Is passenger comfort on trains getting increasingly worse?

[physics34]

I would imagine the benefits case wouldn't be there. HVAC is very efficient, and (IIRC) more more economical than the drag from open hopper windows. Of course, it can warm as well as cool.



Quite. For example, I love the 387 seating, which puts me in a very small minority!



Some of this will be CYA legal stuff, some of this will be genuinely useful to sight impaired and other vulnerable passengers. I always put usability features to the "Mother-in-Law" test. My M-i-L is in her 80s and travels frequently by train. New ticket machines are completely out the question for her, for example. She travelled on 317 a couple of years ago, visiting us (instead of the usual 365) and completely missed the stop, due to the muted announcements, poor visibility, doors being on the opposite side to those expected and, then, buttons that were hard to press. Some of the features may be annoying, but they really help quite a wide range of passengers who otherwise wouldn't be able to travel.



Oh god, tell me about it. Lighting is a bugbear of mine. I don't know why there is a current trend for lighting everything up with 100000W LEDs like you're being interrogated, but it causes some of us real problems (the flicker/hue/intensity of LEDs are a massive migraine trigger for me, can leave me in intense pain for hours). You can counteract it with special glasses, but only to a certain extent.



I suspect the rise of the hybrid commuter/inter-city service has a lot to do with this. That's partly down to geography, partly to capacity, but when you don't have vestibules, you don't have separation. However, you do need the accessible toilets to be, well, accessible without forcing wheelchair users to sit in a doorway for the entire journey.



I'm not really fussed about luxury - luxury costs too much. I just want a bit more space to spread out into. Maybe there's room for a 'premium economy' offering for the likes of me?



A bit of a cop-out, IMO.

The love for 387 seating lol..each to their own... this coincides with the poor suspension and sway issues with them. A bit more cushioning or sprung seats would make a big improvement.

The legal requirements for the PA and chimes etc is fully understandable, but i think most of us agree it is overkill at the moment.

Luxury is great and is often just a few small improvements that make the overall experience better....cost really shouldnt be an issue on something that lasts decades. We are not talking about installing entertainment systems or providing free meals which would cost.

I FULLY agree with a Premium economy on Intercity routes. Should be trialled.

EPBs and other Mk1s had very poor ride quality at times, but this was softened by sprung seats and many people now look back at them with fondness because you didnt have to get the blood flow going in you legs again when you stood up which you have to now!

 

[Bletchleyite]

I might well be interested in a premium economy. What are people thinking? 2+2 but at First Class spacing (and therefore window aligned) perhaps?

 

[stut]

I might well be interested in a premium economy. What are people thinking? 2+2 but at First Class spacing (and therefore window aligned) perhaps?

Well, ideally for me, it would be no-frills 1st. 2+1, full spacing. No anti-macassars, no free food or drink, no free wi-fi, no lounges.

But I doubt that would fly, so extra legroom is a good start

 

[Bletchleyite]

TBH I think all 1st should be 1.5-1.6 x Standard with no more freebies than tea/coffee/water if that. So your premium economy is what I would have as First Class.

I think, to be honest, I'd rather have 2+1 at Standard spacing than 2+2 at First Class spacing but either would be good.

 

[physics34]

TBH I think all 1st should be 1.5-1.6 x Standard with no more freebies than tea/coffee/water if that. So your premium economy is what I would have as First Class.

I think, to be honest, I'd rather have 2+1 at Standard spacing than 2+2 at First Class spacing but either would be good.

2+1 seating would be a no-no considering they already want to cram as many people in. Extra leg room is adequate

 

[Bletchleyite]

2+1 seating would be a no-no considering they already want to cram as many people in. Extra leg room is adequate

The whole point of Premium Economy is *not* cramming people in.

 

[physics34]

The whole point of Premium Economy is *not* cramming people in.

yes but 2+2 seating with legroom would be more economical for TOCs that 2+1 seating.

 

[otomous]

I don't know about customer comfort getting worse but general customer service is getting worse.

