Issue occured need info and advice

[Wrongday101]

I was travelling on an overground line in London from one station and stopped at another station some stops after (tapping in and out no problems whatsoever.)

On the way back (same route I originally took) I first went to the machine to check if I had money in my oyster (18+) taking some cards out of my wallet including my oyster. I saw I had some money in my oyster so I then went to the barricades and tapped in and got through the station on to the platform. After boarding the train the inspector asked to check my oyster. I showed him my oyster and he said I hadnt tapped my oyster to my suprise! He said I had not tapped in since my last journey which I did that day. He then said he would be making note of the issue and asked me for my address and ID card to which I did so after speaking to him abit to see if he would stop hassling me (but he showed no mercy). After this he said I would receive a letter from tfl.

On reflecting back I realise what may have happened is when I approached the barricades and attempted to tap with my oyster I may have ended up paying and actually tapping the barricades with another one of my cards. I carry debit cards and sometimes a normal oyster card just incase my 18+ doesnt have enough money. This may be the reason why I got through the barricades but my 18+ oyster did not show proof of tapping the barricades and paying according to the inspector and his small machine reader.

What I wanted to ask was apparently I will receive a letter and it was an honest mistake as cliche as it sounds and I do not want to go to court whether thats to settle a dispute and pay them or get a criminal record. I feel I am innocent as it was a genuine mistake so in this case what would be the consequences for me as I do not want to go court?

Thank you for taking the time to read this.

 

[Wrongday101]

Also what should I write in the letter they send me ?

 

[some bloke]

Hi Wrongday101 - I'm sorry you're in this position. Can you find a relevant touch-in on a debit card's online journey history?

 

[Brissle Girl]

Or alternatively check the online accounts of your bank/credit cards to see whether an amount was taken that you weren't expecting. Especially if there is one where there wasn't a corresponding touch out, so presumably you would be charged a maximum fare?

 

[Wrongday101]

Its not come up on my bank statement so im not sure but sometimes touchless transactions take time to show. It may have been the bank card or a general top up oyster card that I sometimes carry.

My worry is that they will try to take me to court which I dont want to go to. How likely is it that they will let me off or accept an out of court settlement. (Really annoying to even write this as I feel im innocent) Also what are the consequences of not going court or not paying after court. Im unemployed and am really low on money I cant afford to be pay hundreds or thousands from court.

Could anyone advice me as to what I should write in the letter in response to tfl and what the likely outcome would be. I have never committed a crime before nor have I had any issues with tfl before.

Thank you for taking the time to

Or alternatively check the online accounts of your bank/credit cards to see whether an amount was taken that you weren't expecting. Especially if there is one where there wasn't a corresponding touch out, so presumably you would be charged a maximum fare?

read this and advising me

 

[30907]

You also need to check both your Oysters.

 

[Brissle Girl]

As 30907 says , check your other Oyster. Is it registered, so you can check the history online? If not, I'm not sure if you register it now will it show prior history, but you could try. Failing that, I'm not sure whether TfL can advise you whether there was a tap in at the relevant time on it. You can only ask.

So there are two scenarios. The first is that you can find evidence of a card clash, in which case the approach will be to write back, explain, with all the information to hand, including any evidence (eg online bank statement) apologise profusely, and ask if you can settle anything due (though you've actually probably paid too much), including their administration costs. TfL quite heavily promote the risks of card clash, so you can't say you weren't warned - it might be worth acknowledging this point in the letter.

The second scenario is that you can't find any evidence and have to take it on the chin that you didn't actually tap in. Unfortunately, whether mistakenly or not, you were travelling without a valid ticket, and all you can do is apologise and ask for an out of court settlement, and say you will be much more careful in future to ensure that the transaction is registered. In this situation, don't say you were innocent - the intent may not have been there, but you were breaking the law.

Whatever you do, don't ignore the court hearing, or fail to pay. That will magnify the consequences exponentially, badly affect your credit rating, make finding a job more difficult, could see the balliffs sent in, etc, etc.

