Is electrification needed to avoid a DMU order by 2020?

[Chester1]

This is a bit of a hybrid infrastructure / rolling stock thread. Different aspects of this have been discussed in different threads. I don't want this to end up another whinge about pacers and North/South divide. I am interested in the numbers! On the assumption that all pacers are scrapped by 2020 and no new DMU order is made, how much (if any electrification) would be needed to have enough rolling stock? If so, which lines would be the most likely to be electrified to free up DMUs? My understanding is that there will be enough express DMUs and loco hauled sets and that the shortage will be for services that currently uses pacers and slower sprinters. Are there any "low hanging fruit" lines were allot of them are used and would be worth considering electrifying just to free up DMUs?

ATW has 15 pacers which are likely to be replaced by Valley lines electrification. FGW has 8 and are likely to have preferential treatment over Northern when DMUs become available and will be given 8 sprinters to replace the pacers. Northern Rail needs to replace 102 Pacers, leaving 125 Class 150s, 153s, 155s and 156s plus however many DMUs that can be obtained from other parts of the country. I have divided Northern Rail services into three groups, those that have no chance of electrification, those that might and those that are being electrified. There is a tendency on the forum to want to electrify everything now, which can't happen! However, I think its possible that the government will fund a few hundred million of extra electrification in order to replace the pacers and avoid a DMU order.

No chance:

Manchester Victoria/Airport - Wigan Wallgate/Southport/Kirkby,
Leeds - Morecambe/Lancaster
Colne - Blackpool South,
Cumbrian Coast,
Newcastle - Hexham/Middlesbrough,
Bishop Auckland/Darlington - Saltburn,
Middlesbrough - Hexham,
Manchester Victoria - Clitheroe
Manchester Piccadilly - Buxton
Preston - Ormskirk,
Newcastle - Carlisle,
Helsby - Ellsemere Port,
Middlesbrough - Whitby,
Middlesbrough - Carlisle

As a rough guess I estimate that these services need about 40 DMUs including spares. If the 153s are converted back into Class 150s to make sure there is enough capacity on rural lines then that would leave about 76 Northern DMUs left over for use on the more popular lines.

Some chance:

Chester - Manchester Piccadilly via Altrincham,
Manchester Piccadilly - New Mills Central/Rose Hill Marple/Sheffield
Leeds - Sheffield/York,
Metrocentre & Newcastle - Morpeth & Chathill,
Hull - York/Huddersfield
Leeds - Harrogate/York/Manchester Victoria (stopper)/Huddersfield/Sheffield/Wakefield Westgate - Huddersfield,
Sheffield - Scunthorpe/Lincoln
Manchester Victoria - Leeds/Selby,
Leeds/Wakefield Kirkgate - Knottingley
Leeds-Goole

Any ideas on the capacity needed for these lines? How many suitable DMUs could be obtained from other TOCs? Id guess that TPE should (eventually!) be able to obtain enough 158s, 170s and if necessary loco hauled sets to run its services. However, I doubt enough suitable DMUs can be found from Valley Lines, GW and MML electrification for Northern Rail by 2020 if 135 pacers are taken out of the equation. I think the Calder Valley and nearby lines would be a good option. Allot of slow Northern Rail services could be switched to EMUs and as a bonus, Grand Central would be able to switch to EMUs freeing up 10 Class 185s.

Electrification planned:

Liverpool Lime Street - Manchester Victoria/Manchester Oxford Road/ Wigan North Western/ Blackpool North/Warrington Bank Quay,
Huddersfield - Manchester Victoria,
Blackpool North - Manchester Victoria,
Preston - Hazel Grove

 

[Ironside]

I don't have the answer to you question but you might find it interesting to know (assuming you don't already) that battery trains are being trialled at the moment. These trains charge on an ac line and then can work on short branches or between gaps in electrified lines. If the trials are successful this will obviously help keep down the number of deisels required.

 

[HSTEd]

Batteries might just work on things like Rose Hill Marple and similar - but those are the routes that have the highest number of DMUs released per track kilometre of wire. So I don't think there is much gain there.

 

[AM9]

I think that the assumption that all pacers will be scrapped in 2020 is either to provide a thread challenge in juggling the numbers of DMUs or just wishful thinking. 142s maybe but I can't see all being retired.

