is this included in part of the 'full range'?

[34D]

Up here in sunny Yorkshire, we have a bit of a strange situation happening.

There are various tickets that are valid for rail travel, which aren't currently available at rail ticket offices. I'm talking about smart travelmaster and m-card products.

As distinct from oyster weekly/longer tickets, where there is a paper product at the same price, some of the smart products mentioned above are more desirous in ITSO form, example some are cheaper and/or transferable.

If one wishes to purchase or renew one of the above products, do they have the right to travel using the concessions is NRCoC clause 3? What about TOC's who don't like clause 3?

 

[Solent&Wessex]

I know we will almost certainly disagree on this, but I will say NO. Non-Rail / TOC products such as M-cards are issued by somebody other than the TOC and just happen to be valid on trains, and as such the authority issuing that ticket decides how or where that ticket is issued, and in my view, people who wish to take advantage of that product need to purchase their ticket accordingly.

Family DayRover in West Yorkshire is valid on Trains, but can't be sold on trains or from SSTMs, so does this mean people can board at an unstaffed station and travel to another unstaffed station without paying? I would say no, if they wish to use the Family Day Rover then they need to purchase one from the places that sell them, and cannot use it until they do.

 

[lejog]

Most certainly yes. The first words of the NRCoC say:

When you buy a ticket to travel on scheduled services on the National Rail Network you make an agreement with the Train Companies whose trains the ticket allows you to use.

No exclusions for the type of ticket apply, no exclusions for ticket issuers other than TOCs apply. No exclusions for tickets that are not available at ticket offices. The NRCoC applies to a valid ticket for the journey, whatever the type of ticket.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

I know we will almost certainly disagree on this, but I will say NO. Non-Rail / TOC products such as M-cards are issued by somebody other than the TOC and just happen to be valid on trains, and as such the authority issuing that ticket decides how or where that ticket is issued, and in my view, people who wish to take advantage of that product need to purchase their ticket accordingly.

As you say these tickets happen to be valid on trains, and the NRCoC makes it perfectly clear that it is a contract that applies in these circumstances. Following your logic, I assume that the "Passenger Responsibilities" defined in the NRCoC don't apply to passengers with m-cards? You can't pick and choose clauses from a contract as you please, the contract either applies or it doesn't.

Family DayRover in West Yorkshire is valid on Trains, but can't be sold on trains or from SSTMs, so does this mean people can board at an unstaffed station and travel to another unstaffed station without paying? I would say no, if they wish to use the Family Day Rover then they need to purchase one from the places that sell them, and cannot use it until they do.

I have on occasion successfully upgraded a single ticket from a TVM at an unstaffed West Yorkshire station to a Train and Bus Day Rover at the staffed destination.

 

[34D]

I know we will almost certainly disagree on this,

No. As I am genuinely not sure what the right answer ought to be.

I believe that these ITSO tickets are a different case to the bus & train dayrover (though my mind is far from settled as to the correct conclusion for said tickets).

 

[DaveNewcastle]

This is my understanding exactly:

. . . I will say NO. Non-Rail / TOC products such as M-cards are issued by somebody other than the TOC and just happen to be valid on trains, and as such the authority issuing that ticket decides how or where that ticket is issued, and in my view, people who wish to take advantage of that product need to purchase their ticket accordingly.

. . .

And I find myself in disagreement with this:

Most certainly yes. The first words of the NRCoC say:

When you buy a ticket to travel on scheduled services on the National Rail Network you make an agreement with the Train Companies whose trains the ticket allows you to use.

No exclusions for the type of ticket apply, no exclusions for ticket issuers other than TOCs apply. . . .

I think I can follow your line of reasoning (which of course I disgaree with because the tickets concerned are not issued under these 'Conditions') but am I right in deducing that your view on this question is just your on private interpretation? Or have you derived this from any published authorities, legal opinion or Company literature?

 

[lejog]

I do have one further point about the NRCoC and non-TOC tickets.

The NRCoC is a contract between a passenger and the TOC(s) on whose services the passenger travels with a valid ticket. If the TOCS allow non-TOCs such as PTEs to issue tickets valid for train travel, then it is a matter of basic commercial/management competence that the TOCs pass through their responsibilities to passengers through to the TPEs in the contract between the two.

If the TOCs don't do this, that's their problem, they have responsibilities to passengers they can't force on the PTE. If they do this and PTEs subsequently break their contract by applying rules inconsistent with NRCoC, then its up to the TOC to manage their contract appropriately.

