Is rail REALLY that bad in the North?

[lejog]

I don't think that a business case has been made for their premature replacement.

It may have seemed a good decision, but many of the issues have not been resolved, and will be left to TfN to find funding for.

I agree that no explicit business case for Pacer replacement was made with the coalition government overuling the civil service and banning bidders from using them.

However Arriva was happy to bid for the franchise under these terms and despite the costs of new/refurbished stock are willing to have their subsidy level cut by 70% by the franchise end. They give no impression of being other than delighted with getting rid of the Pacers.

What issues have not been resolved? As far as I can see in the Franchise Agreement, it is Arriva that takes the risk of delayed cascades. In those circumstances it would be normal commercial practice to pass some of the risk in turn onto their suppliers, the ROSCOs.

 

[Olaf]

Is this not a "chicken and egg" problem? Cuts in the high level of subsidy are dependent on an increase in patronage. A sufficiently large increase in patronage requires investment in upgrading the infrastructure to improve journey times, service frequencies and platform lengths, so as to make the offering sufficiently more attractive to the potential new rail users. But this investment cannot be justified because of the high level of subsidy....

"There's a hole in my bucket, dear Lisa, dear Lisa...."

... and is there not already a substantial investment already being made to boot-strap the system?

Part of that investment is based on a substantial reduction in unit operation costs which, by design, TfN is going to be left to deal with.

 

[Olaf]

Is there a business case for Anglia acquiring new bi-mode trains to replace Sprinters on rural Norfolk lines, especially when there were 5 x off-lease 156s available to bidders? Or does business case only matter when the lesser used lines aren't in the same franchise as well utilised long distance services?

No, there was not a business case, and the final chapter is yet to be written on that.

 

[Greybeard33]

... and is there not already a substantial investment already being made to boot-strap the system?

Part of that investment is based on a substantial reduction in unit operation costs which, by design, TfN is going to be left to deal with.

How confident are you that Arriva and First, over the course of the current Northern and TPE franchises, will actually manage to achieve the substantial reductions in unit operation costs that are implicit in the respective Franchise Agreements?

 

[Clip]

How confident are you that Arriva and First, over the course of the current Northern and TPE franchises, will actually manage to achieve the substantial reductions in unit operation costs that are implicit in the respective Franchise Agreements?

If there are performance related bonuses/payments for achieving these reductions then you can bet your bottom dollar they will find a way

 

[pemma]

If there are performance related bonuses/payments for achieving these reductions then you can bet your bottom dollar they will find a way

Some savings may prove false economy. Old Northern went for the cheap TVMs but they are more likely to be out-of-service than the Fast Ticket machines used by other operators. Was the saving worth it given the increased maintenance costs and higher number of passengers unable to buy a ticket for their journey?

 

[stacker]

Well I agree something needs to be done about token service routes and Stations, the question being as the whether or not they should improved or binned entirely.

With regards to the Ellesmere Port Helsby line, it is not used as the token services are at ridiculous useless time and they only way to approach the town from the south is by road, with Cheshire Oaks outlet and other attractions, this has led to grid lock on the roads. If the line was opened up with a park and ride service from the station people travelling by train from North and south could access these attractions, also the science park at Thornton which has it's own station would be viable. Ince and Elton would no longer be cut off and have services north and south. Car journeys for the whole area could be cut.

 

[neonison]

A lack of orbital routes in and around Manchester. Though Oldham and Bury have been relinquished to Metrolink (not necessarily a bad thing) one has to travel into central Manchester even to get from say Stalybridge to Hyde or Glossop, Rochdale to Bolton etc. Within my time I used the Stalybridge-Stockport train to head to all points south and services from Stockport have since improved with the diversion of Chester and Buxton services.

 

[yorksrob]

A lack of orbital routes in and around Manchester. Though Oldham and Bury have been relinquished to Metrolink (not necessarily a bad thing) one has to travel into central Manchester even to get from say Stalybridge to Hyde or Glossop, Rochdale to Bolton etc. Within my time I used the Stalybridge-Stockport train to head to all points south and services from Stockport have since improved with the diversion of Chester and Buxton services.

And of course, there was once the Oldham to Bolton route in the North of the City.

 

[Mutant Lemming]

There are too many infrequent services to make rail an option when travelling over a short or medium distance in the north. They simply aren't competitive with the car. Where they are comparatively acceptable, they are often overcrowded due to lack of capacity and/or frequency. TPE services should not be having to move the majority of short distance passengers and this would free up space for longer distance customers, but unfortunately even the order for new stock would appear to be too small, 5 car trains will just about cope with today's amount of passengers, never mind the next lot of growth that will come from 6 services an hour. There is a huge lack of vision when planning in the North.