Hopefully you will find some evidence though, fingers crossed!

 

[some bloke]

A card's journey history is likely to be more helpful than the bank statement, because it would show a relevant time for the touch in.

What you write may depend on what they allege. You're guilty of not producing a valid ticket when asked (if you didn't touch in with that card) - but you may have a very reasonable explanation. If you touched in with a different card, you're not guilty of entering a train without a valid ticket.

One thing you could do now is write down all that you remember about taking the cards out, checking at the machine and going to tap in - in case you find there was no valid tap in and your memory fades by the time they write (they have up to six months before starting a prosecution, and even though they'd normally write much earlier it may still be some time).

As @Brissle Girl says, if it comes to it please don't ignore a court hearing or fail to pay a fine.

Levels of fines may be lower than you expect if you are worried about hundreds or thousands, particularly in cases where they allege a byelaw offence that doesn't involve intent to avoid a fare. Also it may be reassuring to some extent that court fines take people's financial circumstances into account:

https://www.sentencingcouncil.org.u...es-2/4-assessment-of-financial-circumstances/

Can anyone comment on this: if Wrongday101 finds a touch in on a different card, might there be a reasonable chance that TfL would drop the matter?

 

[Wrongday101]

Thank you for the all information everyone

 

[najaB]

Can anyone comment on this: if Wrongday101 finds a touch in on a different card, might there be a reasonable chance that TfL would drop the matter

Maybe. The problem is convincing them that this card hasn't been loaned by someone else in order to get you out of a pickle.

 

[some bloke]

Perhaps I've misunderstood something. Is it an 18+ student Oyster, and did you mean you're studying when you said you're unemployed? It says here validity stops when the course stops.
https://tfl.gov.uk/fares/free-and-discounted-travel/18-plus-student-oyster-photocard

About this journey, something that might be worth mentioning if it applies is this. @Brissle Girl mentioned a maximum charge above. When you said there was no problem touching out, do you mean you touched out with the 18+ Oyster? If so, you may have had a maximum journey charge for a no-touch-in on that card, as well as another max. charge for not touching out with another card. TfL may have already had much more from you than they would have got for that journey if you'd only used the main card - especially as the others don't have the discount.

Just to be sure, you're aware that you can check recent Oyster journey history at machines at many if not all tube stations and at least some Overground stations?

The problem is convincing them that this card hasn't been loaned by someone else

If it's a debit card, hopefully Wrongday101 wouldn't have much trouble providing evidence that it was their own.

If it's an Oyster (or a debit card), TfL or a court might think it unlikely that Wrongday101 could have found someone whose card history matches that combination - a relevant touch in for that time and place, and no touch out.

 

[najaB]

If it's a debit card, hopefully Wrongday101 wouldn't have much trouble providing evidence that it was their own.

Agreed.

If it's an Oyster (or a debit card), TfL or a court might think it unlikely that Wrongday101 could have found someone whose card history matches that combination - a relevant touch in for that time and place, and no touch out.

That may depend on what happened after the OP encountered the RPI. There may be an incomplete journey, or there may be a complete one on the second card. Or maybe there won't be a journey recorded at all.

 

[Wrongday101]

Maybe. The problem is convincing them that this card hasn't been loaned by someone else in order to get you out of a pickle.

Thats not an issue because i showed the inspector my oyster card which had my face on it

 

[Wrongday101]

Agreed.
That may depend on what happened after the OP encountered the RPI. There may be an incomplete journey, or there may be a complete one on the second card. Or maybe there won't be a journey recorded at all.

I tapped in but when i went on the train they said i hadnt tapped in

 

[Wrongday101]

As 30907 says , check your other Oyster. Is it registered, so you can check the history online? If not, I'm not sure if you register it now will it show prior history, but you could try. Failing that, I'm not sure whether TfL can advise you whether there was a tap in at the relevant time on it. You can only ask.

