• Our booking engine at tickets.railforums.co.uk (powered by TrainSplit) helps support the running of the forum with every ticket purchase! Find out more and ask any questions/give us feedback in this thread!

Is it time to relax the 2m social distancing guideline? (WHO guidance is 1m)

What change do you think should happen to social distancing guidelines?


  • Total voters
    268
Status
Not open for further replies.
Sponsor Post - registered members do not see these adverts; click here to register, or click here to log in
R

RailUK Forums

The Ham

Established Member
Joined
6 Jul 2012
Messages
10,283
Completely unenforceable and impractical.

1 m from 1/6 and then normal from July. We need to get back to normal.

Given the rules being applied for schools I suspect that the relaxing to 1m for everyone isn't likely to happen without seeing the impact of the changes to the schools.

Chances are they'd going to be at least a few weeks from the start of opening of schools to see the impact on that before much else is done.
 

Bletchleyite

Veteran Member
Joined
20 Oct 2014
Messages
97,540
Location
"Marston Vale mafia"
That's just overcomplicated. The bubble thing only works if it's one bubble that treats itself as one household - i.e. if one person in the bubble becomes sick everyone self-isolates for 14 days. That's the whole point of it.
 

The Ham

Established Member
Joined
6 Jul 2012
Messages
10,283
Exactly - the more people there are out and about the less practical social distancing becomes.

Whist that's true there's still going to be the potential for there to be quite a few fewer people around.

For instance those working in offices are likely to, at least part time, be encouraged to work from home for some time. That's in addition to those companies who bring it in for their staff as a company wide thing.
 

The Ham

Established Member
Joined
6 Jul 2012
Messages
10,283
That's just overcomplicated. The bubble thing only works if it's one bubble that treats itself as one household - i.e. if one person in the bubble becomes sick everyone self-isolates for 14 days. That's the whole point of it.

Yes, but once the number of infections are low having a limit on the number of bubbles which people are interacting in makes track and trace easier.

It allows us to return to something more like normality sooner than would otherwise be the case, which shows businesses to get on with revising the economy. However it also provides those who want to be cut off from as many as possible the reassurance that the risk of them catching it is still very low.
 

thejuggler

Member
Joined
8 Jan 2016
Messages
1,186
As Weston Super Mare hospital is now closed after now experiencing a spike in cases just two weeks after people flocked there for VE day I wonder if anyone wanting to relax the guidance is having a rethink?
 

yorksrob

Veteran Member
Joined
6 Aug 2009
Messages
38,818
Location
Yorks
As Weston Super Mare hospital is now closed after now experiencing a spike in cases just two weeks after people flocked there for VE day I wonder if anyone wanting to relax the guidance is having a rethink?

Not in terms of reducing the 2m rule. This is different from allowing people to "flock" to places.
 

The Ham

Established Member
Joined
6 Jul 2012
Messages
10,283
Not in terms of reducing the 2m rule. This is different from allowing people to "flock" to places.

Although any relaxation would be seen as a relaxation of lockdown and so is likely to result in more cases.

Especially given that people will find it hard to identify what 1m looks like and so will probably end up breaching boundaries putting themselves at higher than needed risk.

Whilst keeping with 2m for now with the potential for bubbles, with trying to maintain 1m within them, allows there to be an opening up of the economy without the spread being very large and contact tracing being much easier.

It could even be that the announcement is that because these areas have maintained social distancing then within these areas you can now have 3 bubbles and there's plans to expand this to 4 in a few weeks time is cars stay low, with one of these bubbles being able to be a pub if you don't need it for another reason.

For these other areas as there's still a noticeable number of cases which would indicate that you've not been social distancing then the number of bubbles stays as two (home and work/school only) with police forces continuing to investigate.

That gives a fairly good incentive for everyone to adhere to the rules, especially those whose companies are going to struggle until they can start getting more customers through the doors.

However it also encourages those within the more relaxed areas to adhere to their rules as they wouldn't want to have to go backwards should there be an increase in cases.

Of course there will still be those who ignore the rules, and that had to be built into the expectations of the rate of spread - of its not then we need to worry for our freedoms.
 

yorksrob

Veteran Member
Joined
6 Aug 2009
Messages
38,818
Location
Yorks
Although any relaxation would be seen as a relaxation of lockdown and so is likely to result in more cases.

Especially given that people will find it hard to identify what 1m looks like and so will probably end up breaching boundaries putting themselves at higher than needed risk.

Whilst keeping with 2m for now with the potential for bubbles, with trying to maintain 1m within them, allows there to be an opening up of the economy without the spread being very large and contact tracing being much easier.