It isn't just frequency and comprehensive coverage but also the comparatively less busy roads and easier parking that make the car more attractive. Many journeys in London are quicker by rail - if they weren't (even) more people would use their cars. Once the major Northern cities become strangled by traffic to the extent that London is then the major investment in infrastructure (that should be made now) will HAVE to be made and only then will we start to see a switch from car to public transport at a level viable enough to warrant a more comprehensive rail network.

 

[MG11]

I think some parts of the "north" are better served than others. Leeds has really good links, electrified lines, many doubled up units and West Yorkshire stations, like the one where the Ilkley line electrics split at a junction (Shipley?) have a great station facilities for the size of the town. Other areas, such as the South TransPennine, which I know is going to be improved soon, the Chester Northern services, Crewe - Derby services and many local South Yorkshire services do need some improvement. Most of which is happening soon, with clever plans from the relevant TOCs. Things are definitely set to get better and TOCs try thrir best with the resources they have. I know EMT do all they can to boost capacity on Crewe-Derby services, but the service seems to frequently attract justified complaints from customers.

 

[Dentonian]

And of course, there was once the Oldham to Bolton route in the North of the City.

The Trans-Lancs bus you mean? liol

 

[Howardh]

And of course, there was once the Oldham to Bolton route in the North of the City.

The 500 I think. Oldham/Rochdale/Bury/Bolton/Wigan? It's still going. Not the service as the route itself got removed years ago, but it was such a tortuous route the last couple of services still haven't arrived. We think the penultimate one has just left Leigh.

 

[LOL The Irony]

Stand on Piccadilly's platforms 13 & 14 for an hour and see how many trains get delayed. And if you want to know what 24 Thameslink services an hour will do, also look there.

 

[Mutant Lemming]

Stand on Piccadilly's platforms 13 & 14 for an hour and see how many trains get delayed. And if you want to know what 24 Thameslink services an hour will do, also look there.

The Japanese seem to manage it well enough without delays

 

[Dentonian]

The 500 I think. Oldham/Rochdale/Bury/Bolton/Wigan? It's still going. Not the service as the route itself got removed years ago, but it was such a tortuous route the last couple of services still haven't arrived. We think the penultimate one has just left Leigh.

Not sure if this is a sarcastic response to me (given train services don't have route numbers.......do they?), or an error-strewn comment to yorksrob. FTR, it was numbered 400 and it was an Express service from Bolton to Stockport via Bury, Rochdale, Oldham, Ashton and Denton. There was also a 401 for a number of years which served Middleton instead of Rochdale. End to end of off-peak running times were 1hr 46 minutes. There are still frequent stopping services between Bolton and Denton, but two changes of bus (and one of Operator) would be needed and even with lucky connections you could add at least an hour to the Bolton-Denton section and then the bus to Stockport is now only hourly. Yes, Bolton-Stockport would obviously be done by rail, but the other connections would either involve at least one change of mode (with fare implications), or time penalties.
The 500 ran from Bolton to Altrincham, orbiting the South-west of the conurbation. At various times both extended to the Airport.

 

[yorksrob]

The 500 I think. Oldham/Rochdale/Bury/Bolton/Wigan? It's still going. Not the service as the route itself got removed years ago, but it was such a tortuous route the last couple of services still haven't arrived. We think the penultimate one has just left Leigh.

I was thinking more of the railway that once covered that route.

 

[Mutant Lemming]

I was thinking more of the railway that once covered that route.

Which ran between towns in the county of Lancashire and not any city

 

[yorksrob]

Which ran between towns in the county of Lancashire and not any city

In so far as almost all of Manchester is in the County Palatine of Lancashire.

 

[Tetchytyke]

Leeds has really good links, electrified lines, many doubled up units and West Yorkshire stations, like the one where the Ilkley line electrics split at a junction (Shipley?) have a great station facilities for the size of the town.

Leeds is a funny one. On the railway lines, the transport links are generally ok, although 2tph on most lines out of Leeds isn't all that inspiring. But away from the railway transport links in Leeds are *terrible*.

 

[Fuzzytop]

Leeds is a funny one. On the railway lines, the transport links are generally ok, although 2tph on most lines out of Leeds isn't all that inspiring. But away from the railway transport links in Leeds are *terrible*.

