuous streams of smoke into the environment?
A vehicle that causes fires in open countryside as it passes by?
Steam locomotives belong in museums or on private land where the owner of the land is responsible for any mishap or damage.
Deltic locomotives, although majestic and beautiful, are filthy beasts that emit bursts of black smoke into the air - but only when being started up from cold. Much more suitable for heritage use. I understans that six of these locomotives remain in running order.

 

[Teaboy1]

So Harseden, where does all this nice electricity come from out of the wires? Just because you dont see a PWR nuclear power station or a coal burner that generates tons of toxic waste does that make electric traction clean???
No Im afraid a few steamers out on the network a few times per year dont contribute to global warming. Having a few billion TV's on standby or a few billion mobile phones on charge does! Driving about or fly does most damage IMHO.

 

[broadgage]

Do steam charters pay penalties if they are responsible for causing delays on the network?

I believe that they do, but the amount payable is capped or limited to a figure that is sometimes substantialy less than it otherwise would be.

 

[yorksrob]

I think a lot of it comes down to societies inability to compute or compare risks. We know that in every walk of life people aren‘t rational beings and act in irrational ways. In some cases this will get that person injured or killed. Yet for some reason, the railway is expected to assume responsibility for anyone or anything that comes into contact with its geographical footprint, regardless of how irresponsible or negligable they may be.

 

[wbbminerals]

Let's not forget that idiots at stations aside, Network Rail have helped cause the disruption themselves too. Think about on the Scarborough Spa Express route why it's always the Scarborough line that has been set on fire this year. It's because Network Rail cut back the lineside, then left the chippings lying about! So it's then much easier for a spark to create a fire. Funny how the fires never seem to happen somewhere else on the route, where the lineside hasn't been 'pruned' for a long time.

 

[Crawley Ben]

Do steam charters pay penalties if they are responsible for causing delays on the network?

Current rate is £5,000 I believe unless I'm mistaken?

Ben (personally wouldn't want steam banned, just my own view on that subject)

 

[ainsworth74]

But how many people are killed, suicide or accidental, on the railways each year? Maybe we should just ban trains altogether?

Likewise, a mainline train can cause just as much disruption as a steam train. Look at what happens when a class 91 brings the wires down.

Services such as those operated by a 91 are vital. Steam charters are not. This is what it boils down to, steam is a luxury, if (I stress the 'if' as I'm not saying this is going to happen) Network Rail decide it's more trouble than it's worth then they will go. I hope they don't personally but I can certainly see it happening.

I hope rail tours can stay for a while longer.

I'd be very surprised if we saw an end to railtours and I suspect Network Rail might fall afoul of Open Access requirements if they tried. But steam hauled railtours could certainly be done away with if Network Rail so wished.

 

[Daimler]

I think the notion of a blanket 'steam ban' on the main line is extremely unlikely in the medium, even the medium-long term. It's worth looking at Network Rail management's approach to steam on the main line in relation to that of its predecessor(s) in British Rail. When you do this, you see that the steam railtour market has expanded significantly over the last decade and a half, and steam locomotives are a relatively common sight on our railways - even hauling the Royal Train on selected occasions.

The lengths to which railway management will go to arrange and accommodate steam specials now is extremely promising - look at the Underground 150 celebrations in January of this year, which saw a 19th century coal-burning steam locomotive haul a train of wooden bodied turn-of-the-century (and older) carriages through one of the most densely operated sections of railway in the country. And to show that this wasn't a simply an exceptional one-off, a repeat is planned (but this time from Hammersmith to Moorgate) for next year, in celebration of that line's anniversary.

That said, I do think that - assuming speeds and density of passenger operations on main lines increase in line with what might be expected - we shall see steam limited more to secondary routes in the future, simply because there may not be the space available to fit these special trains into the timetable.

 

[tsr]

Something else to note is that steam-hauled charters can attract considerable, positive attention from the local community near a station. It does encourage all sorts of well-meaning people onto stations, and some of those people may then become passengers on mainline or heritage lines in the vicinity. It's not just enthusiasts who might already be exhaustively familiar with local lines. For example, grandparents might take their grandkids to a station to see a steam train, and then end up paying a visit to one or two local preserved railways; there might be interest from historians, who then add to the area's local archives, encouraging more material for a tourist niche; or perhaps it could encourage station/TOC/NR staff to let local people onto the station to adopt it. You just never know how the railway economy & community can develop until it happens, and to remove a good opportunity for all this would be a shame.

 

[Johnny_w]

Lots of (mostly) sensible stuff.

Oof course the hoardes of people being blown up standing in front of open fires is horrendous :roll:

So it seems the letter writer too 'steam railways' has an axe too grind.

Thanks guys. I hope mainline steam and preserved/heritage locomotives are here too stay.

JW
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

So Harseden, where does all this nice electricity come from out of the wires? Just because you dont see a PWR nuclear power station or a coal burner that generates tons of toxic waste does that make electric traction clean???
No Im afraid a few steamers out on the network a few times per year dont contribute to global warming. Having a few billion TV's on standby or a few billion mobile phones on charge does! Driving about or fly does most damage IMHO.

Need a like button.

Well said.

 

[Chrisgr31]

As a daily commuter and found that only 2 trains in the last 3 weeks have been anything like on time because of leaves on the line can I request a steam train comes down the Uckfield and East Grinstead lines every day in the summer until all vegetation within about 200 yards of the track either side has been burnt away?

 

[yorksrob]

The lengths to which railway management will go to arrange and accommodate steam specials now is extremely promising - look at the Underground 150 celebrations in January of this year, which saw a 19th century coal-burning steam locomotive haul a train of wooden bodied turn-of-the-century (and older) carriages through one of the most densely operated sections of railway in the country. And to show that this wasn't a simply an exceptional one-off, a repeat is planned (but this time from Hammersmith to Moorgate) for next year, in celebration of that line's anniversary.

That said, I do think that - assuming speeds and density of passenger operations on main lines increase in line with what might be expected - we shall see steam limited more to secondary routes in the future, simply because there may not be the space available to fit these special trains into the timetable.

Some railway management. It is indeed impressive that a steam hauled, slam door, wooden bodied carriage can carry passengers on the Met.

Yet let‘s not forget that a main line registered VEP is still unable to operate tours on the main line. Poorly thought out and illogical bans are, unfortunately still very much a part of today‘s railway.

 

[Moonshot]

Yet let‘s not forget that a main line registered VEP is still unable to operate tours on the main line. Poorly thought out and illogical bans are, unfortunately still very much a part of today‘s railway.

Such as?

 

[Cheshire Rover]

I concur with Chrisgr31.
Nothing wrong with steam charters, or heritage diesels and electrics. A great many enthusiastically get great joy from them. I am a commuter and a heritage enthusiast. Both are compatible.

 

[Manchester77]

A person standing in front of an open burning fire on a fast moving vehicle?
A vehicle that emits continuous streams of smoke into the environment?
A vehicle that causes fires in open countryside as it passes by?
Steam locomotives belong in museums or on private land where the owner of the land is responsible for any mishap or damage.
Deltic locomotives, although majestic and beautiful, are filthy beasts that emit bursts of black smoke into the air - but only when being started up from cold. Much more suitable for heritage use. I understans that six of these locomotives remain in running order.

If deltics are so bad how come they've been hired out by various passenger operators (virgin) and freight (they've hauled metal trains as well as I believe 334s from refurbishment! Surely a deltic is no worse than nuclear trains hauled by 37s?)