Is this allowed? Two Advance tickets overlapping on same journey

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trainophile

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I am going on a little break to Berwick-upon-Tweed with a friend in September. Because she lives in London, I was able to buy her return ticket some time ago with the 24-weeks Advances. She said that Standard Class would be fine, so I booked her a seat in coach B. (I am a bit more au fait with booking tickets than she is, and it made sense for one of us to co-ordinate things).

My own return as far as York, where I will leave the train, now has tickets available, on the same train that she is booked on, for the Berwick-York leg. Last night I checked, and found that it was only £3 dearer to go First Class than Standard, and there were two First Class tickets left in the lowest price tier. So I bought them both! It seemed like a good idea because (a) if we're on the same train it would be silly to travel separately, and (b) if we were both in the Quiet coach we might accidentally forget to observe the Quiet rule, and annoy other passengers! :oops:

Now, the question is - will it be it okay for her to travel with me in First as far as York, then when I leave the train, for her to go and sit in her reserved seat in Standard for the rest of her journey? (We would walk through together just before reaching York, rather than her having to dash along the platform). She will effectively have two Advance tickets - BWK-KGX in Coach B, and BWK-YRK in Coach M. When she moved to Standard at York, would a guard object to the fact that she would appear to have just joined the train, even if she could show him her Coach M ticket?

Just want to do the right thing, and I know how easy it is to contravene the rules!
 
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DaveNewcastle

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No rule is being contravened.
She is entitled to be conveyed to York in First Class and is entitled to be conveyed to Kings Cross in standard. She can sit in whichever class she likes until York.
 

Kite159

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No rule is being contravened.
She is entitled to be conveyed to York in First Class and is entitled to be conveyed to Kings Cross in standard. She can sit in whichever class she likes until York.

The guard might even say that she can remain in First Class after York, depending how nice they are feeling that day
 

Bletchleyite

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It all boils down to "can you be travelling on two tickets at the same time".

If not, you have to either start short on one, or end short on the other, and that is not permitted on Advances.

While I think trouble is unlikely, I wouldn't rule it out.

Edit: as both originate in Berwick some of this complication doesn't arise, so trouble is less likely still. Though her reserved seat is unlikely to remain available and she will have to take her chances for a seat in Standard after York.
 
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trainophile

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That was my concern Neil, about it being theoretically against the Advance ticket rules, if anybody wanted to be pedantic.

Not too worried about her getting a seat at York, as I expect there will be people vacating seats in Coach B at that point, and I doubt they will ALL be subsequently reserved for boarders.

Let's hope it's a nice crew on that day! :D
 

DaveNewcastle

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It all boils down to "can you be travelling on two tickets at the same time".
No, it doesn't. It's not a question of what the passenger can or cannot do.

The passenger holding two tickets for travel has entered into two contracts, and paid for them. The outstanding obligation falls to the Railway Company to convey the passenger between the named stations. In sharp contrast to that obligation, the passenger has no obligation to travel. The Company must fulfill its obligations, the passenger is free to travel or not as they choose.

It is immaterial how many contracts the passenger enters into and does not fulfill. The Company is obliged to convey, and to do so under both contracts.

[it has no bearing on the explication of the contractural situation, but by sheer coincidence, I was in exactly the same position on an East Coast journey last week, and made a point of bringing it to the attention of the guard before boarding. After a moment's hesitation trying to grasp that I was asking the Company to provide me with less that they had contracted, and not more, I was enthusiastically welcomed on board and then given a cheery greeting when checking my tickets in a First Class seat.]

That was my concern Neil, about it being theoretically against the Advance ticket rules, if anybody wanted to be pedantic.
trainophile, it emphatically is not "against the Advance ticket rules". Do not be deterred by Neil Williams's mistaken interpretation.
 
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Bletchleyite

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The passenger has no obligation to travel, but in the case of Advance tickets that choice is complete the journey in full as per the contract or do not complete any of it.

By travelling in First Class for part of the journey the second journey in Standard is being completed only partially.

This does not only apply to rail; with air it is common that if you don't turn up for the outward, the return is forfeit without refund.

Or do you believe that neither of these provisions would actually stand up in a Court, and as such that the companies are just trying it on?
 
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Starmill

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The Advance ticket terms and conditions do prohibit breaks of journeys, but the passenger's journey isn't being broken, they're just remaining on the same train. Perhaps that's what Neil was thinking of?
 

MikeWh

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The passenger has no obligation to travel, but in the case of Advance tickets that choice is complete the journey in full as per the contract or do not complete any of it.

By travelling in First Class for part of the journey the second journey in Standard is being completed only partially.
Is the passenger travelling in one go from Berwick to Kings Cross? Yes
Does the passenger have to occupy their seat for the whole journey? No*

*If they did there would be little point in the TOCs providing buffets or toilets.
 

greatkingrat

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The Terms & Conditions of the standard class advance ticket say you must occupy the seat shown on the ticket. If you are instead sat in a first class seat you are clearly not complying with that condition.

The chances of anyone caring are pretty much zero, but on a strict reading of the rules, it is technically not allowed.
 

trainophile

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Thanks again everyone. On balance it seems it will be okay, and I expect the guard/s on the day will have better things to do than look for a problem which logic suggests is pretty inconsequential on the scale of things!