 

[DaveNewcastle]

As I had been wondering (hence my question to you), this appears to be a personal interpretation without supporting evidence :

The NRCoC is a contract between a passenger and the TOC(s) on whose services the passenger travels with a valid ticket. If the TOCS allow non-TOCs such as PTEs to issue tickets valid for train travel, then . . . .

Thank you for clarifying that.

 

[lejog]

This is my understanding exactly:And I find myself in disagreement with this:I think I can follow your line of reasoning (which of course I disgaree with because the tickets concerned are not issued under these 'Conditions') but am I right in deducing that your view on this question is just your on private interpretation? Or have you derived this from any published authorities, legal opinion or Company literature?

1) Statements in literature such as this on the NRE Website.

When you buy a ticket to travel on the railway network you enter into an agreement with the Train Companies. That agreement gives you the right to make the journey, or journeys, between the stations or within the zones shown on the ticket you have bought. These National Rail Conditions of Carriage are also part of that agreement and they apply to all domestic (non-international) journeys by scheduled passenger train services of the Train Companies on the railway network of Great Britain.

Quite clearly the passenger enters an agreement with the TOCs (of which the NRCoC is a part) when you buy a ticket to travel on the railway network. This is reinforced by the statement that the NRCoC applies to all domestic journeys. No qualifications whatsoever regarding the issuer of the ticket or the ticket being issued/not issued under the terms of the NRCoC.

2) The same in the NRCOC itself. It would be an extremely odd contract where the first clauses do not define exactly and specifically the parties to the contract and the context in which it applies. I certainly would be consulting specialist legal opinion if the context defined in a contract was contradicted elsewhere.

Do you have any evidence of any such contradictions?
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As I had been wondering (hence my question to you), this appears to be a personal interpretation without supporting evidence :

Thank you for clarifying that.

or is your post just your opinion without supporting evidence?

 

[Starmill]

This wouldn't be a problem if we had properly integrated transport systems. Now train companies have a choice: they can either take kwvr45's attitude, which is that Mother Railway must have it's dues, and sod the rest of you, or they can work with the bodies who help to actually promote Public Transport (and thus, long-term railway usage). I don't mean to offend, and I often do understand where kwvr45 is coming from, but we need to move on from a situation where train companies can lay down the law like that. In just the same was as we've got to make an effort to pay for things, you've got to be flexible in letting us do that. One such way is working quickly with PTEs, putting some cash in, even, to get Huddersfield and Dewsbury ticket offices smartcard equipped. Has that happened? You couldn't even get it on the gates without DfT paying!
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I have on occasion successfully upgraded a single ticket from a TVM at an unstaffed West Yorkshire station to a Train and Bus Day Rover at the staffed destination.

Glad to hear it. That's exactly what train companies undertake to do in the Conditions of Carriage!
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

I have on occasion successfully upgraded a single ticket from a TVM at an unstaffed West Yorkshire station to a Train and Bus Day Rover at the staffed destination.

Glad to hear it. That's exactly what train companies undertake to do in the Conditions of Carriage!



At present, in practice, I think it's clearly inadvisable for anyone to try to buy an M-card product at a railway outlet, fail to do so and then travel anyway. The onus is on the railway to get this sorted, and quickly, so that people can buy these products at ticket machines and offices throughout West and South Yorkshire.

Now, is that going to happen?

 

[Solent&Wessex]

Look back at the original question.

M-Cards cannot be purchased at ticket offices. If a passenger turns up at Huddersfield, a staffed station with ticket office, they cannot do anything with their M Card. Under condition 3 - the full range is not available - they purchase a ticket for part of what they want to do. Lets say they buy a Huddersfield to Leeds single at £5.50. When they get to Leeds station they can't do anything with their M card either, but they then go the newsagents outside which is a payzone outlet, where they can purchase their M card. They then demand that the newsagent knocks £5.50 off the cost of the M Card as they wish to exercise condition 3. Can they do this? What does the newsagent do? Or should the passenger be allowed to travel completely free without making payment as the TOCs have absolutely no way of selling the product they wish to purchase?

My interpretation is that NRCOC applies once you have brought a ticket. If you don't have a valid ticket when you get to Huddersfield, you so far have no agreement or contract, and you wish to use your M Card, then on the basis that a TOC cannot sell an M Card, then you have 3 options:
a) Go somewhere else that can sell you an M Card (You then have a ticket and have, at this point, entered into an agreement with the TOCs).
b) Buy a ticket from the TOC which allows you to use the TOCs service. (You then have a ticket and have, at this point, entered into an agreement with the TOCs. This allows you to then exercise condition 3. How you do that in respect of an M Card I await you to tell me.)
c) Go away and don't travel.

