Is train driving considered a skilled or semi skilled profession?

[Taunton]

Bus drivers only take a few weeks because they have prior driving licence experience on the road, typically for some years; it is just a new vehicle under much the same regulations and environment. Back in the 1930s-50s the typical bus driver had no prior experience with a car, and it took much longer.

Having handled all of a car, bus, train, boat and aircraft, I can tell you that the aircraft needs far and away the most skill, and the boat comes second. The train is pretty straightforward in comparison nowadays, though I suspect a steam locomotive was up at aircraft levels.

 

[notadriver]

Bus drivers only take a few weeks because they have prior driving licence experience on the road, typically for some years; it is just a new vehicle under much the same regulations and environment. Back in the 1930s-50s the typical bus driver had no prior experience with a car, and it took much longer.

Having handled all of a car, bus, train, boat and aircraft, I can tell you that the aircraft needs far and away the most skill, and the boat comes second. The train is pretty straightforward in comparison nowadays, though I suspect a steam locomotive was up at aircraft levels.

Just to be clear - you’ve driven a train at 100 mph plus during hours of darkness or heavy fog with poor visibility etc ?

 

[nottsnurse]

Skilled - if the driver loses his attention, I may die.

As an Intensive Care nurse, if you were under my care and I didn't pay attention (such as if you were receiving a Noradrenaline infusion and it ran out) you would die, no may about it.

Who earns more? A train driver or Intensive Care nurse?

For fullness, a nurse is considered a 'skilled' occupation, whereas a train driver isn't.

Skilled Worker visa: eligible occupations and codes

www.gov.uk

There is also.a worldwide shortage of appropriately 5.9m nurses (according to the WHO).

I don't begrudge train drivers for getting the pay they have (nursing unions are traditionally very poor and nurses will often consider those their industrial action may affect, whereas rail workers likely don't), but it is quite a strange state of affairs when someone who literally has your life in their hands gets paid less than someone who, if a large amount of Swiss cheese slices line up, may cause your death if they don't have much of a self-presevation drive.

 

[notadriver]

According to that list - scrolling down - a rail travel assistant is classed as skilled - but a train driver isn’t ?

 

[tlionhart]

Neither. Everyone I talk to seems to think we’re always on strike

 

[Ashley Hill]

In days of old I would definitely have said skilled. Multi-traction knowledge,faults and failures,goods and passenger work,different types of brake and often vast amounts of route knowledge. Now limited routes and traction and a fault line for failures. As for the actual driving,anyone can move a train but the skill is in stopping it!

 

[TheEdge]

I don't begrudge train drivers for getting the pay they have (nursing unions are traditionally very poor and nurses will often consider those their industrial action may affect, whereas rail workers likely don't), but it is quite a strange state of affairs when someone who literally has your life in their hands gets paid less than someone who, if a large amount of Swiss cheese slices line up, may cause your death if they don't have much of a self-presevation drive.

In the family friendly version of the saying, "everything before a but is a lie"...

Both roles are skilled in different ways and both roles are perfectly capable of killing people in a variety of ways if they make a mistake.

 

[Astro_Orbiter]

In the family friendly version of the saying, "everything before a but is a lie"...

Both roles are skilled in different ways and both roles are perfectly capable of killing people in a variety of ways if they make a mistake.

There is absolutely no reason to start comparing train drivers to anyone, least of all nurses. The jobs are not similar in any way, and this sort of baiting, especially during the pandemic, of comparing every role in the country to how poorly paid nurses are is frankly idiotic.
Completely different roles requiring entirely different skills and experience.

 

[AlterEgo]

Level 3 or A Level equivalent is the minimum standard for eligibility for a skilled worker visa (what replaced tier 2 visas in January). The salary threshold for a job that is not on skills shortage list is £25,600. Therefore a ToC would have very few problems sponsoring a migrant for a train drivers job. Its unlikely they would want to because of the level of interest from Brits but the job meets the criteria for skilled for purposes of immigration.

In response to this, and the OP's question, train guards, and several other railway ops grades, are eligible for skilled worker visas:

Retail service manager (railways)
Station assistant (underground railway)
Ticket inspector (railways)
Train conductor
Train manager

Skilled Worker visa: eligible occupations and codes

www.gov.uk

 

[LCC106]

I haven’t read any of the comments but I am aware anecdotally that one university professor sat a guard course and another a driver’s course from classroom to pass out. The one sitting the latter certainly said that what they were taught should be the equivalent of a degree sat over a far longer period. ***edited to add I consider that to be skilled***

 

[dk1]

Very skilled indeed. How I balance all those wheels on the rail I will never know. I amaze myself everyday.

 

[irish_rail]

In days of old I would definitely have said skilled. Multi-traction knowledge,faults and failures,goods and passenger work,different types of brake and often vast amounts of route knowledge. Now limited routes and traction and a fault line for failures. As for the actual driving,anyone can move a train but the skill is in stopping it!

