Is Crossrail too fast?

[mrmartin]

Looking at some of the journey times it will beat existing central line journeys by a significant margin (it's often 50% quicker). Considering the trains are likely to be nicer (air conditioning, full mainline guage, etc), why would people get the central line still? Is it not going to risk having everyone move over leaving an incredibly busy service?

Does anyone have any % loading forecasts when it opens?

 

[ainsworth74]

Isn't the whole point to get people off the Central Line?

 

[NSEFAN]

Crossrail broadly replaces the Central line core, but if you've started your journey further out then it's probably not worth changing onto Crossrail once you get to central London.

 

[mrmartin]

Crossrail broadly replaces the Central line core, but if you've started your journey further out then it's probably not worth changing onto Crossrail once you get to central London.

Stratford I imagine will be a cross platform transfer (there might be others?). Many journeys will be >10 min quicker and at 12tph you are waiting on average 2.5min for a train, so you can save 10 mins by changing.
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Isn't the whole point to get people off the Central Line?

Yes, but are they not running the risk of getting too many people off and having a very overcrowded crossrail and a much more empty central line?

 

[NSEFAN]

Stratford I imagine will be a cross platform transfer (there might be others?). Many journeys will be >10 min quicker and at 12tph you are waiting on average 2.5min for a train, so you can save 10 mins by changing.

You would think so, but given how many passengers (especially at weekends) seem to be allergic to changing trains I don't think it will be a problem. I also suspect that journey planners like the TfL one would recommend remaining on the Central if you've come from the eastern end of the Central.

 

[WelshBluebird]

I'm not sure about London but in my experience most people elsewhere will favour slightly longer direct journeys than slightly quicker journeys that involve a change.

 

[swt_passenger]

Stratford I imagine will be a cross platform transfer (there might be others?).

It definitely will be cross platform, as CR are using the lines that already exist, without change; but it's also the only cross platform interchange of that nature on the whole CR network.

 

[cle]

Crossrail won't serve Bank, St Pauls, Chancery Lane, Holborn - and not Oxford Circus for interchanging, even though the double-ended stations of BS/TCR cover the area well. So I think the Central Line will still be busy enough!

Don't forget how quickly London is growing, and how many people avoid the tube who might come back.

 

[Sleepy]

OAP s etc. from East Anglia to West Country or Wales wishing to avoid tube could interchange at Stratford and Reading perhaps ?

 

[EbbwJunction1]

OAP s etc. from East Anglia to West Country or Wales wishing to avoid tube could interchange at Stratford and Reading perhaps ?

So if I was staying in the Waterloo area (which I do often), does this mean that I could travel from Newport to Waterloo via Reading and (say) Tottenham Court Road? If so, could I book a direct ticket for this route, or would I have to have a rail ticket to Waterloo and then a Crossrail / Underground ticket(s) for the rest for the journey?

 

[route:oxford]

So if I was staying in the Waterloo area (which I do often), does this mean that I could travel from Newport to Waterloo via Reading and (say) Tottenham Court Road? If so, could I book a direct ticket for this route, or would I have to have a rail ticket to Waterloo and then a Crossrail / Underground ticket(s) for the rest for the journey?

You can change at Reading at the moment for Waterloo if you prefer not to use the underground. Takes a little bit longer though.

Many people vigorously claim that nobody will want to change at Reading for Crossrail when they could stay on a faster train to Paddington - then switch to Crossrail.

I don't believe this will be true in practice.

Reading to Crossrail will be a straightforward platform change - people now have the data at their fingertips to be able to make the connection choice too. It will also save trekking around Paddington.

I think of it like my elderly parents travelling from Stirling to visit me in Oxford.

They could travel either via Edinburgh or Glasgow.

They choose Glasgow. Whilst the stations are a 5-10 minute walk apart - it's a step-free interchange at Glasgow for trolley cases and both stations are quite sheltered for waiting. Unlike multiple stairs and the side platforms which are bitterly cold.

 

[swt_passenger]

So if I was staying in the Waterloo area (which I do often), does this mean that I could travel from Newport to Waterloo via Reading and (say) Tottenham Court Road? If so, could I book a direct ticket for this route, or would I have to have a rail ticket to Waterloo and then a Crossrail / Underground ticket(s) for the rest for the journey?

I don't see any reason why the current fare to "London Zone U1" wouldn't work for this, in the situation where Crossrail is operational.

It would be odd if they withdrew the current through ticketing that works fine on the normal underground.

 

[Class 170101]

I thought the whole of Edinburgh Waverley was step free these days with lifts etc?

 

[me123]

I thought the whole of Edinburgh Waverley was step free these days with lifts etc?

Yes, it is! That said, whilst I can navigate the station with no problem, quite a large number of people find it confusing.

But back to Crossrail. As has been said, it's not stopping at some of the busiest stations and not offering all the connections that the Central Line will. So it'll probably do exactly what was intend - to ease the pressure from but not completely replace the Central Line.

