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Is it compulsory to put your ticket through a ticket barrier?
- Thread starter CaptainHaddock
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AnonymousUser1
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however the parking firms don't have ATOC / RSP / ORCATS to provide carrots and sticks to enable interoperability
Thank you for that suggestion. I'm quite happy with paper tickets.
I have no knowledge of, and no interest in, downloading an app.
Curiously, despite this gap in my skills I've been catching trains for half a century ...
GatwickDepress
Established Member
I had a season ticket with applied equivalent to a scholar discount, for college, and as a result it would never work in any barrier. As I needed to show the accompanying local authority card with it, it was always easier for me to show my ticket directly to the gateline staff.
Obviously situations like that are in the minority, but I'd have been pretty frustrated if the member of gateline staff insisted I put my season ticket through the barriers first every time.
Obviously situations like that are in the minority, but I'd have been pretty frustrated if the member of gateline staff insisted I put my season ticket through the barriers first every time.
DynamicSpirit
Established Member
I suspect that idea originates because, in the 21st century, many devices cannot, in fact, be trusted to retain their power. All sorts of reasons can cause a battery to unexpectedly go flat. Poor signal. Badly behaving app. Device decides it's time to install updates. Etc. I've been caught out lots of times when I've been out and wanted to make a phone call or something. I'd be very reluctant to rely on a smart ticket on my phone for exactly that reason.
I'd say very few opportunities if you're out shopping or wandering around town, or on a train or bus that has no power sockets, or visiting offices etc. as a visitor (i.e. you don't work there).
And give you another thing to have to carry around (and not all phones are easy to open to replace the battery), plus the extra effort of making sure the battery pack itself is charged.
No thanks. Paper tickets for me until technology becomes a lot better/more reliable. (And before you ask, my job is: I'm a computer programmer). Besides, if you need to claim expenses, you usually need a real, paper, ticket, as evidence (although perhaps that may change).
Out of interest, where do you work? the only time I've ever heard anyone refer to themselves as a 'computer programmer' and not 'software engineer' or software developer in the past 10 years is glorified web developers.
DynamicSpirit
Established Member
Used to work for an estate agents, then a financial services company, now self-employed. And I mainly do C# coding for Windows apps.
In terms of terminology, I think you're correct that few people in IT use 'computer programmer' these days. Personally, I think it's a somewhat more suitable description for use on a public forum since it's more likely to be understood by non-programmers - so I'm happy to be in a minority in that regard! Both 'software developer' and 'software engineer' seem to me like unnecessary use of jargon. Fine if you're talking to other people who work in the same field. but not really appropriate otherwise.
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Report on BBC website this morning - Forged rail tickets sold on 'dark web', BBC investigation reveals
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-37800623
The article states The web-seller said the magnetic strips would not work but rail staff would still let passengers through the barriers. The fake tickets were used on 12 occasions, and each time they failed to be accepted by the barriers, but BBC reporters were allowed through without any questions asked.
I wonder if the earlier news report got hold of the wrong end of the stick?
The gates are to check tickets not to control passenger flow.
When placing a safety case for installation of barriers the maximum current & projected passenger flow rates (including a margin for emergencies) is taken into account.
Gates have an emergency open function in the control office which opens them all & keeps them open in particularly congested times, this is another reason why barriers are manned at all times (or certainly should be!).
I'm afraid I was one of those annoying jobsworths for many years who insisted (if time allowed) on removing seasons from their wallets, I had 6 faked seasons in 1 year once -'cut & pritt stick' specials that fell apart when taken out of the plastic.
Barrier staff are on near minimum wage contracts, working outside (albeit under cover) and getting the majority of the flak (that all railway staff get to some degree or another) without any power to stop this, it should be no wonder that many are demotivated and simply attend work and do their shift without any proactivity.
They get all the blame and none of the credit -toc managment, for the most part, would rather that less people complained than the staff actively stopped everyone they thought needed checking.
If anything should be learnt from the BBC's story it's that:
a) The 99% of honest ticket holders who insist on using the wide manual gate are merely helping others to defraud the system using faked tickets as it's impossible to check all such tickets because of the numbers using it -catch 22.
b) The gates software needs to be programmed correctly and updated to allow them to read all tickets they are likely to 'see'.
c) Ticket encoding strips need to be better and more robust.
d) The Tocs need to start investigating traffic flows to re-train & support staff, rather than merely admonishing staff who stop and investigate passengers who then claim they were being 'rude'.
When placing a safety case for installation of barriers the maximum current & projected passenger flow rates (including a margin for emergencies) is taken into account.
Gates have an emergency open function in the control office which opens them all & keeps them open in particularly congested times, this is another reason why barriers are manned at all times (or certainly should be!).
I'm afraid I was one of those annoying jobsworths for many years who insisted (if time allowed) on removing seasons from their wallets, I had 6 faked seasons in 1 year once -'cut & pritt stick' specials that fell apart when taken out of the plastic.
Barrier staff are on near minimum wage contracts, working outside (albeit under cover) and getting the majority of the flak (that all railway staff get to some degree or another) without any power to stop this, it should be no wonder that many are demotivated and simply attend work and do their shift without any proactivity.
They get all the blame and none of the credit -toc managment, for the most part, would rather that less people complained than the staff actively stopped everyone they thought needed checking.
If anything should be learnt from the BBC's story it's that:
a) The 99% of honest ticket holders who insist on using the wide manual gate are merely helping others to defraud the system using faked tickets as it's impossible to check all such tickets because of the numbers using it -catch 22.
b) The gates software needs to be programmed correctly and updated to allow them to read all tickets they are likely to 'see'.
c) Ticket encoding strips need to be better and more robust.
d) The Tocs need to start investigating traffic flows to re-train & support staff, rather than merely admonishing staff who stop and investigate passengers who then claim they were being 'rude'.
