Issues & potential conflicts regarding CrossCountry's short-notice reservation system

[Starmill]

Split from: Told to move from unmarked reserved seat...

No reservation labels placed means no reservation enforceable.

No need to move at all. Tough luck to that couple. It's a fair game.

I certainly would not have if I were travelling on full fare tickets.

The only exception would be when it is someone vulnerable.

What about if you're travelling on one of the seats on a CrossCountry 170 which can be reserved on the day, and someone reserves that seat while you're sat in it and then joins the train and asks you to move? The 170s don't have electronic labels so you have no way to know that the seat has become reserved, but the person has just reserved that seat.

As far as I can tell, this policy and the announcements made by XC onboard crew would suggest that they have never heard of Neil William's rules, written ones or otherwise.

 

[bb21]

What about if you're travelling on one of the seats on a CrossCountry 170 which can be reserved on the day, and someone reserves that seat while you're sat in it and then joins the train and asks you to move? The 170s don't have electronic labels so you have no way to know that the seat has become reserved, but the person has just reserved that seat.

As far as I can tell, this policy and the announcements made by XC onboard crew would suggest that they have never heard of Neil William's rules, written ones or otherwise.

Isn't there a sign there clearly telling you the seat may be reserved en route?

 

[Starmill]

I don't know, is there? Everywhere where you might sit that could be reserved? And does a sign that says a seat may be reserved actually say it is reserved?

 

[FQ]

Isn't there a sign there clearly telling you the seat may be reserved en route?

Yep, there is.

 

[Starmill]

The same sign is displayed above every seat in coaches in a Voyager, where the reservation actually appears on the screen.

Is an invisible reservation enforceable if there is a sign telling you? Every seat on the train "may be reserved" technically.

No entitlement to compensation either in my book.

So the person who isn't entitled to compensation should have to move, while the person who is should get to sit down? You have a very interesting book.

 

[Welly]

Trouble with electronic reservation displays above each seat is that they are not visible to the passenger in the seat and they are small and squinty too!

 

[Bletchleyite]

As far as I can tell, this policy and the announcements made by XC onboard crew would suggest that they have never heard of Neil William's rules, written ones or otherwise.

On the Voyagers the display shows "seat may be reserved" - the concept is lifted directly from their owners DB where it's "gegebenenfalls reserviert". ISTR that in the area where this applies (it isn't the whole train) on the 170s there are stickers indicating it.

I really don't get why other trains don't just have stickers stating clearly the policy, whatever it is, in the event of non-placed reservations. It barely matters what the policy is, all that matters is that everyone knows what it is, and it is the same for all trains where reservations are available nationally.

By the way they aren't "my rules", they are what has in practice been done on most of the network right back to BR days.

 

[Starmill]

Well it certainly does not ring true nowadays. And the signs that say the seat may be reserved by an invisible reservation are a nonsense. The reservation must be visible in order to be enforced - either that, or the train is marked reservation compulsory and only passengers with reservations are allowed on.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Well it certainly does not ring true nowadays. And the signs that say the seat may be reserved by an invisible reservation are a nonsense. The reservation must be visible in order to be enforced - either that, or the train is marked reservation compulsory and only passengers with reservations are allowed on.

It does ring true on most TOCs, XC is a bit of an oddity because (a) of TMR, and (b) of the incredible unreliability of the electronic displays on Voyagers.

PKP IC do a bit of a hybrid, reservations are unmarked and all tickets are sold with a reservation, but you can buy a ticket on board or get on the wrong train legitimately, it just means you have to play a seat guessing game.

If we can get to a situation where "TMRs" XC-style can be obtained from TVMs, I think we could move to non-placed reservations, with a reservable area/coaches and unreservable area/coaches marked more permanently. I'd far rather saunter up to a TVM on arrival at the station, look at the seat map, grab a reservation then avoid the Euston scrum, say. That would be a reasonable hybrid without losing walk-up flexibility. You could also have a situation where you could obtain a reservation for a reserved coach from the buffet or an on-board machine if you wanted, or on your phone.

 

[yorkie]

Isn't there a sign there clearly telling you the seat may be reserved en route?

That's correct, there is such a notice, based on my observations.

 

[Starmill]

That's correct, there is such a notice, based on my observations.

So is the seat reserved or not? The sign says the seat may be reserved. This applies to every seat on the train, at all times - and without the need of a sign to say so. If the result of this is that nobody may use those seats then the train company should be up-front about that and plan accordingly.

It does ring true on most TOCs, XC is a bit of an oddity because (a) of TMR, and (b) of the incredible unreliability of the electronic displays on Voyagers.

I don't think so. I've had several Virgin Trains and TransPennine guards try to tell people to vacate seats if asked by the reservation holder when the displays had failed or there were no reservation labels. I'm sure there have been others.

 

[sheff1]

Trouble with electronic reservation displays above each seat is that they are not visible to the passenger in the seat and they are small and squinty too!

Very true. I travelled on the Enterprise from Belfast to Dublin last week and adjacent to every electronic reservation display was a small light which was red if the seat was reserved and green if it was not. These red/green lights were instantly visible all the way down the carriage as soon as you entered which made it very easy for those without reservations to head for the 'green seats'.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Very true. I travelled on the Enterprise from Belfast to Dublin last week and adjacent to every electronic reservation display was a small light which was red if the seat was reserved and green if it was not. These red/green lights were instantly visible all the way down the carriage as soon as you entered which made it very easy for those without reservations to head for the 'green seats'.