 

[southern442]

The Central line's traffic will be partially diverted on to Crossrail, which is not a bad thing, as some sections of the Central line are very, very full with regards to capacity. However, Crossrail will not be serving Oxford Circus, a very busy interchange with services to Victoria and Waterloo, and it will also not be serving many areas of the City area, such as St. Pauls or Bank, so the Central line will still be very busy with traffic for these areas.

 

[HH]

I believe the GJT penalty for changing services is normally reckoned at 10 minutes, so it would seem that they got the speed just about right...

 

[deltic]

Looking at some of the journey times it will beat existing central line journeys by a significant margin (it's often 50% quicker). Considering the trains are likely to be nicer (air conditioning, full mainline guage, etc), why would people get the central line still? Is it not going to risk having everyone move over leaving an incredibly busy service?

Does anyone have any % loading forecasts when it opens?

The Crossrail business case estimates that loadings on the Central Line between Bank and Bond Street will be reduced by over 30% - as will loadings on the Jubillee line from Stratford to London Bridge. Between Bank and Stratford loadings are expected to reduce by 10 to 30%.

Passenger numbers are projected to be around 300,000 a day in each direction.

 

[WelshBluebird]

Many people vigorously claim that nobody will want to change at Reading for Crossrail when they could stay on a faster train to Paddington - then switch to Crossrail.

I don't think anyone is saying nobody will want to do that. But in practice the majority of people will not do it. As already said you can already do a cross platform change to get a Waterloo train at Reading, but I seriously doubt many people do that. Most people will avoid changing trains if possible. Some people will change trains, either to save time or because of luggage / mobility reasons, but most will stay on the original train if they can. Especially as I am assuming Journey Planners will likely not suggest changing trains unless necessary or instructed to.

 

[Bald Rick]

Also, the journey times quoted are (presumably) platform to platform. I can tell you from personal experience it is a looooooong way up to ground level from the Crossrail platforms at (eg) Paddington and Tottenham Court Road. Much longer than from the Central line at the latter for example.

Particularly when you have to use a staircase made from scaffolding.

 

[coppercapped]

You can change at Reading at the moment for Waterloo if you prefer not to use the underground. Takes a little bit longer though.

Many people vigorously claim that nobody will want to change at Reading for Crossrail when they could stay on a faster train to Paddington - then switch to Crossrail.

I don't believe this will be true in practice.

Reading to Crossrail will be a straightforward platform change - people now have the data at their fingertips to be able to make the connection choice too. It will also save trekking around Paddington.

Whether people change at Reading for Crossrail will depend on their individual journeys and their own preferences, but they should consider the situation as it will be.

On the basis of current planning, off-peak there will be two Crossrail trains per hour between Reading for London. These replace the two Reading terminators on the Relief lines. Essentially these call at all but a couple of the stations en route.

The Crossrail web site shows journey times to Paddington of 50 minutes compared to the fastest current (Intercity) time of 28 mins. However it also lists times to Bond Street and Tottenham Court Road which by Crossrail will be 51 or 52 mins and by the current service are 53 or 55 mins. but these times are by the existing Underground routing.

In other words after the expected acceleration on completion of engineering work and the introduction of the Hitachi trains on many services the fast trains will be some 30 minutes faster to Paddington than Crossrail.

There will be, off-peak, some 9 or 10 non-stop trains to London which call at Reading. This means that it will be about 30 mins faster to places like Bond Street if one remains on these trains and then changes to Crossrail at Paddington. The access to Crossrail under Eastbourne Terrace will be easy as the old ticket hall is being opened up leading directly from the concourse/circulating area to the Crossrail platforms. A seat is almost guaranteed as half the eastbound trains will start at Paddington.

So, changing off a fast, 125mph, train at Reading could involve a wait for anything up to 30 minutes (in which time the train one alighted from would have arrived at Paddington) in order to be able to travel in a stopping train with no toilets and a 90mph top speed. A change is necessary in either case - changing at Paddington will permit a faster journey.

 

[Bald Rick]

You can change at Reading at the moment for Waterloo if you prefer not to use the underground. Takes a little bit longer though.

Many people vigorously claim that nobody will want to change at Reading for Crossrail when they could stay on a faster train to Paddington - then switch to Crossrail.

I don't believe this will be true in practice.

Reading to Crossrail will be a straightforward platform change - people now have the data at their fingertips to be able to make the connection choice too. It will also save trekking around Paddington.

I think of it like my elderly parents travelling from Stirling to visit me in Oxford.

They could travel either via Edinburgh or Glasgow.

They choose Glasgow. Whilst the stations are a 5-10 minute walk apart - it's a step-free interchange at Glasgow for trolley cases and both stations are quite sheltered for waiting. Unlike multiple stairs and the side platforms which are bitterly cold.

I think most people, particularly the elderly, travelling from west of Reading to a Crossrail destination east of Paddington, will prefer a relatively comfy GWR seat, an onboard toilet and a 30 minute journey with a simple change at Paddington onto a 24tph service, than a 2tph service, and an hour long trip on a metro train 'sans facilities'.

(Seen previous post, great minds etc).