So Plymouth drivers are skilled in that case.
Routes are Penzance all the way to London including diversionaries, various branch lines, the complex depot at Laira too.
As for traction, 57s(basically the same as handling an old 47), 08s (1950s vintage), not to mention 1970s HSTs and more modern 80x Hitachis and sprinters as well, and even XC voyagers on the depot to boot . And don't forget the train management systems that we deal with on the 80x and voyagers.
All in all id say rather skilled......

 

[Llanigraham]

Bus drivers only take a few weeks because they have prior driving licence experience on the road, typically for some years; it is just a new vehicle under much the same regulations and environment. Back in the 1930s-50s the typical bus driver had no prior experience with a car, and it took much longer.

Having handled all of a car, bus, train, boat and aircraft, I can tell you that the aircraft needs far and away the most skill, and the boat comes second. The train is pretty straightforward in comparison nowadays, though I suspect a steam locomotive was up at aircraft levels.

Well I regularly steer a 68' boat, often into 7'6" wide holes and I wouldn't call that very skilled!
Now I wonder where everybody would classify a signaller?

 

[ComUtoR]

Now I wonder where everybody would classify a signaller?

We pull levers, you push buttons. Only one of us has a fish tank to keep us nice and relaxed whilst the kettle boils...

Just to be clear - you’ve driven a train at 100 mph (deleted) during hours of darkness or heavy fog with poor visibility etc ?

I have, twasn't hard.

 

[Ashley Hill]

So Plymouth drivers are skilled in that case.
Routes are Penzance all the way to London including diversionaries, various branch lines, the complex depot at Laira too.
As for traction, 57s(basically the same as handling an old 47), 08s (1950s vintage), not to mention 1970s HSTs and more modern 80x Hitachis and sprinters as well, and even XC voyagers on the depot to boot . And don't forget the train management systems that we deal with on the 80x and voyagers.
All in all id say rather skilled......

Yes but then you're HSS,compare that to GWR drivers. Do all PLY drivers sign 08s and Voyagers or is that just the drivers outstationed at LA? Even when 57s or Castles expire most drivers from whichever depot call control for advice because they are no longer expected to fault find.

 

[irish_rail]

Yes but then you're HSS,compare that to GWR drivers. Do all PLY drivers sign 08s and Voyagers or is that just the drivers outstationed at LA? Even when 57s or Castles expire most drivers from whichever depot call control for advice because they are no longer expected to fault find.

All Plymouth HSS drivers sign 08 and voyagers not just the Laira guys.
Its true that the GwR drivers are significantly underskilled at the moment but learning the other routes and traction is on the cards, just taking time thats all.

 

[godfreycomplex]

They have and use a skill, ergo they’re skilled.
One wonders if the nebulous division into skilled and unskilled is anything other than hugely damaging, a job either benefits society in some way (and the majority do) or it doesn’t

 

[LRV3004]

I find it difficult to believe that any job where the postholder has other people's lives literally in their hands can be anything but skilled. Pilots, boat captain, bus drivers, train drivers - all are surely skilled roles?

According to a certain news broadcast made last year, bus drivers aren’t skilled. That caused a rumpus afterwards that did………
Getting back on topic, I would class train driving as “specialised skills” - it’s certainly not an industry where if a train operator needed a driver, they could call an agency and say “we need X number of train drivers today”. Of course, freight operators do hire drivers from other companies when necessary; I’ve seen that happen a few times at our place.

 

[Llanigraham]

We pull levers, you push buttons. Only one of us has a fish tank to keep us nice and relaxed whilst the kettle boils...



I have, twasn't hard.

Cough!!
Some us still pull big levers.
I can think of atleast one traditional signal box that has an aquarium.

And we tell drivers what to do!

 

[wobman]

Very skilled indeed. How I balance all those wheels on the rail I will never know. I amaze myself everyday.

Especially on days like today, on low adhesion days driving a pair of 153's..... Where's that sander button gone in a dark cab lol

 

[al78]

As for the actual driving,anyone can move a train but the skill is in stopping it!

Stopping it is easy, either apply the brakes or use a solid heavy obstruction.

Stopping it in exactly the right place and safely in varying conditions is the skilful bit I suspect.

There is absolutely no reason to start comparing train drivers to anyone, least of all nurses. The jobs are not similar in any way, and this sort of baiting, especially during the pandemic, of comparing every role in the country to how poorly paid nurses are is frankly idiotic.
Completely different roles requiring entirely different skills and experience.

I kind of agree but I wouldn't go as far to call it idiotic. Certain comparisons make you realise that our modern day capitalist system has it completely backward with what is valuable in the sense of humanity and monetary value. For example, compare how much it costs to go to a football match to the price of a bottle of water. Now consider never being allowed to go to a football match for the rest of your life vs not being allowed to drink water for the rest of your life. You could live with the former easily enough, and wouldn't suffer long in the latter because you would be dead within a week. Compare how much premier league football players are paid to nurses, then ask yourself whether premiership football players are really X times more valuable to society than nurses. It is because someone's salary is not reflected in their benefit to humanity, but the level of responsibility, how much skill/training is required, how much money they bring in, and how replacable they are (amongst other things).