Unless you board at the starting station, the train will almost certainly be full of litter when you get to your seat. That's true even when traveling in first class.

I never understand why it's so difficult for train staff to have a walk through with a bin bag inviting customers to dispose of their rubbish.

I never understand why it's so difficult for passengers to dispose of their rubbish in a bin or take it away with them rather than expect someone else to clear up after them. No excuses. Every piece of litter is there because someone chose to leave it.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I never understand why it's so difficult for passengers to dispose of their rubbish in a bin or take it away with them rather than expect someone else to clear up after them. No excuses. Every piece of litter is there because someone chose to leave it.

TOCs can help that one, as some have (SWR being one), by putting large, prominent bins in the vestibules rather than hiding them behind seat backs or putting the ones in the vestibules so low down it's awkward to use them without causing delay on alighting.

 

[Dougal2345]

I never understand why it's so difficult for passengers to dispose of their rubbish in a bin or take it away with them rather than expect someone else to clear up after them. No excuses. Every piece of litter is there because someone chose to leave it.

On the other hand, it can cause vexation when there's a queue of people through the vestibule and coach disembarking from a train, and people in the queue are stopping to stuff their rubbish in the bin as they pass, holding everyone else up...

[oh, I see Bletcheyite has made a similar point above, sorry. On a similar note though, it's a shame 444s don't have bins in the cab-end vestibules, I can understand that people won't always want to fight their way along the length of a crowded coach and back in order to dispose of their stuff.]

 

[Bletchleyite]

On the other hand, it can cause vexation when there's a queue of people through the vestibule and coach disembarking from a train, and people in the queue are stopping to stuff their rubbish in the bin as they pass, holding everyone else up...

If a large bin is placed in the vestibule this problem is avoided, as it's much easier to "put it in", as the old slogan used to go, no fighting with the lid or having to bend over to reach it. Pendolino bins are particuarly bad in both regards. SWR 450s and the LM 350/3s have decent ones.

 

[ooo]

I've noticed a lot of moaning about the lack of table seats. Unless I'm traveling in a group personally I prefer airline seating as you can stretch your legs out more (other people's don't get in the way) and you get your own table (if someone has a laptop etc it often takes up most of the table)

 

[BestWestern]

Regarding litter, most of the bins that I have ever encountered on British trains are incapable of handling much of the rubbish that is found aboard. The lids of larger paper coffee cups, wider plastic drinks bottles and all manner of plastic lunch packaging for salads etc, often tend not to fit. The result being either stuff jammed in the top, dumped adjacent, or understandably just left somewhere else. There's also the knowledge that a train will almost certainly be boarded by cleaners if it is nearing a major terminus. Indeed I've left items on tables etc before if travelling to the end point of the service, knowing that a cleaner will probably be stood waiting to board as I'm alighting. What does irritate me are those who feel the need to 'play' with their litter, jamming it down the sides of seats or spreading food leftovers all over the place. It must annoy the cleaning staff a great deal more!

 

[physics34]

I never understand why it's so difficult for passengers to dispose of their rubbish in a bin or take it away with them rather than expect someone else to clear up after them. No excuses. Every piece of litter is there because someone chose to leave it.

because they were not pushed to do it when they were younger. We are creatures of habit. A society thing generally.

 

[WelshBluebird]

because they were not pushed to do it when they were younger. We are creatures of habit. A society thing generally.

I'd almost go as far as to say they were pushed to NOT dispose of their own litter because there certainly was a time when bins etc were actively removed from many public areas include railway stations and onboard trains.

 

[yorksrob]

The love for 387 seating lol..each to their own... this coincides with the poor suspension and sway issues with them. A bit more cushioning or sprung seats would make a big improvement.

The legal requirements for the PA and chimes etc is fully understandable, but i think most of us agree it is overkill at the moment.

Luxury is great and is often just a few small improvements that make the overall experience better....cost really shouldnt be an issue on something that lasts decades. We are not talking about installing entertainment systems or providing free meals which would cost.