It could even be that the announcement is that because these areas have maintained social distancing then within these areas you can now have 3 bubbles and there's plans to expand this to 4 in a few weeks time is cars stay low, with one of these bubbles being able to be a pub if you don't need it for another reason.

For these other areas as there's still a noticeable number of cases which would indicate that you've not been social distancing then the number of bubbles stays as two (home and work/school only) with police forces continuing to investigate.

That gives a fairly good incentive for everyone to adhere to the rules, especially those whose companies are going to struggle until they can start getting more customers through the doors.

However it also encourages those within the more relaxed areas to adhere to their rules as they wouldn't want to have to go backwards should there be an increase in cases.

Of course there will still be those who ignore the rules, and that had to be built into the expectations of the rate of spread - of its not then we need to worry for our freedoms.

I personally don't think it's any more difficult to envisage 1m than 2m. If the eminently sensible approach suggested up thread to substitute 1m for "arms length" were taken up, it would be even easier to envisage. 2m is just a millstone around the neck of society, which would be better off working out ways to effectively space people and reduce risk in the many scenarios where 2m will be impractical.
 

BJames

Established Member
Joined
27 Jan 2018
Messages
1,359
If you can envisage 2 metres you can envisage 1 metre. It's half of the distance you had before. I'm not for the bubbles idea, it's far too complicated (reference: the backlash once the slogan was changed to Stay Alert/Control The Virus - the public can't deal with these confusing ideas). Besides, the idea of a bubble creates too many unenforcable policy changes, and too much difficulty around who would be in what bubble.
 

The Ham

Established Member
Joined
6 Jul 2012
Messages
10,283
If you can envisage 2 metres you can envisage 1 metre. It's half of the distance you had before. I'm not for the bubbles idea, it's far too complicated (reference: the backlash once the slogan was changed to Stay Alert/Control The Virus - the public can't deal with these confusing ideas). Besides, the idea of a bubble creates too many unenforcable policy changes, and too much difficulty around who would be in what bubble.

However that's the problem, few can actually identity what 1m looks like. The other problem is that a reduction to 1m distances would be a longer time coming than many would like if it's a blanket rule.

Even saying arms length wouldn't be that helpful, as from the tip of my fingers to my nose is about 70cm and I'm not short (1.8m tall). Even so you can only just touch each others outstretched arms then that's more than 1m but not a whole lot less than 2m.

Bubbles are fairly easy to explain, your household was your first bubble. Your place of work is another. Children at school are going into another.

Basically they are small groups within which social distancing can be relaxed to the 1m distance, this is so that track and trace is easier and the risk of infection remains fairly low.

Ultimately the question is would you like bubbles to be brought in earlier (say) mid July or the 1m rule to be brought in later (say) October to December?

As it's unlikely that we'd be looking at these being brought in at the same time.

That does however lead to the follow up question, what's the next step if the rate of infection does increase?

With the 1m rule you've got to re-educate everyone to working to 2m, with bubbles you just have to inform then their bubble number reduces.

However the impact on the economy of another hard lockdown would likely be much worse than being a bit more cautious about things now. That's the balance which needs to be achieved.

If we stay in lockdown too long with little scope for businesses to trade then that's a problem, if we release all restrictions then there's likely to be another wave. Those countries who have been able to do track and trace and lots of testing are doing OK in getting back to normal.

Reducing to 1m wouldn't aid in achieving this. Whilst bubbles would, as the numbers of people we each interact with would be limited and so not only would the number of cases would likely be lower but the number of people that would have to be contacted would be lower.
 

CaptainHaddock

Established Member
Joined
10 Feb 2011
Messages
2,206
However that's the problem, few can actually identity what 1m looks like. The other problem is that a reduction to 1m distances would be a longer time coming than many would like if it's a blanket rule.

Even saying arms length wouldn't be that helpful, as from the tip of my fingers to my nose is about 70cm and I'm not short (1.8m tall). Even so you can only just touch each others outstretched arms then that's more than 1m but not a whole lot less than 2m.

Bubbles are fairly easy to explain, your household was your first bubble. Your place of work is another. Children at school are going into another.

Basically they are small groups within which social distancing can be relaxed to the 1m distance, this is so that track and trace is easier and the risk of infection remains fairly low.

Ultimately the question is would you like bubbles to be brought in earlier (say) mid July or the 1m rule to be brought in later (say) October to December?

As it's unlikely that we'd be looking at these being brought in at the same time.

That does however lead to the follow up question, what's the next step if the rate of infection does increase?

With the 1m rule you've got to re-educate everyone to working to 2m, with bubbles you just have to inform then their bubble number reduces.

However the impact on the economy of another hard lockdown would likely be much worse than being a bit more cautious about things now. That's the balance which needs to be achieved.