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Old Yard Dog
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When changing trains at places like Liverpool Lime Street holding a through long distance ticket (from stations on the Wirral Line), I am very reluctant to put my ticket through barrier at the exit to the underground station in case I don't get it back. I am probably worrying unnecessarily but the staff on the barrier always let me through.
CaptainHaddock
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Assuming this was aimed at me (as I'm the OP), the issue here isn't that I "can't be bothered" to use the ticket barrier, it's that I know putting my season ticket through said barrier twice a day will damage it and make it unreadable within a matter of weeks. If the TOC can come up with a barrier that does not damage season tickets I will be quite happy to use it.
Can you tell me where in the NRCoT it says that? The actual wording: “You must show and, if asked to do so by the staff of a Train Company, hand over for inspection your Ticket and any Railcard, photocard or other form of personal identication which your Ticket requires” makes no reference to having to use a ticket barrier when there is another legitimate means of exit from the station.
Astonished this debate is still going on. It's over whether a ticket has to go through a barrier.
If a member of staff asks you to put the ticket in the barrier, just do it and don't argue the toss. Ain't nobody got time to argue about dat.
If a member of staff asks you to put the ticket in the barrier, just do it and don't argue the toss. Ain't nobody got time to argue about dat.
other than the member of staff wasting their time insisting on someone putting a ticket through the barrier apparently.
again, where is the requirement to use a ticket in the ticket reader to pass through the barrier in the NCoT?
Unless you need to keep the ticket to claim expenses, season ticket gets damaged etc etc etc!
route:oxford
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I've had 4 barriers fail on me with original tickets over the last few days.
Entering platforms at Edinburgh
Entering platforms at Stirling
Exiting platforms at Edinburgh
Exiting platforms at Kings X
There was a queue building at Kings X and just one member of staff dealing with failed tickets so I was forced to push through a barrier.
"Plane Stupid" - you don't have BA checking your ticket after you've disembarked.
Entering platforms at Edinburgh
Entering platforms at Stirling
Exiting platforms at Edinburgh
Exiting platforms at Kings X
There was a queue building at Kings X and just one member of staff dealing with failed tickets so I was forced to push through a barrier.
"Plane Stupid" - you don't have BA checking your ticket after you've disembarked.
To be fair, you don't often have people boarding the plane mid-flight.
You're required to hand it over for inspection. If you do the staff member is perfectly entitled then to pass it through the barrier before handing it back to you.
It's perfectly reasonable for railway staff to ask that you use a barrier, as it's the most effective way to check tickets quickly. If everyone demanded a visual inspection you would need a huge number of additional staff. My season ticket needs replacement one or twice a year. It's hardly a big deal.
You missed out the bit where the staff member has to open the gate to retrieve the ticket which has been incorrectly retained, exactly as you told them would happen when you explained why you did not want to put the ticket through in the first place.
Why does there have to be a requirement?
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
The ticket doesn't belong to the passenger and there's no right to actually keep it. Just saying.
Why does there have to be a requirement?
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
The ticket doesn't belong to the passenger and there's no right to actually keep it. Just saying.
Well yes strictly speaking you're right but I don't think it's unreasonable to want to keep the ticket to claim expenses and most barrier staff are quite cooperative about it.
dcsprior
Member
I believe the magstripe on train tickets is brown in colour rather than black? If so, they're probably low coercivity - i.e. they're easily encoded by a TVM, but also easily wiped by repeated use through a barrier.
Some more information is in the wikipedia article on magstripes: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magnetic_stripe_card#Magnetic_stripe_coercivity
How's about this for an idea:
- Whatever combination of data uniquely identifies a ticket (is it 9 chars - three each for origin / destination / type?) each location could have a whitelist which are definitely valid and a blacklist which are definitely invalid.
- When someone puts a ticket through which is on neither the blacklist or whitelist, it could apply some very simple logic to identify a small proportion for manual checking and let the vast majority through. Either way, the ticket should be added to a greylist
- Entries on the greylist should all be reviewed soon after being added to it by someone who properly understands ticketing, then moved to either the blacklist or whitelist.
- There should be a way for people to have a blacklisted ticket type independently reviewed - perhaps with financial penalties for TOCs who incorrectly blacklist tickets.
Unless the barriers are online, managing the lists becomes unwieldy very quickly due to frequent changes to both the routing guide and periodic updates to the fares database.
so that I know whats required - otherwise I don't appreciate being unnecessarily delayed and hassled even though I have met the requirement of providing my ticket for inspection, as required by the NCoT.
EM2
Established Member
But the only delay and hassle is because you don't want to use the gate. If you present your ticket to staff, they are well within their rights to inspect it to the nth degree if they so wish.
If you put it in the gate, the gate opens and you go on your way.
Colly405
Member
Regarding expenses, the HMRC requirement is for receipts, therefore by requesting a receipt when purchasing the tickets, and retaining it for the expenses claim, will meet their needs. Unless, of course, the company has differing (unnecessary) requirements.
Think about it, it is the receipt, not what you've purchased, that is used for everything else - you wouldn't submit the Tesco sandwich, you'd submit the receipt that says you bought a Tesco sandwich...
Think about it, it is the receipt, not what you've purchased, that is used for everything else - you wouldn't submit the Tesco sandwich, you'd submit the receipt that says you bought a Tesco sandwich...
We've had this discussion numerous times and you are correct - some (many?) companies have policies that are at odds with HMRC's requirements. I think the main issue is that ticket machine receipts only state how much was spent but not the actual ticket that was bought and some employers don't trust their employees.
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