 

[Starmill]

So you agree that's it's a nightmare for passengers. I'm sure your bosses will be doing their best to get it sorted out as soon as possible then?

 

[Solent&Wessex]

This wouldn't be a problem if we had properly integrated transport systems. Now train companies have a choice: they can either take kwvr45's attitude, which is that Mother Railway must have it's dues, and sod the rest of you, or they can work with the bodies who help to actually promote Public Transport (and thus, long-term railway usage). I don't mean to offend, and I often do understand where kwvr45 is coming from, but we need to move on from a situation where train companies can lay down the law like that. In just the same was as we've got to make an effort to pay for things, you've got to be flexible in letting us do that. One such way is working quickly with PTEs, putting some cash in, even, to get Huddersfield and Dewsbury ticket offices smartcard equipped. Has that happened? You couldn't even get it on the gates without DfT paying!

I have no problem in being flexible, in fact I am one of the staunchest critics of certain attitudes taken by TOCs in respect of letting people pay for things, and will often express my views vocally to colleagues and others who seem to think they can't or shouldn't sell an SVR or CDR (for eg) after a staffed station to somebody who has connected in from an unstaffed station and so far been unable to pay. That is one example. But at the same time the TOCS can't sell things that they cannot sell. The M Card comes with clear detailed list places where you can buy it (and where you cannot). Users of it have to plan accordingly. If I want to go out for the day with friends and we want to use a Train and Bus Dayrover, these cannot be purchased on the bus from my village to the nearest station. So I have to buy a bus ticket. Or does the bus driver let me travel for free because I say I will buy a dayrover when I get to town? Or do I take my bus ticket to the ticket office at the rail station and demand they knock the £2.70 bus fare off the cost of the dayrover? No, I plan ahead and buy it the day before.

I take your point about integrated transport. And that is very nice, but so far that hasn't happened in Yorkshire, and until it does you can't have the benefits associated with it. Of course the simple thing would be for the station to become a payzone outlet, and have an entirely seperate till for M cards, in much the same was in the London area 10 years ago Aptis machines were still retained on the back desk at large booking offices for dealing with Oyster, as that wasn't yet supported by the newer systems.
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So you agree that's it's a nightmare for passengers.

To some degree, yes.

I'm sure your bosses will be doing their best to get it sorted out as soon as possible then?

I very much doubt it.

 

[Agent_c]

Could it be interpreted a different way?

Rather than the M-Card being a contract between you and the Train companies... Its a contract between you and a third party, who in turn has a contract with the TOCs to transport you under the NCoC (the rights from which are transfered to the M-Card user).

This negates the "TOCs must sell every ticket..." issue, and still allows the passenger to rely on the NCoC Rights...

 

[Starmill]

You've hit on another issue there with the buses that is just a steaming pile of nonsense about how people have to buy those tickets in advance because Metro can't force the bus operators to sell them. It works just fine in Greater Manchester. These are serious deficienies in public policy as more than anything else, and again bus companies need to play their part if theu want to keep their business. We have the laughable situation too that you can buy the train + tram day ticket from a tram ticket machine, but not from a rail one!!! London Midland have got their machines selling nNetwork day tickets now, so why not here?

Thankfully things are moving in the right direction. What's frustrating is how slowly that's happening.

 

[PermitToTravel]

Well, not every GM bus company sells S1 tickets...

 

[lejog]

Glad to hear it. That's exactly what train companies undertake to do in the Conditions of Carriage!

Precisely.

At present, in practice, I think it's clearly inadvisable for anyone to try to buy an M-card product at a railway outlet, fail to do so and then travel anyway. The onus is on the railway to get this sorted, and quickly, so that people can buy these products at ticket machines and offices throughout West and South Yorkshire.

Now, is that going to happen?

Unfortunately the NRCoC provides no onus on the railway in practical terms. Its only a contract after all and if passengers stand to win if the TOCs breach the contract is recompense for the losses that they have incurred (in my example if the ticket office at Halifax had refused to excess to a PTE Dayrover, my loss would have been the couple of quid cost of a single from Mytholmroyd). Unlike the open and shut nature of prosecutions under RoRA and the byelaws, which are carried out relatively cheaply in a Magistrates Court with an inexpensive (relative being the key word here) lawyer, contested breach of contract cases can be rather expensive in the way of legal fees for an average passenger to contemplate.

This is especially true of cases where there are ambiguities in a contract or a contractual term is contradicted elsewhere. Which is why I'd be interested in the evidence that Dave In Newcastle has for his view that tickets need to be issued subject to the NRCoC for the terms to apply, when not only railway literature but also the definition of the context in the NRCoC itself says they apply whenever a journey is made.