 

[ChiefPlanner]

Stratford I imagine will be a cross platform transfer (there might be others?). Many journeys will be >10 min quicker and at 12tph you are waiting on average 2.5min for a train, so you can save 10 mins by changing.
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Yes, but are they not running the risk of getting too many people off and having a very overcrowded crossrail and a much more empty central line?

One of the reasons why Thameslink is so infernally busy on the Sutton loop from Wimbledon and Tooting is that a certain % prefer a bigger / more airy train (at even 2 tph) than a very crowed , hot Northern line at 28 tph.

With reference to the Central line east section - the 1988 Central London Rail study (on which Crossrail was very largely based) - had crowding levels of over 230% then (remember - before Canary Wharf had increased to its present employment levels) - and the worst section was Leyton - Bank - we proved this several times by doing counts and even filming of the absolute carnage each am peak was - then with 1962TS and 1940 era signalling.

The extended Central Line of the !933 New Works Programme was the Crossrail of it's day (not finished to post WW2 of course) - and the new Crossrail is akin to a major development of this context - noting the fact that London has spread it's boundaries and is growing to a conurbation city / regional railway from Essex to Reading.

Much as you can compare the 1920's and unbuilt extension sections of the Northern Line to todays Thameslink plans - a N/S relief in general terms - enhanced of course one hopes by Crossrail 2.

Knew my 2 geography degrees and 36+ years of rail would be useful one fine September day.

 

[EbbwJunction1]

Thank you for your help with this.

 

[silverfoxcc]

What i would like to see, as a traveller from Twyford to Padd is a nice semi fast service either Crossrail or GWR that stops only at Maidenhead, Slough and Ealing Broadway. As the destination is Liv St Crossrail would be a no brainer, but would take the (mythical GWR semi fast service) and change at Padd
Still one can live in hope
If crossrail is going to stop at every station to Padd GWR would be onto a winner if a planner could come up with that.

 

[Dent]

One of the reasons why Thameslink is so infernally busy on the Sutton loop from Wimbledon and Tooting is that a certain % prefer a bigger / more airy train (at even 2 tph) than a very crowed , hot Northern line at 28 tph.

Surely the obvious reason that line is busy is that it is a suburban commuter route well within Greater London, yet only gets a two trains per hour.

The route between Wimbledon and Tooting is not even in direct competition with the Northern Line, since the Northern Line does not serve either of the same stations.

 

[samuelmorris]

To echo other comments, the Central line is extremely busy at almost all hours of the day - taking load off it (and in part, also off the North Circle) is exactly what's intended and something I will welcome.

 

[AM9]

The route between Wimbledon and Tooting is not even in direct competition with the Northern Line, since the Northern Line does not serve either of the same stations.

Passengers don't usually live in the stations that they use. Tooting is about 1Km from both Tooting Broadway and Colliers Wood so both well within the average commuters' walks to the station.
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To echo other comments, the Central line is extremely busy at almost all hours of the day - taking load off it (and in part, also off the North Circle) is exactly what's intended and something I will welcome.

I imagine that northern half of the Circle/Met/H&C line will benefit more than the Central. The flows from Paddington GWML services, from Victoria SE/SOU services via the Victoria line tube, Thameslink transfers at Farringdon and GE mainline form Liverpool St will make it a fast E-W distributor. The Central line will lose some load but it will by no means be 'empty' as has been suggested above.

 

[Chris M]

And there is significant supressed demand for the existing Central line services so any capacity generated will not be there for long.

I spent about four months commuting from Debden to an office near Old Street. Most days I used to walk from Liverpool Street as that was much nicer than the interchange at Bank (but not when it was raining hard). However the Central line trains were so crowded that it was not easy actually getting off them. On more than one occasion it took longer for me to get from my seat to the door at Liverpool Street than the doors were open (and there were so many people it was not physically possible to move earlier than when the doors opened), and one occasion I ended up at St. Paul's as I didn't manage to exit in time at Bank.

 

[ChiefPlanner]

Passengers don't usually live in the stations that they use. Tooting is about 1Km from both Tooting Broadway and Colliers Wood so both well within the average commuters' walks to the station.
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I imagine that northern half of the Circle/Met/H&C line will benefit more than the Central. The flows from Paddington GWML services, from Victoria SE/SOU services via the Victoria line tube, Thameslink transfers at Farringdon and GE mainline form Liverpool St will make it a fast E-W distributor. The Central line will lose some load but it will by no means be 'empty' as has been suggested above.

Relief of the Met main line and the H+C / Circle were also major factors in the evaluation of the original Crossrail. (then planned to cover both Aylesbury and Chesham !) - though frankly the costs of rebuilding the Met to then BR standards after a long period of decline and lack investment were very high - substandard clearances on the 4 track section in particular. I once walked during a possession from Rickmansworth to Harrow (on a s Sunday morning) and had all this pointed out in detail by one of the engineers.

 

[AM9]

Surely the title of this thread :"Is Crossrail too fast?" is a bit misleading. It's not so much the actual speed of the line that is seen as a problem by some, more it's convenience, which would also take into consideration the interchange experience, (potential) crowding and congestion experience and options in the case of delays/disruption.