It is the same reason we have unsuatainable resource depletion and environmental destruction. It doesn't show up on the monetary balance sheet, so it isn't classed as a cost, but it is if you look beyond money at the big picture.

 

[Egg Centric]

The definition of a skilled job is anything I do.

The definition of an unskilled job is anything I don’t

More seriously I think we need extremely detailed definitions of both to answer this. But the more detailed the definitions get I have to ask what the point in this differentiation is? Why does it matter?

I am 100% certain I could do a train driver’s job (if I went through a train driver’s training course) but I don’t see how that’s particularly informative and I certainly don’t consider myself “superior” in any way.

Am also 100% certain some train drivers could do my job (not really any courses available in quite the same way so far as I know but it can be learned)

Indeed there are examples of cross overs in both directions.

 

[scotraildriver]

As an Intensive Care nurse, if you were under my care and I didn't pay attention (such as if you were receiving a Noradrenaline infusion and it ran out) you would die, no may about it.

Who earns more? A train driver or Intensive Care nurse?

For fullness, a nurse is considered a 'skilled' occupation, whereas a train driver isn't.

Skilled Worker visa: eligible occupations and codes

www.gov.uk

There is also.a worldwide shortage of appropriately 5.9m nurses (according to the WHO).

I don't begrudge train drivers for getting the pay they have (nursing unions are traditionally very poor and nurses will often consider those their industrial action may affect, whereas rail workers likely don't), but it is quite a strange state of affairs when someone who literally has your life in their hands gets paid less than someone who, if a large amount of Swiss cheese slices line up, may cause your death if they don't have much of a self-presevation drive.

Whilst I don't think comparing nurses to train drivers is particularly relevant, you're point about making a mistake potential killing someone is very true. However a nurse will kill one person, a mistake by a train driver could kill many people. Take Ladbroke Grove. 1 mistake by the driver cost 31 lives just like that. Nurses do a fabulous job, day in day out, but train drives also carry massive responsibility every journey. Mistakes are thankfully rare but can be highly catastrophic when they happen.

 

[Fragezeichnen]

I'm not sure it's relevant to consider responsibility as relevant to skill. If you put someone in front of a button and tell them they have to press it every 5 minutes or there will be a explosion, that job is obviously responsible but not skilled.

My sense is that "skilled", refers mainly to jobs which require complex analysis, decision making and problem solving, and not to purely physical skills, even if they are not easy to master.

If you compare a Train Driver, who is expected to be fully productive and deal with all situations correctly on their first day driving alone, with a civil engineer will accumulate experience over decades and will gradually go from being responsible for a small part of project to a whole large project or many projects simulataneously, then I think that's clearly a different class of "skill".

Considering purely control of the traction and braking of the train I would not see that as "skilled". However, including also the complexity of the rulebook and operational situations which can occur, and that the driver must also deal with solving technical problems with the train, I think a Driver does count as "skilled".

 

[Caboose Class]

In the skilled worker - eligible occupations, I notice that footballers aren't listed. So how come we have so many foreign footballers playing in this country?

 

[matt_world2004]

I would argue anything that requires a licence to perform based on competency or requires qualifications to perform the task is a skilled worker.

It doesn't matter if 90% of the time the skilled worker is just pushing door closed buttons. Planes for example are highly automated the skills are there to respond appropriately when the automation goes wrong or the task requires specialist training to perform during an emergency.

 

[XAM2175]

In the skilled worker - eligible occupations, I notice that footballers aren't listed. So how come we have so many foreign footballers playing in this country?

By way of the International Sportsperson visa, for a start.

International Sportsperson visa

Apply for an International Sportsperson visa if you're an elite sportsperson or coach with sponsorship - getting sponsored, eligibility, documents, extend your visa, family members

www.gov.uk

 

[al78]

In the skilled worker - eligible occupations, I notice that footballers aren't listed. So how come we have so many foreign footballers playing in this country?

Because they play better than the UK players on average, which boosts a team's success, bringing in more money.

 

[Caboose Class]

Because they play better than the UK players on average, which boosts a team's success, bringing in more money.

And I also notice that they must have at least £1,270 in their bank account to show they can support themselves in the UK. What, when some of these guys are on £50,000 a week or more? It's a complete joke! No wonder we haven't won Jack since 1966!!!!!!!

 

[adc82140]

I say skilled. It's not the action of the job as such, but the understanding of the consequences of your actions, and being responsible for them.

Rough equivalence: My job involves a bit of mouse clicking and button pushing. But there is a constant reminder etched on the screen in front of me "the operator is responsible for patient radiation exposure and safety". That makes my computer keyboard tapping a skilled job.