So there are two scenarios. The first is that you can find evidence of a card clash, in which case the approach will be to write back, explain, with all the information to hand, including any evidence (eg online bank statement) apologise profusely, and ask if you can settle anything due (though you've actually probably paid too much), including their administration costs. TfL quite heavily promote the risks of card clash, so you can't say you weren't warned - it might be worth acknowledging this point in the letter.

The second scenario is that you can't find any evidence and have to take it on the chin that you didn't actually tap in. Unfortunately, whether mistakenly or not, you were travelling without a valid ticket, and all you can do is apologise and ask for an out of court settlement, and say you will be much more careful in future to ensure that the transaction is registered. In this situation, don't say you were innocent - the intent may not have been there, but you were breaking the law.

Whatever you do, don't ignore the court hearing, or fail to pay. That will magnify the consequences exponentially, badly affect your credit rating, make finding a job more difficult, could see the balliffs sent in, etc, etc.

Hopefully you will find some evidence though, fingers crossed!

Why is it in regards to the 2nd scenario i shouldnt say im innocent?

 

[najaB]

Why is it in regards to the 2nd scenario i shouldnt say im innocent?

Because your Oyster card wasn't tapped in, and you wouldn't be able to show any other card that was.

 

[MikeWh]

Can anyone comment on this: if Wrongday101 finds a touch in on a different card, might there be a reasonable chance that TfL would drop the matter?

It's possible. As long as both cards are yours and the journey history matches.

Perhaps I've misunderstood something. Is it an 18+ student Oyster, and did you mean you're studying when you said you're unemployed? It says here validity stops when the course stops.

This is quite key. Can you confirm your education status? 18+ Oysters are supposed to be cancelled once the course you were on finishes. If it hasn't been cancelled and you aren't still a student, are you only using PAYG, or do you sometimes get travelcards?

 

[Brissle Girl]

Why is it in regards to the 2nd scenario i shouldnt say im innocent?

Try not to confuse intent with fact.

It is a matter of fact that if you did not have a valid ticket then you are guilty of not having a valid ticket. Whether or not this was intentional or not is irrelevant.

Similarly, if you are prosecuted for driving at 80mph in a 70 limit, the fact that your speed crept up and you didn’t notice it doesn’t make you innocent, you’ve still broken the law.

 

[Wrongday101]

If i say im guilty will they just fine me and let me pay an out of court settlement fee ?

I really cant be bothered with all this hassle

 

[najaB]

If i say im guilty will they just fine me and let me pay an out of court settlement fee ?

The two are mutually exclusive.

 

[Wrongday101]

The two are mutually exclusive.

What do you mean

 

[AlterEgo]

What do you mean

Either one happens or the other happens. An out of court settlement means you pay money to avoid going to court and close the matter. It is not the same as the court fining you.

 

[MoniiMonzx]

Either one happens or the other happens. An out of court settlement means you pay money to avoid going to court and close the matter. It is not the same as the court fining you.

What would you say the chances of settling out of court are?

 

[Wrongday101]

Either one happens or the other happens. An out of court settlement means you pay money to avoid going to court and close the matter. It is not the same as the court fining you.

Oh ok

I would much rather just pay an out of court settlement

So should i just plead guilty and say i wish to pay for an out of court settlement after explaining abit about the situation ?

 

[some bloke]

Whether they prosecute, and if so what for, may depend at least partly on what evidence you provide.

Checking card histories may be easier to do now than if you leave it till later.

 

[Fawkes Cat]

I really cant be bothered with all this hassle

If this really is your position, then the solution that is the least hassle will be to not get involved in any way until you are taken to court, and then plead guilty.

But this has fairly substantial drawbacks. If you plead guilty (or are found guilty by the court), you will have to pay a fine. You will also have to pay compensation to the victim (which is a long way of saying that you will have to pay the disputed fare) and court and prosecution costs - in all, some hundreds of pounds. Depending on quite what law you are charged under, you may also get a criminal record which for a year or so you will have to tell employers about if they ask - and the impression we get here is that financial jobs (so more or less anything in the City of London) rely heavily on people not having any criminal record.