I FULLY agree with a Premium economy on Intercity routes. Should be trialled.

EPBs and other Mk1s had very poor ride quality at times, but this was softened by sprung seats and many people now look back at them with fondness because you didnt have to get the blood flow going in you legs again when you stood up which you have to now!

Additionally it didn't take an age to get out the door at your destination.

 

[47271]

History repeats itself.

I don't remember when mk3s appeared first but my dad tells me that he watched a piece on Nationwide or some other news programme of the era and some old retired colonel type straight out of the 1930s was moaning about comfort standards on new trains.

As he recalls, and he's doing this at 40 years distance, the guy was unhappy about seats not lining up with windows and 'horrible small hard plasticky seats that are completely the wrong shape for any normal person to sit in'.

I wonder if the generation before that wrote to The Times complaining about the awful comfort offered by the latest type of carriage offered by the London Midland & Scottish Railway?

 

[robbeech]

Likely some generations back there were complaints (not on a forum) about poor quality saddles.

 

[jimm]

I've noticed a lot of moaning about the lack of table seats. Unless I'm traveling in a group personally I prefer airline seating as you can stretch your legs out more (other people's don't get in the way) and you get your own table (if someone has a laptop etc it often takes up most of the table)

On my train home this afternoon, the guy sat across the aisle had a laptop, laptop case, newspaper, takeaway coffee cup, glasses and his coat strewn across the table, plus his bag on the seat beside him... got the desired result, as no one else sat there all the way from Paddington to Oxford on a busy 180.

 

[xotGD]

Can't beat a Mark 1 for comfort.

VTEC seem to be thinking about some sort of Premium Economy that will only be for 'Business Travellers'. The implied attraction being that you won't be sitting in the same coach as chavs. Or put it another way, you won't be sat in the same coach as people who have actually paid for their tickets themselves.

 

[DynamicSpirit]

I'd almost go as far as to say they were pushed to NOT dispose of their own litter because there certainly was a time when bins etc were actively removed from many public areas include railway stations and onboard trains.

Eh? Since when did a lack of bins mean you were pushed to just leave your litter on the ground/floor/seat? When I grew up, if there were no bins, you took your litter with you until you got to somewhere where there was a bin - at home if necessary.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Can't beat a Mark 1 for comfort.

VTEC seem to be thinking about some sort of Premium Economy that will only be for 'Business Travellers'. The implied attraction being that you won't be sitting in the same coach as chavs. Or put it another way, you won't be sat in the same coach as people who have actually paid for their tickets themselves.

That might well backfire, because an awful lot of business travellers these days have to use Advances whereas plenty of people paying for their own tickets choose walk-ups. Business trips are typically quite a lot easier to plan to a specific time than pleasure ones.

 

[Bornin1980s]

Oh god, tell me about it. Lighting is a bugbear of mine. I don't know why there is a current trend for lighting everything up with 100000W LEDs like you're being interrogated, but it causes some of us real problems (the flicker/hue/intensity of LEDs are a massive migraine trigger for me, can leave me in intense pain for hours). You can counteract it with special glasses, but only to a certain extent.

Do any older types of lighting ever cause this? And does it ever prevent you from traveling?

 

[Goldfish62]

I've noticed a lot of moaning about the lack of table seats. Unless I'm traveling in a group personally I prefer airline seating as you can stretch your legs out more (other people's don't get in the way) and you get your own table (if someone has a laptop etc it often takes up most of the table)

Here, here!

 

[yorksrob]

That might well backfire, because an awful lot of business travellers these days have to use Advances whereas plenty of people paying for their own tickets choose walk-ups. Business trips are typically quite a lot easier to plan to a specific time than pleasure ones.

I do think the railway is stuck in denial to a great expense regarding business travel. The number of employers who are happy to let staff routinely travel on anytime returns seem to be reducing. Employers increasingly demand value.