I'm not doubting that such contradictions can occur, they are the meat and drink of expensive contractual disputes, and an enormous money spinner for the legal industry. However as a passenger interested in keeping to the NRCoC its not helpful if the railway cannot be consistent towards passengers and contradicts what is said in the NRCoC by material elsewhere.
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My interpretation is that NRCOC applies once you have brought a ticket. If you don't have a valid ticket when you get to Huddersfield, you so far have no agreement or contract.

Possibly, I'd certainly agree that the fundamental context of the NRCoC states that it applies if you have a valid ticket. The problem is that you have only to get as far clauses A.1.2 and A.1.3 for this to be contradicted and it starts defining what happens when a passenger is unable to buy a valid ticket.

I'm not going to argue which is correct or which applies. its just a contradiction within a contract, which I've said before is meat and drink to the lawyers.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

. If I want to go out for the day with friends and we want to use a Train and Bus Dayrover, these cannot be purchased on the bus from my village to the nearest station. So I have to buy a bus ticket. Or does the bus driver let me travel for free because I say I will buy a dayrover when I get to town? Or do I take my bus ticket to the ticket office at the rail station and demand they knock the £2.70 bus fare off the cost of the dayrover? No, I plan ahead and buy it the day before.

But I can't pass this one by, are you seriously suggesting that because bus companies are not one of the parties to the NRCoC, that TOCs (who most definitely are a party) should be exempt from its provisions?

If so where does this end? Can any party who signs up to a contract argue that it doesn't apply to them, because it doesn't apply to any random third party?

 

[Solent&Wessex]

--- old post above --- --- new post below ---


But I can't pass this one by, are you seriously suggesting that because bus companies are not one of the parties to the NRCoC, that TOCs (who most definitely are a party) should be exempt from its provisions?

If so where does this end? Can any party who signs up to a contract argue that it doesn't apply to them, because it doesn't apply to any random third party?

No, I am comparing it to the M Card scenario I outlined which might apply at Huddersfield following the original question in Post 1. The Huddersfield scenario is exactly the same. The TOCs do not sell M Cards anywhere, not at a ticket office, not onboard, not anywhere. So for Condition 3 to apply then you either allow somebody to travel for free because the TOC cannot physically sell what they want, or if you wish to use Condition 3 you are, by default, going to involve a 3rd Party such as a newsagent, local store, bus station etc, as those are the only places that sell M Cards. If a 3rd party cannot be involved, then Condition 3 is irrelevant and cannot be used.

 

[Starmill]

Well, not every GM bus company sells S1 tickets...

Much preferable to not any doing so, which is the relevant comparison.

Additionally, I didn't mean the NRCoC is why the railway company should change it. I meant they should just get on with it because

1. It's in their own interests, this is where long-term revenue is
2. They should be obliged to have good working relationships with bodies that promote their services, such as WYCA
3. If they don't, they are perpetuating the current ridiculous situation

These products are going to have to be issued at West/South Yorks ticket offices eventually - there is no escaping that. All that's happening is that the railway is dragging it's feet to save money.

In that context it's not surprising passengers might want to do things the railway doesn't like.

At least in the case of Huddersfield, the bus station is less than 5 minutes away. Unlike Leeds...

 

[strowger]

Deleted

 

[34D]

You've hit on another issue there with the buses that is just a steaming pile of nonsense about how people have to buy those tickets in advance because Metro can't force the bus operators to sell them.

No. We want to sell them on the buses: the resistance here comes from the railway companies who apparently don't want to train their staff on paper tickets issued by bus companies.

Returning to my original question, let us not forget that the train companies who serve WY stations are share holders of the West Yorkshire Ticketing Company Ltd who issue M-Cards.

 

[sheff1]

No. We want to sell them on the buses: the resistance here comes from the railway companies who apparently don't want to train their staff on paper tickets issued by bus companies.

I assume that the train companies concerned are VTEC and Grand Central as all the other TOCs who operate in West Yorkshire also operate in South Yorkshire where their staff seem fully conversant with the paper tickets issued on buses and trams.

 

[34D]

I assume that the train companies concerned are VTEC and Grand Central as all the other TOCs who operate in West Yorkshire also operate in South Yorkshire where their staff seem fully conversant with the paper tickets issued on buses and trams.

I actually think it's an excuse for Metro/WYTC to justify not changing anything.

In reality, train & bus dayrover (adult, child, and family) could be issued on board both buses and trains tomorrow: all that is needed is a notice for every crew room.

In theory, the individual tickets will be covered by smartcards, but a family of 5 will always need a paper ticket (or am I wrong?)