 

[Chester1]

I don't have the answer to you question but you might find it interesting to know (assuming you don't already) that battery trains are being trialled at the moment. These trains charge on an ac line and then can work on short branches or between gaps in electrified lines. If the trials are successful this will obviously help keep down the number of deisels required.

Batteries might just work on things like Rose Hill Marple and similar - but those are the routes that have the highest number of DMUs released per track kilometre of wire. So I don't think there is much gain there.

I was aware of the trials but I very much doubt the technology will be ready for mass production and have enough range by 2020. If anything, its going to make a DMU order less likely because its highlighting that new DMUs will be out of date long before their useful working life is over. I reckon they probably be ready to replace sprinters in about 10-15 years time.

BTW will the DMU shortage help keep fares down by forcing the most effiecient use of rolling stock?

 

[joeykins82]

I'd have thought that FGW's pacers were more likely to be replaced by the 165/166 units displaced by GWML & Thames Valley electrification than they are by sprinters. Are there enough 165/166s that some 15x units would be freed up from FGW to go to Northern?

Manchester (Victoria & Guide Bridge) to York & Selby via Stalybridge, Huddersfield, Leeds & Garforth (plus Selby to ECML north & south) is confirmed and due by the end of 2018. Selby-Hull, York-Scarborough and Northallerton-Middlesborough all feel like logical additions based on the franchise map. DMUs running the bulk of their route under the wires feels particularly wasteful when there's a shortage!

One scheme that could free up some newer DMUs could be to extend some West Midlands electrification: Lichfield-Rugeley is a committed scheme, adding Wolverhampton-Shrewsbury and Bromsgrove-Worcester could make all of the London Midland services via New Street electric if the Hereford services were transferred to Snow Hill. There should be leftover 170s after accounting for the additional units required to extend some of the Snow Hill to Worcester terminators and allowing for stock required to run the Coventry-Nuneaton services. This would also allow for electric Euston to Shrewsbury services instead of Voyagers under the wires.

 

[Elecman]

Colne to Preston is separate from an infill from Kirkaham to Blackpool South

 

[GrimsbyPacer]

Hull is certain to get wires, Hull Trains have said they'll will fund it if the DfT don't.
Also a new DMU order looks likely, namely the D-Trains from Vivarail.
Even after electric wires are put up (behind schedule with Network Rail) there won't be enough DMUs to run services after a complete Pacer withdrawal as they number in the hundreds, no EMU order will match that.
So Porterbrook's will probably all be upgraded and the 142s scrapped.

But... I suspect that the realisation of a DMU shortage will prompt a new order. At the moment loco hauled services are needed on Cumbrian Coast line, this will become commonplace unless more DMUs are purchased.

 

[Ash Bridge]

I'd have thought that FGW's pacers were more likely to be replaced by the 165/166 units displaced by GWML & Thames Valley electrification than they are by sprinters. Are there enough 165/166s that some 15x units would be freed up from FGW to go to Northern.

I wonder what the odds are of those displaced FGW 143s finding their way back up to Northern land also? If they do I suppose looking on the bright(er) side they are rather superior to our current 142s e.g. decent seats brighter & updated fittings etc. and if there are enough to form x 2 or 3 unit formations plenty more additional seats. The main downside would be, would Northern maintain the interiors like FGW do now?

 

[Greybeard33]

BTW will the DMU shortage help keep fares down by forcing the most effiecient use of rolling stock?

More likely fares will be pushed up to reduce overcrowding on short formed services and keep the subsidies down! Law of supply and demand.

 

[SpacePhoenix]

How many 158/159s do SWT typically need to operate the Waterloo - Exeter St Davids route?

 

[thealexweb]

Why do you think there is no chance for the Atherton line? Looking beyond the Wigan Wallgate tunnel height issue, how much would it cost to electrify the gap between Hindley and Salford Crescent that will form once the Lostock Junction to Wigan North Western electrification has been completed?

Similarly any ideas on how much Carnforth to Barrow-in-Furness would cost? If done Transpennine North West would no longer need any DMUs at all.

 

[eisenach]

Bromsgrove-Worcester could make all of the London Midland services via New Street electric if the Hereford services were transferred to Snow Hill.

Why would you want to transfer the Hereford service to Snow Hill just so that all the New St. trains are electric. It's still the same train going to almost the same place, but with much inferior connectivity at Snow Hill.