If we stay in lockdown too long with little scope for businesses to trade then that's a problem, if we release all restrictions then there's likely to be another wave. Those countries who have been able to do track and trace and lots of testing are doing OK in getting back to normal.

Reducing to 1m wouldn't aid in achieving this. Whilst bubbles would, as the numbers of people we each interact with would be limited and so not only would the number of cases would likely be lower but the number of people that would have to be contacted would be lower.


If it's all as confusing as you say maybe it would make more sense to scrap social distancing altogether and replace it with a simple slogan like "respect other people's personal space"?
 

yorkie

Forum Staff
Staff Member
Administrator
Joined
6 Jun 2005
Messages
67,434
Location
Yorkshire
Let's keep this thread on the topic of the social distancing guidelines; there is a separate thread for discussion regarding ideas for venues to reopen.

As for the 2m rule, I did a 11 mile long walk with another forum member today and on multiple occasions it was clear that most people are treating it as 1m already and that 2m is often impractical. So it really just needs to be made official ASAP.

Those who seemed to be taking it the most seriously weren't even satisfied with 2 metres, but those people are very much the minority now. They are the sort who will jump into roads, placing themselves in much more danger.
 

Mag_seven

Forum Staff
Staff Member
Global Moderator
Joined
1 Sep 2014
Messages
9,994
Location
here to eternity
I'm finding its difficult enough when walking on your own especially when two or more people come towards you and there are people behind you walking at different paces etc. It is not sustainable as more and more people are out and about.
 

Bletchleyite

Veteran Member
Joined
20 Oct 2014
Messages
97,540
Location
"Marston Vale mafia"
I'm finding its difficult enough when walking on your own especially when two or more people come towards you and there are people behind you walking at different paces etc. It is not sustainable as more and more people are out and about.

Most people are now just going to the sides of the path if that. That is probably no real problem - just passing someone is very low risk.

The common cold has a similar R-value to COVID19 and is sometimes caused by coronaviruses so spreads in a very similar way. When I have one (typically about 5 per year, but an upside of lockdown is I haven't had one since March! :) ), I can pretty much always identify where it came from, and it's always someone who I've spent significant time sitting next to.
 

infobleep

Veteran Member
Joined
27 Feb 2011
Messages
12,556
1.5 metres isn't something that Joe Public can recognise easily. I think we'd be far better to forget about specific distances and just say don't get within touching distance of anyone else, i.e. the length of your arm. It approximates to a metre for the average person and is very simple which is clearly what Joe Public wants. Just a matter of respecting personal space.
True but then it wasn't 1m because they felt the general public could not ecognise 1m.

Tim doubt that has changed.

When I measured out 2m, someone I know was surprised at how much closer it was than they thought. I measured this out when at one point they came to drop off food. I'm in the moderate risk group.

When I'm on the nearby hill side, I'm fairly sure I over estimate the 2m as the area is so vast. 2m there seems longer than it really is. Still, no harm done in over estimating, in this case.
 

fraser158

Member
Joined
7 Feb 2011
Messages
156
Location
Inverness
Boris Johnson has just said to the Liaison Committee that "My own hope...is that as we make progress in getting the virus down--in reducing the incidence--that we will be able to reduce that distance..."
 

MikeWM

Established Member
Joined
26 Mar 2010
Messages
4,382
Location
Ely
Changing to 1.5m would be highly inconvenient given all the spray-painted symbols they've put on railway platforms that are (presumably) 2m apart :)

If it goes to 1m, that is obviously much easier to deal with...

(I saw a sign outside a supermarket yesterday that claimed 'the government recommends keeping 1m apart for social distancing'. Their other signs said 2m - so was that a typo, an error, or inside information for the future? ;)
 

Peter Mugridge

Veteran Member
Joined
8 Apr 2010
Messages
14,753
Location
Epsom
(I saw a sign outside a supermarket yesterday that claimed 'the government recommends keeping 1m apart for social distancing'. Their other signs said 2m - so was that a typo, an error, or inside information for the future? ;)

That's exactly the same as what I reported seeing in a supermarket the other day in another thread ( can't remember which one now... ); there were newer looking signs saying 1m as well as pre-existing 2m signs.

Interesting...
 

Bletchleyite

Veteran Member
Joined
20 Oct 2014
Messages
97,540
Location
"Marston Vale mafia"
One thing of considerable note in the new "track and trace" documentation is thus:


What we will ask you

We will ask you:


  • if you have family members or other household members living with you. In line with the medical advice they must remain in self-isolation for the rest of the 14-day period from when your symptoms began
  • if you have had any close contact with anyone other than members of your household. We are interested in in the 48 hours before you developed symptoms and the time since you developed symptoms. Close contact means:
    • having face-to-face contact with someone (less than 1 metre away)
    • spending more than 15 minutes within 2 metres of someone
    • travelling in a car or other small vehicle with someone (even on a short journey) or close to them on a plane
  • if you work in – or have recently visited – a setting with other people (for example, a GP surgery, a school or a workplace)

This would seem to strongly imply a loosening at some point, and notes that the bit between 1m and 2m is only of interest if you were inside that for more than 15 minutes. Also, it would seem to imply that sitting with your back to someone or the other side of, say, a seat back, doesn't count either, as I certainly wouldn't call that "face to face contact".