The Aire and Wharfe lines really are fantastic. Elsewhere maybe not so much.

 

[Bletchleyite]

2tph isn't anything to write home about but is OK. Some German S-Bahnen operate on that base.

What isn't quite so OK is slow running, ancient rolling stock with barely adequate capacity, and poorly-coordinated connections.

You can make 2tph reasonably attractive if done right.

 

[xotGD]

The Aire and Wharfe lines really are fantastic. Elsewhere maybe not so much.

Not with the uncomfortable 3+2 seating on the 333s they're not!

 

[Dentonian]

In so far as almost all of Manchester is in the County Palatine of Lancashire.

Not very often nowadays I can quote the phrase "before my time", but both orbital rail and the county Palatine were "before my time" as regards Greater Manchester. Probably come of being brought up right on the border of Lancashire and Cheshire, that I easily adopted the concept of GM when it was adopted just before my 12th birthday.

 

[Mutant Lemming]

Not very often nowadays I can quote the phrase "before my time", but both orbital rail and the county Palatine were "before my time" as regards Greater Manchester. Probably come of being brought up right on the border of Lancashire and Cheshire, that I easily adopted the concept of GM when it was adopted just before my 12th birthday.

Not so readily adopted by the citizens of Bolton and Wigan (and other Lancashire towns) who maintain the belief that they are from Lancashire (or Cheshire in the case of Stockport and Stalybridge)

 

[Shaw S Hunter]

Not so readily adopted by the citizens of Bolton and Wigan (and other Lancashire towns) who maintain the belief that they are from Lancashire (or Cheshire in the case of Stockport and Stalybridge)

That belief is much less strongly held than it used to be. While "Greater Manchester" is not something people readily identify themselves with nevertheless as a concept it is accepted as making a lot of sense. Of course far more people commute to Manchester from those towns than did in the past which helps to reinforce the Manchester connection.

 

[Chester1]

That belief is much less strongly held than it used to be. While "Greater Manchester" is not something people readily identify themselves with nevertheless as a concept it is accepted as making a lot of sense. Of course far more people commute to Manchester from those towns than did in the past which helps to reinforce the Manchester connection.

As a resident of Stockport I would definitely agree with that. Refering to Stockport as part of Cheshire is the reserve of people who can remember before the 1974 creation of Greater Manchester. I moved to the area precisely because of its proximity to Manchester city centre.

 

[Old Yard Dog]

A lack of orbital routes in and around Manchester. Though Oldham and Bury have been relinquished to Metrolink (not necessarily a bad thing) one has to travel into central Manchester even to get from say Stalybridge to Hyde or Glossop, Rochdale to Bolton etc. Within my time I used the Stalybridge-Stockport train to head to all points south and services from Stockport have since improved with the diversion of Chester and Buxton services.

I don't think many people west of Altrincham would regard the diversion of mid-Cheshire services via Stockport, and the extra time that entails in getting to Manchester, as an improvement.

 

[Statto]

Not sure if this is a sarcastic response to me (given train services don't have route numbers.......do they?), or an error-strewn comment to yorksrob. FTR, it was numbered 400 and it was an Express service from Bolton to Stockport via Bury, Rochdale, Oldham, Ashton and Denton. There was also a 401 for a number of years which served Middleton instead of Rochdale. End to end of off-peak running times were 1hr 46 minutes. There are still frequent stopping services between Bolton and Denton, but two changes of bus (and one of Operator) would be needed and even with lucky connections you could add at least an hour to the Bolton-Denton section and then the bus to Stockport is now only hourly. Yes, Bolton-Stockport would obviously be done by rail, but the other connections would either involve at least one change of mode (with fare implications), or time penalties.
The 500 ran from Bolton to Altrincham, orbiting the South-west of the conurbation. At various times both extended to the Airport.

400 i used to catch a lot & remember the extension to Manchester Airport.
401 was think Wigan-Oldham think via Westhaughton, then Bolton-Bury-Middleton-Chadderton, then got cut Bolton-Oldham before being extended to Stockport via Hyde, i do remember the 400/401 being rerouted via Lees Road between Oldham & Ashton which was short lived

 

[Olaf]

How confident are you that Arriva and First, over the course of the current Northern and TPE franchises, will actually manage to achieve the substantial reductions in unit operation costs that are implicit in the respective Franchise Agreements?

It will be down to TfN to make-up any funding gaps - and that would have to come out of local resources - that is the intensive.