 

[adrock1976]

Why would you want to transfer the Hereford service to Snow Hill just so that all the New St. trains are electric. It's still the same train going to almost the same place, but with much inferior connectivity at Snow Hill.

If timetabled reasonably, there could be the potential for a same platform interchange at Droitwich Spa.

In peace

Adam

 

[cjmillsnun]

This is a bit of a hybrid infrastructure / rolling stock thread. Different aspects of this have been discussed in different threads. I don't want this to end up another whinge about pacers and North/South divide. I am interested in the numbers! On the assumption that all pacers are scrapped by 2020 and no new DMU order is made, how much (if any electrification) would be needed to have enough rolling stock? If so, which lines would be the most likely to be electrified to free up DMUs? My understanding is that there will be enough express DMUs and loco hauled sets and that the shortage will be for services that currently uses pacers and slower sprinters. Are there any "low hanging fruit" lines were allot of them are used and would be worth considering electrifying just to free up DMUs?

ATW has 15 pacers which are likely to be replaced by Valley lines electrification. FGW has 8 and are likely to have preferential treatment over Northern when DMUs become available and will be given 8 sprinters to replace the pacers. Northern Rail needs to replace 102 Pacers, leaving 125 Class 150s, 153s, 155s and 156s plus however many DMUs that can be obtained from other parts of the country. I have divided Northern Rail services into three groups, those that have no chance of electrification, those that might and those that are being electrified. There is a tendency on the forum to want to electrify everything now, which can't happen! However, I think its possible that the government will fund a few hundred million of extra electrification in order to replace the pacers and avoid a DMU order.

No chance:

Manchester Victoria/Airport - Wigan Wallgate/Southport/Kirkby,
Leeds - Morecambe/Lancaster
Colne - Blackpool South,
Cumbrian Coast,
Newcastle - Hexham/Middlesbrough,
Bishop Auckland/Darlington - Saltburn,
Middlesbrough - Hexham,
Manchester Victoria - Clitheroe
Manchester Piccadilly - Buxton
Preston - Ormskirk,
Newcastle - Carlisle,
Helsby - Ellsemere Port,
Middlesbrough - Whitby,
Middlesbrough - Carlisle

As a rough guess I estimate that these services need about 40 DMUs including spares. If the 153s are converted back into Class 150s to make sure there is enough capacity on rural lines then that would leave about 76 Northern DMUs left over for use on the more popular lines.

Some chance:

Chester - Manchester Piccadilly via Altrincham,
Manchester Piccadilly - New Mills Central/Rose Hill Marple/Sheffield
Leeds - Sheffield/York,
Metrocentre & Newcastle - Morpeth & Chathill,
Hull - York/Huddersfield
Leeds - Harrogate/York/Manchester Victoria (stopper)/Huddersfield/Sheffield/Wakefield Westgate - Huddersfield,
Sheffield - Scunthorpe/Lincoln
Manchester Victoria - Leeds/Selby,
Leeds/Wakefield Kirkgate - Knottingley
Leeds-Goole

Any ideas on the capacity needed for these lines? How many suitable DMUs could be obtained from other TOCs? Id guess that TPE should (eventually!) be able to obtain enough 158s, 170s and if necessary loco hauled sets to run its services. However, I doubt enough suitable DMUs can be found from Valley Lines, GW and MML electrification for Northern Rail by 2020 if 135 pacers are taken out of the equation. I think the Calder Valley and nearby lines would be a good option. Allot of slow Northern Rail services could be switched to EMUs and as a bonus, Grand Central would be able to switch to EMUs freeing up 10 Class 185s.

Electrification planned:

Liverpool Lime Street - Manchester Victoria/Manchester Oxford Road/ Wigan North Western/ Blackpool North/Warrington Bank Quay,
Huddersfield - Manchester Victoria,
Blackpool North - Manchester Victoria,
Preston - Hazel Grove

Why would FGW need more DMUs? With the electrification, Networker Turbos are going to be freed up and deployed elsewhere on FGW. If anything you may find some sprinters are freed up by this and can be sent to Northern. Also, the 142s are going but the 143s and 144s are going to be around after 2020.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

How many 158/159s do SWT typically need to operate the Waterloo - Exeter St Davids route?

On the peak? most of them.

 

[The Ham]

How many 158/159s do SWT typically need to operate the Waterloo - Exeter St Davids route?

Pretty much all of thier fleet.