If the track and trace system isn't interested outside of that, that does strongly imply risk is low outside of that.
 

yorkie

Forum Staff
Staff Member
Administrator
Joined
6 Jun 2005
Messages
67,434
Location
Yorkshire
That's exactly the same as what I reported seeing in a supermarket the other day in another thread ( can't remember which one now... ); there were newer looking signs saying 1m as well as pre-existing 2m signs.

Interesting...
That sounds promising. I really hope we see a severe outbreak of common sense soon! ;)
 

yorkie

Forum Staff
Staff Member
Administrator
Joined
6 Jun 2005
Messages
67,434
Location
Yorkshire
Whoever is making these signs would love a change as they will all have to be re-ordered !!!
Not really; there is no harm in having 2m notices when the rules relax to 1m. These are guidelines after all. The main problem with sticking to 2m is that it makes many businesses unviable, especially those which may reopen in July, and potentially some of those that are due to open on 15 June too.

If we don't get a relaxation on 1st June, then it would be good to see a relaxation from 15 June. If we don't get that, well it has to happen from 1 July surely. By then hardly anyone will actually be bothering with it anyway as most people are sticking to 1m right now in my experience anyway.
 

Butts

Veteran Member
Joined
16 Jan 2011
Messages
11,323
Location
Stirlingshire
Not really; there is no harm in having 2m notices when the rules relax to 1m. These are guidelines after all. The main problem with sticking to 2m is that it makes many businesses unviable, especially those which may reopen in July, and potentially some of those that are due to open on 15 June too.

If we don't get a relaxation on 1st June, then it would be good to see a relaxation from 15 June. If we don't get that, well it has to happen from 1 July surely. By then hardly anyone will actually be bothering with it anyway as most people are sticking to 1m right now in my experience anyway.

Okay the ones who originally made the 2m signs must have done quite well !!

If social distancing was thought to be that effective why was it not made mandatory at whatever distance chosen ?
 

Huntergreed

Established Member
Associate Staff
Events Co-ordinator
Joined
16 Jan 2016
Messages
3,019
Location
Dumfries
It sounds like the 2m distancing is here to stay for at least another few weeks according to today’s briefing.

I’m beginning to think there maybe won’t be a reduction, with obvious consequences, they seem very insistent on 2m.
 

Class 33

Established Member
Joined
14 Aug 2009
Messages
2,362
If we don't get a relaxation on 1st June, then it would be good to see a relaxation from 15 June. If we don't get that, well it has to happen from 1 July surely. By then hardly anyone will actually be bothering with it anyway as most people are sticking to 1m right now in my experience anyway.

Indeed. It's getting increasingly more challenging now to remain 2 meters away from every one when walking about, especially in cities. Lots more people are out walking now and lots more traffic on the roads. So it's not so easy to step out onto the roads when walking along narrow pavements and someone is walking towards you. Come 15th June when a lot of the shops and more businesses re-open, it will fast become near impossible to always remain 2 meters away from anyone! Keeping to 2 meter social distancing will become completely unsustainable! It will have to be significantly relaxed or scrapped altogether by 1st July.
 

CaptainHaddock

Established Member
Joined
10 Feb 2011
Messages
2,206
It sounds like the 2m distancing is here to stay for at least another few weeks according to today’s briefing.

I’m beginning to think there maybe won’t be a reduction, with obvious consequences, they seem very insistent on 2m.

An opportunity missed at today's briefing, I think.

And the new easement allowing groups of six people to meet outdoors means each group will need a space 10m X 10m. You'll struggle to find that much space in a park or on a beach, never mind in your own garden!
 

Silverlinky

Member
Joined
3 Feb 2012
Messages
680
Only if everyone is from a different family! If its three from one and three from another or three couples for example the space needed will be less than above!
 

Llanigraham

Established Member
Joined
23 Mar 2013
Messages
6,074
Location
Powys
An opportunity missed at today's briefing, I think.

And the new easement allowing groups of six people to meet outdoors means each group will need a space 10m X 10m. You'll struggle to find that much space in a park or on a beach, never mind in your own garden!
I think you have misunderstood the ruling.
It means that each group, called a bubble by some, have to keep 2m between them. Not each individual.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Top