I don't suppose the crew change at York do they? I think it's probably Newcastle?
 

LexyBoy

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The passenger has no obligation to travel, but in the case of Advance tickets that choice is complete the journey in full as per the contract or do not complete any of it.

The passenger's journey is from Berwick to Kings Cross, in this instance being made using two tickets as per NRCoC 19(b). Two contracts are formed, both encompassing both the NRCoC and the T&Cs of the ticket type held. You are correct in that the latter prohibits starting or ending a journey at an intermediate station - but this is not what is being done as "journey" is clearly defined by Condition 19.
 

hairyhandedfool

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Provided both tickets are valid (and they change over where the train stops) then it's not a problem, I guess the question is whether both are valid. In this particular case I can't see train crew having any issue with them, yes there may be a technicality over where people are sitting, but it's unlikely to be a problem.

.... as "journey" is clearly defined by Condition 19.

Many have been the discussions on this forum, in the past, about what constitutes a journey. This is because Condition 19 does not define the term (clearly or otherwise). There is a generally accepted definition on this forum though.
 

LexyBoy

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Many have been the discussions on this forum, in the past, about what constitutes a journey. This is because Condition 19 does not define the term (clearly or otherwise).

You are correct - I should have said that the usage in C19 makes it clear that "journey" is referring to the journey made by the passenger rather than that between the stations on the ticket(s).

It is a notoriously poorly defined term and one which cannot sensibly have a single definition across the NRCoC, NRG and ticket T&Cs.
 

trainophile

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I would hope that in this sort of situation, the unwritten(?) rule about the reason for the tickets being combined is not as a means of being to the passenger's material advantage, i.e. there is no financial benefit involved.
 

MikeWh

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Provided both tickets are valid (and they change over where the train stops)

One ticket is valid for the whole journey, the other is valid for the first half of it. There is no changeover as such, but the train does call where the half ticket ends as they are both advances.
 

Haywain

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I would hope that in this sort of situation, the unwritten(?) rule about the reason for the tickets being combined is not as a means of being to the passenger's material advantage, i.e. there is no financial benefit involved.
I'm not sure what 'rule', unwritten or otherwise, you are referring to. The jounrey is undertaken with two tickets, and the manner of the journey does not contravene the Conditions of Carriage or Terms and Conditions of the tickets. In view of this there can be no problem and whether the arrangement is to the passengers advantage in any way is of absolutely no relevance.
 

trainophile

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I'm not sure what 'rule', unwritten or otherwise, you are referring to. The jounrey is undertaken with two tickets, and the manner of the journey does not contravene the Conditions of Carriage or Terms and Conditions of the tickets. In view of this there can be no problem and whether the arrangement is to the passengers advantage in any way is of absolutely no relevance.

Fair enough, and thanks again. I was referring to the fact that apparently TOCs will take a lenient view if someone using an Advance ticket starts or finishes short of the stations on their ticket, for genuine reasons e.g. change of plan, and not just because it works out cheaper for whatever reason.

Edit: I realise there is no short starting or finishing in this situation, but the non-occupation of one of the seats for the first part of the journey might be perceived as out of kilter with "the rules".
 
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Romilly

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There's also the risk that the unoccupied standard-class seat might be occupied by someone else by the time the reservation-holder moves to occupy it, and also a risk that the guard - having noticed an apparently unwanted reservation - will have removed the reservation card from the seat by then.
 

najaB

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There's also the risk that the unoccupied standard-class seat might be occupied by someone else by the time the reservation-holder moves to occupy it, and also a risk that the guard - having noticed an apparently unwanted reservation - will have removed the reservation card from the seat by then.
Neither of which is really much of a 'risk' in the grand scheme of things.
 

hairyhandedfool

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One ticket is valid for the whole journey, the other is valid for the first half of it. There is no changeover as such, but the train does call where the half ticket ends as they are both advances.

As I understand it, the first portion of the journey is to be made in First Class accommodation, that is something that is not (generally speaking) permitted on a standard class ticket, therefore a change of ticket does happen.

I don't think it's a big issue in this case, I've said that already, my point was to note that in order for condition 19 to apply, as it does here, those two criteria must be met.
 

Halsebee

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Essentially this is journey on a standard advance ticket, but with a first class "upgrade" for part of the trip, albeit a seperate ticket, but the passanger has paid extra to sit it first class. Clearly not a problem
 

DaveNewcastle

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Essentially this is journey on a standard advance ticket, but with a first class "upgrade" for part of the trip, albeit . . . .
No, it is not.
As I've tried to explain already, the 'essence' is that this passenger is a party to two, completely unconnected, contracts. And VTEC is obliged to convey the passenger under both of them.

. . . . Clearly not a problem
I do agree with this.
 

yorkie

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....- will it be it okay for her to travel with me in First as far as York, then when I leave the train, for her to go and sit in her reserved seat in Standard for the rest of her journey?...
As we do not know if anyone will be sat in that seat, we cannot simply say "yes" or "no". ;)

Clearly any passengers boarding at Newcastle, Darlington etc may occupy that seat as it was not taken up from Berwick.

If it's occupied, no she may not sit in it. If it is unoccupied, yes she may.
 
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