Depending on what happens in CP6 (2020-2025) with electrification to Salisbury (and beyond?) and what new fleet is obtained it could free up anything from 1/3 to all of their fleet of 41 DMU's. However much of that fleet will be about 30 to 35 years old during that time, so unlikely to have much life left after they are freed up.

 

[deltic08]

Why do you think there is no chance for the Atherton line? Looking beyond the Wigan Wallgate tunnel height issue, how much would it cost to electrify the gap between Hindley and Salford Crescent that will form once the Lostock Junction to Wigan North Western electrification has been completed?

Similarly any ideas on how much Carnforth to Barrow-in-Furness would cost? If done Transpennine North West would no longer need any DMUs at all.

Based on mileage for double track it should be £50-£55m but there are two long estuary viaducts and a tunnel so may be a little more. I would like to see electrification of this route added to the Northwest scheme after Windermere but extended to Millom which means electrifying the Barrow avoider route also.

I say Millom as there is a frequent bus service from here to Whitehaven to supplement the paucity of rail services north of Millom after the evening peak and on Sundays. If necessary diesel services could terminate at Millom with electric connections to Barrow and south thereof.

Modern signalling would allow more flexibility day and night throughout the Coast line

 

[johnnychips]

I say Millom as there is a frequent bus service from here to Whitehaven

There isn't! One Friday-only dial -a-ride service to Bootle, then nothing till Seascale with about four journeys a day to Egremont, connecting to Whitehaven.

http://www.cumbria.gov.uk/roads-tra...blictransport/busserv/timetables/copeland.asp

 

[tbtc]

I don't want this to end up another whinge about pacers and North/South divide

Hopefully not!

I think its possible that the government will fund a few hundred million of extra electrification in order to replace the pacers and avoid a DMU order

I can't see it.

First of all, the planned CP5 electrification ought to release over two hundred DMUs (based on existing commitments, not including "rumoured" bits like Hull). I know that things are already behind schedule and being pushed beyond April 2019, but on the assumption that everything promised gets done, we have:

• Scotland - at least fifty DMUs, maybe seventy five. I reckon there's around fifty DMUs replaced directly by electrification (e.g. the Falkirk High line needs sixteen DMUs at rush hour, the Dunblane/Alloa - Edinburgh/ Glasgow routes need a similar amount, add on "southside" electrification to places like East Kilbride, there\s Shotts... ) and maybe twenty five/ thirty replaced by the twenty seven HSTs.
  
• Valley Lines - around fifty DMUs (the off peak diagrams through Cardiff Queen Street need thirty three DMUs, not including Ebbw Vale/ Maesteg/ Swanlinel, not including doubled up DMUs, not including peak extras, not including maintenance, so I think fifty DMUs would be my benchmark from south Wales)
  
• Thames Valley - around fifty DMUs (in rough terms, you'll need about nine 165/166s for the Redhill/Gatwick services and one for the Greenford brach, but apart from that all 165/166s could be replaced by electrification)

...so that's over a hundred and fifty DMUs.

There's probably the best part of fifty DMUs in the "Lancashire Triangle" area (Manchester to Liverpool/ Wigan/ Preston/ Blackpool/ Windermere, Liverpool to Wigan/ Preston/ Blackpool) and I reckon around thirty from the Transpennine corridor (assuming the existing services to Middlesbrough/ Scarborough are reduced/chopped).

You could possibly get to another fifty if you added up all of the little schemes (GOBLIN, Marston Vale, Chase, Nuneaton to Coventry, a couple of 180s from FGW, converting the Manchester - Bournemouth XC service to EMU operation, the WCML franchise bringing in "baby Pendolini" to replace some of their Voyagers).

Around thirty in the East Midlands (the entire fleet of 222s plus the Sprinters used on the Leicester - Nottingham stopper).

So, I reckon over two hundred DMUs, maybe three hundred (note - I'm not including any HSTs replaced by electrification as they can be assumed as life expired or are earmarked for Scotland) - possibly more if some services are revised to reflect the new electrification map (e.g. Cardiff - Portsmouth becomes an EMU from Swansea/Cardiff to Bristol and a DMU from Bristol to Portsmouth).

So, if everything planned happens before CP5 ends in April 2019 (or at least by 31 December 2014) then we'll have enough DMUs to replace all Pacers. Bung in some D78s and there'll be plenty of DMUs.