 

[Bantamzen]

It'll be a while before I travel on a 80x, being up here in Yorkshire land with little recourse to travel onto GWR services right now means I'll be waiting until VTEC start to roll them out. However as a modern solution for an on-going problem, i.e. more passengers, limited budgets the 80xs seem like a perfectly good solution so far. Many of those that have used them have reported they are reasonably quiet, quick off the mark and have decent levels of comfort for longer journeys. Anyone who regularly travels by air will know that these facets are at a premium.

It is a shame that not all seats line up with windows, but then they don't line up with many aircraft seats either. Indeed coming back from Rhodes the other week I was in a 737-800 seat without a window at all (I didn't particularly mind as it was a night flight). The facts are what they are, more people than ever want to travel economically on trains and planes, and as such companies have to try and cater for it. You can't do that with luxurious seating, perfectly lined up with windows in nice early 20th century style compartments and silver service catering. The "Golden Age of Travel" is over, most people just want to get from A to B in a reasonable level of comfort at an affordable price in good time. From what I can see the 800s so far offer exactly that.

Maybe down the line some TOCs on certain routes might explore a Premium level of carriage, with the larger seats, compartments, silver service etc. But that will have to be paid for, just as they are on larger aircraft, something an awful lot of rail travellers cannot.

 

[shredder1]

Modern trains are built for accountants and not passengers

 

[AM9]

Modern trains are built for accountants and not passengers

Modern trains are built to carry the current and future volume of passengers within an affordable level of infrastructure - after allowing for manufacturer/RoSCo/TOC profits of course.

 

[class387]

yes but 2+2 seating with legroom would be more economical for TOCs that 2+1 seating.

I'm worried however that having a 'premium economy' with legroom and window alignment would encourage TOCs to not align seats with windows and further reduce legroom in standard class.

 

[stut]

Do any older types of lighting ever cause this? And does it ever prevent you from traveling?

Short answer: not to the same degree, no. It doesn't generally prevent me from travelling (unless I'm particularly sensitive to it) but I do need to wear bright pink glasses with UV filters and take a load of anti-seizure medication.

Long answer: it depends. There's contributory factors of certain frequencies of flicker, certain intensities and colour temperatures of the source that trigger it (in my case, anyway - there's a whole load of neurological conditions affected by light in different ways and they react differently). For me, in terms of artificial light, tungsten is generally the best (although those giant hipster bulbs can be a challenge), followed by CFL (which I know causes some people problems). Halogen can be OK, as long as it's not too intense or the intensity isn't concentrated. Fluorescent, again, needs to be dissipated and not to white/blue colour. Low-energy fluorescent and LED are just painful to my naked eye.

With the latter two, it's the flicker piled on to the colour and intensity that overload the visual cortex. Where most brains routinely filter out flicker, some struggle to filter certain frequencies. You'd struggle to concentrate working with a strobe - it's similar for me. But as it's subconscious, it stresses part of my brain, which in turn triggers a response that causes a migraine - and then it's game over for a while.

With the glasses, I'm reducing both the intensity and colour stresses, so I can cope. It's still unpleasant, but it's fleeting.

The problem with domestic and commercial LED lighting is that you have something that is powered by DC (the LED) being powered by AC (mains electricity). Now, AC-DC conversion is something done routinely, but when it's being done relatively cheaply, in a disposable format (i.e. inside the bulb itself) you're going to have a compromise. There is a gap in the DC signal given to the LED.

This isn't something specific to trains, however, it's become endemic. It's in my office, it's in the street lights, it's in car headlights, it's in shops, it's in hotels, it's in cafés and pubs and yes, it's in trains and stations. It's often at its worst in public buildings like hospitals. So unfortunately I just have to cope with it.

But it's nice when I don't have to.

So I'm not prevented from travelling because of it, but I do avoid certain modes where I have an alternative. The purple lighting on the Heathrow Express, for example, is deeply unpleasant for me, so that's one to avoid. Likewise, for shops: Boots have replace their in-store lighting in several branches with incredibly intense, flickery lighting that I can't bear, so I need to avoid. But as for the rest, I just have to adapt, and hope that technology improves part of it, and tastes perhaps move on.