That sounds to me like 'hassle'. So it's an unfortunate fact that you will unavoidably face some sort of hassle in sorting out this situation. It's your choice whether that's hassle now of rounding up information and discussing what has happened with TfL in the hope that they can be persuaded to drop their enquiry, or the hassle later of having to pay money and maybe get a criminal record.

There's a discussion to be had about whether things should be like this. But for the moment, that's how things are, so that's the system you are going to have to work within.

 

[MikeWh]

Oh ok

I would much rather just pay an out of court settlement

So should i just plead guilty and say i wish to pay for an out of court settlement after explaining abit about the situation ?

You only plead guilty to the court, if it gets that far. If TfL ask for your side of the story you can apologise for making the error and ask for the matter to be settled as quickly as possible without troubling the court. This will be much easier if you have found the card which you actually touched in with. If they won't settle then pleading guilty at the earliest opportunity to the court will minimise the size of the fine you get.

 

[Wrongday101]

You only plead guilty to the court, if it gets that far. If TfL ask for your side of the story you can apologise for making the error and ask for the matter to be settled as quickly as possible without troubling the court. This will be much easier if you have found the card which you actually touched in with. If they won't settle then pleading guilty at the earliest opportunity to the court will minimise the size of the fine you get.

But in the letter tfl sent me it says for me to reply and say whether i accept committing the offence or deny it ?

What do i write then

 

[Fawkes Cat]

But in the letter tfl sent me it says for me to reply and say whether i accept committing the offence or deny it ?

What do i write then

This may sound silly, but don't take TfL's wording too literally. As I understand it, your position is that by the letter of the law you did commit an offence (you didn't produce a validated Oyster card/contactless card/paper ticket when you were meant to) but you had a good excuse (you did have a validated card or whatever but couldn't find it). So that's what you need to tell them. But while you are not legally required to help TfL, I would suggest that if you have evidence to prove (or support) your story, then you tell TfL about that. That means looking at the online Oyster system to see if you can find a started journey on one of your other cards, and if it is a credit or debit card, the statement should also show that a payment was taken.

Producing evidence will help TfL to agree that you are telling the truth. But there's no guarantee that they will agree that you had a good excuse. Even so, if you don't tell them your excuse, I am pretty sure that they won't agree with you.

 

[some bloke]

It may seem like hassle now, but learning how the system works and dealing with it may give you confidence for these kinds of problems in the future.

But in the letter tfl sent me it says for me to reply and say whether i accept committing the offence or deny it ?

What do i write then

Here is a general suggestion. You could go through this thread, collecting together any advice you think might be useful in future - by highlighting, copying or taking screenshots. Because some of the facts and uses of words may be new to you, it's natural that you may need to read some of the advice more than once.

We don't yet know what they may allege (or their attitude).

What you write may depend on what they allege. You're guilty of not producing a valid ticket when asked (if you didn't touch in with that card) - but you may have a very reasonable explanation. If you touched in with a different card, you're not guilty of entering a train without a valid ticket.

You mentioned barriers. So unless you accidentally went in behind someone else, it seems likely that you did touch in with a different card.

If so, you're automatically guilty under byelaw 18 (2) because you failed to show your ticket (if the byelaw means you have to show a valid ticket).

But you wouldn't be guilty if they alleged a breach of 18 (1) (ie entering the train without a valid ticket).

See this PDF document under "TfL Railway Byelaws":
https://tfl.gov.uk/corporate/terms-and-conditions/byelaws#on-this-page-1

As above, TfL might drop the whole thing if you have evidence of already having paid. The 7-day journey history section here may be relevant: https://contactless.tfl.gov.uk/

If you can't see a touch in, then as above, try to remember any other details about exactly how you assumed you'd touched in. Otherwise TfL might be more likely to think you were trying to avoid paying.