However, a lot of the DMUs freed up are the wrong type for direct Pacer replacement (Voyagers, Meridians, 185s, 170s...) and all of the above is based on the assumption that he current plans do actually happen (given the delays and overspends, that's far from guaranteed).

Plus, there's the issue that Pacer replacement is only the first hurdle - we'll need to take large numbers of other DMUs out of service for months to upgrade them to accessibility standards (which won't be easy to arrange, given the numbers of Sprinters we are talking about), there's the future of 153s, there's a whole load of problems ahead of us (though I appreciate some will be fixated with Pacer replacement).

If you want "low hanging fruit" then there are a few lines with relatively frequent services (Warrington Central, Sheffield to Moorthorpe/Doncaster, Uckfield...) without having to worry about routes that only see an hourly service like Barrow in Furness.

However, I think we are better focussing resources on the schemes already committed to - if we are struggling to wire something like the Chat Moss line on time then adding additional schemes to Network Rail's "to do" list probably isn't going to help things.

 

[LeeLivery]

Electrifying the Uckfield, Marshlink and North Downs seems like a no-brainier to me. It would free up 16 Turbostars (+ more coming from ScotRail) and what 6-8 Turbos? With all the 700s coming into service soon Southern wouldn't need any extra Electrostars for the lines either. OHLE the Felixstowe branch would free up 1 or 2 DMUs - could just extend the hourly Ipswich - London service. I would electrify the Breckland Line too and extend the Liverpool Street to Cambridge semi fast to Norwich. That would free up to 6 Turbostars - but I know, wishful thinking.

It must be remembered London Overgrounds 172s (8 of them) will be up for grabs. Personally I think they will either be sent to Anglia with the 5 153s and a couple 156s being sent North or they will go straight to Chiltern (which by that time will be struggling without more than six extra 170s) to run its future Milton Keynes service - which seems to have absolutely no stock planned. In fact do they have any stock planned to run EWR before electrification? It seems logical for EWR to have OHLE installation brought forward (frees up a couple 153s too).

 

[David]

With CP5 electrification being mostly mainlines, CP6 (in my opinion) needs to be mostly about infill schemes that will displace the most DMUs. My suggestions are:

Anglia region. Peterborough - Ely - Norwich and Cambridge - Ipswich, plus the Sudbury and Felixstowe branches. You then only have Great Yarmouth and Lowestoft to worry about in the future, with the added benefit that the few DMUs required can be based at Crown Point to cover those lines.

Manchester. There are a lot of commuter services to the South East of the city which can all be switched to EMU operation in 1 go, freeing up a lot of DMUs. If Stockport - Chester is wired as well, that only leaves the Hope Valley to be wired at some point.

Yorkshire and Humber. All routes out of Sheffield and Leeds should be done, but there's a couple of questions. Should Sheffield - Lincoln be wired as well, and how far to you take the wires East of Doncaster? Scunthorpe, or all the way to Cleethorpes?

Other routes to be wired are Birmingham - Nuneaton - Leicester - Peterborough (with the Anglia electrification mentioned above), means all XC severices can go over to EMU operation, and Birmingham - Bristol (plus Cheltenham - Gloucester - Newport) so Manchester - Bristol and Nottingham - Cardiff services can go to EMU operation (using baby pendolini if needed).

Depending on the Electric Spine progress, Newcastle - Reading/Southampton could also go over to EMU operation.

I admit all of the above is ambitious for 1 control period, which means it will have to be spread over 2, but that's the bulk of the electrification needed, with everything else in the future being infill schemes.

 

[glbotu]

Is it worth sending "inappropriate" DMUs for services because they're better than anything/pacers.

For example, MML electrification displaces the 222s. Would they be worth sending over to Northern to run York to Blackpool North (for example), displacing some 158 to displace a pacer? Or even to TPE, displacing the 185 fleet to Northern Rail etc.

What would be the important issues in doing this, even for a short while, as the electrification occurs.

 

[thealexweb]

Based on mileage for double track it should be £50-£55m but there are two long estuary viaducts and a tunnel so may be a little more. I would like to see electrification of this route added to the Northwest scheme after Windermere but extended to Millom which means electrifying the Barrow avoider route also.

I say Millom as there is a frequent bus service from here to Whitehaven to supplement the paucity of rail services north of Millom after the evening peak and on Sundays. If necessary diesel services could terminate at Millom with electric connections to Barrow and south thereof.

Modern signalling would allow more flexibility day and night throughout the Coast line

Sounds like good value for money in the long run if it means not having to design and build more DMUs in the long run.

 

[pemma]

I think that the assumption that all pacers will be scrapped in 2020 is either to provide a thread challenge in juggling the numbers of DMUs or just wishful thinking. 142s maybe but I can't see all being retired.

Since 1994 the idea has been all trains will be fully accessible from 1st January 2020. For non-accessible trains to continue in operation after 31st December 2019 a temporary exemption order would have to be granted. Unless it's for a short delay in an electrification program or new rolling stock order e.g. a mid-January 2020 completion date instead of November 2019 completion date the granting of an exemption order would likely anger disability groups and led to legal challenges - the rail industry has had 25 years to prepare for it.

Angel Trains have said they have no plans to make the 142s complaint.

Porterbrook have said they have no plans to make the 153s complaint in single car formation. However, they have looked at the option of making 143s and 144s complaint which would reduce their capacity. As I've previously suggested I think Porterbrook might try and sell the 143/4s as a 153 replacement for routes which don't need the 120-150 seats a larger 2 car DMU would provide.

The likelihood of all Pacers, 150s and 153s lasting long beyond 2019 is low even without the disability requirements, they are all beyond their 25 year life expectancy and didn't have life extension work started early enough - one Northern 150 was found to have serious corrosion issues when sent for it's C6 and spent 18 months out-of-service.

 

[Ash Bridge]

Is it worth sending "inappropriate" DMUs for services because they're better than anything/pacers.

For example, MML electrification displaces the 222s. Would they be worth sending over to Northern to run York to Blackpool North (for example), displacing some 158 to displace a pacer? Or even to TPE, displacing the 185 fleet to Northern Rail etc.

What would be the important issues in doing this, even for a short while, as the electrification occurs.

As far as services like York-Blackpool North are concerned, I would imagine using Intercity/High speed units such as 222s is a non-starter primarily because of expense of operation (high fuel consumption etc.) a little more suited to TPE perhaps, but then again the door configuration is hardly ideal.

 

[pemma]

Is it worth sending "inappropriate" DMUs for services because they're better than anything/pacers.

For example, MML electrification displaces the 222s. Would they be worth sending over to Northern to run York to Blackpool North (for example), displacing some 158 to displace a pacer? Or even to TPE, displacing the 185 fleet to Northern Rail etc.

What would be the important issues in doing this, even for a short while, as the electrification occurs.

An order of self-powered trains for regional routes in CP6 is under consideration. Self-powered could mean diesel, diesel-electric, electric with battery, powered by unicorn excrement or anything else. The reason for regional routes is because the cost of a new design of train for rural lines can't be justified. However, they (Network Rail/ATOC/DfT) have said the new regional trains should be suitable to cascade down to rural routes which are unlikely to ever be electrified.

 

[47802]

Until we get more info regarding the timescale of TPX electrification and what's happening with Northern and new franchise this is all speculation which has been covered at length in previous threads on Pacer replacement and EMU cascades etc.

 

[snowball]

On the assumption that all pacers are scrapped by 2020 and no new DMU order is made, how much (if any electrification) would be needed to have enough rolling stock? If so, which lines would be the most likely to be electrified to free up DMUs? My understanding is that there will be enough express DMUs and loco hauled sets and that the shortage will be for services that currently uses pacers and slower sprinters. Are there any "low hanging fruit" lines were allot of them are used and would be worth considering electrifying just to free up DMUs?

[snip]

However, I think its possible that the government will fund a few hundred million of extra electrification in order to replace the pacers and avoid a DMU order.

My answer to the general premise of this thread is that I strongly suspect that NR and its contractors will be fully occupied until 2020 completing already committed electrification schemes, so any decisions taken from now on will have no effects on the ground until after 2020.

Some chance:

Manchester Victoria - Leeds/Selby,

That's supposed to be committed already.

 

[Emyr]

That's supposed to be committed already.

There's a difference between commitment in terms of placing it on a works backlog, and commitment to deliver it by a deadline. That begs the question of resources, and the lead time to secure more resources (delivering new cabling plant, training new OHLE engineers, etc).

 

[edwin_m]

I wonder if any Transport Secretary will be brave enough to stand up and announce that some non-compliant trains will stay in use for a year or two after 2020, because of delays to electrification and the large cost of accessibility mods for a very short remaining life.