Both the Class 80x and the East Anglia Stadler FLIRTs will have such a system.

 

[najaB]

So is the seat reserved or not? The sign says the seat may be reserved. This applies to every seat on the train, at all times - and without the need of a sign to say so.

That's not the case. Only a portion of the seats are available for ten-minute reservations. The ones which aren't are fair game and are nominally either reserved (with reservation card/sign visible saying what portion of the journey they are reserved for) or are unreserved for the entire journey.

 

[Starmill]

That's not the case. Only a portion of the seats are available for ten-minute reservations. The ones which aren't are fair game and are nominally either reserved (with reservation card/sign visible saying what portion of the journey they are reserved for) or are unreserved for the entire journey.

Which seats are and are not available? I been assigned reservations all over the place using APOD, not just in coach D.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Which seats are and are not available? I been assigned reservations all over the place using APOD, not just in coach D.

On a Voyager? The ones that say "this seat may be reserved" on the display, it isn't all of them.

 

[najaB]

Which seats are and are not available? I been assigned reservations all over the place using APOD, not just in coach D.

'Traditional' Advance reservations can be in any part of the train, ten-minute reservations are limited to a smaller subset of the seats.

So, if you board a CrossCountry train and sit in a 'non-TMR' seat which is displaying no reservation you are in exactly the same position as you would be on any other company's trains.

 

[Baxenden Bank]

Very true. I travelled on the Enterprise from Belfast to Dublin last week and adjacent to every electronic reservation display was a small light which was red if the seat was reserved and green if it was not. These red/green lights were instantly visible all the way down the carriage as soon as you entered which made it very easy for those without reservations to head for the 'green seats'.

I'm red/green colour blind (the most common variety, others are available). Does that mean I can sit in any seat because they both look the same to me? Can I claim disability discrimination?

To be honest, I wish designers would simply engage brain and use a different choice of colours. Or simply have light off - not reserved, light on - reserved. Like a London taxi roof light - available for hire or not.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Can you not just read the display text?

 

[mark-h]

On long routes like the ones XC run a single reserved light per seat would not be that useful. Would it show reserved for the full journey from Penzance if the seat is only reserved between Edinburgh and Dundee?

 

[edwin_m]

On long routes like the ones XC run a single reserved light per seat would not be that useful. Would it show reserved for the full journey from Penzance if the seat is only reserved between Edinburgh and Dundee?

There is still an alphanumeric display as well as the light, and the Class 800/801 are specified also to have an amber light to indicate the seat is reserved later in its journey. I guess if any of the operators adopt the XC system they would also use amber for "may be reserved"). It should make it much easier to spot any unreserved seats by green lights, as you can do on traditional systems by the lack of seat tickets. And if there are no empty seats with a green light, at least the amber highlights the ones where it would be worth reading the display.

Trying to find an empty seat by displays alone is pretty tedious, especially on the ones where the software scrolls the display so you have to wait until the relevant part of the message appears.

 

[GadgetMan]

I'm red/green colour blind (the most common variety, others are available). Does that mean I can sit in any seat because they both look the same to me? Can I claim disability discrimination?

To be honest, I wish designers would simply engage brain and use a different choice of colours. Or simply have light off - not reserved, light on - reserved. Like a London taxi roof light - available for hire or not.

So you're crying that red/green lights discriminate against colour blind passengers.

Then go on to suggest on/off lights. Surely they discriminate against blind passengers.

It's not always easy to come up with practical solutions that work for everyone in society.

 

[Mag_seven]

I know this has been debated to death before but I'd just abolish seat reservations particularly on routes where there is a frequent service. I was on a GWR service the other day and half of the reserved seats in my coach were unclaimed after departure from Paddington.

 

[Dhassell]

I believe that seats that can become reserved as placed as "This seat may be reserved" and when they do become reserved actually show the stations which they will be reserved between.

 

[Master29]

One wonders why people just don`t reserve a seat when they buy the ticket, whether online or at a ticket office rather than go through all this quagmire. Don`t cost anything. Problem solved. Get fed up with this kind of thing. I regularly go from Cornwall to Bristol and always reserve a seat even if it`s within a day or so of the journey. I get the 10 minute part but how many people actually do this.
Amazing how many people spend ages looking at seat reservations on Voyagers during this trip.

 

[Gemz91]

One wonders why people just don`t reserve a seat when they buy the ticket, whether online or at a ticket office rather than go through all this quagmire. Don`t cost anything. Problem solved. Get fed up with this kind of thing. I regularly go from Cornwall to Bristol and always reserve a seat even if it`s within a day or so of the journey. I get the 10 minute part but how many people actually do this.
Amazing how many people spend ages looking at seat reservations on Voyagers during this trip.

When I travel, I usually use walk up fares (as I have a priv its usually cheaper then advances). I rarely know what time train I will be travelling home on, so for me its not possible to book seats.

If I boarded a Cross Country train, and sit in a seat that says might become reserved part way through my journey, does it tell me how I can reserve that seat to save me getting turfed out? I rarely use Cross Country Trains so I am unfamiliar with this policy.

 

[Bletchleyite]

One wonders why people just don`t reserve a seat when they buy the ticket, whether online or at a ticket office.

Because same day you can't.

 

[edwin_m]

Because same day you can't.

You can on Cross Country, which is where we came in...

 

[sheff1]

If I boarded a Cross Country train, and sit in a seat that says might become reserved part way through my journey, does it tell me how I can reserve that seat to save me getting turfed out? I rarely use Cross Country Trains so I am unfamiliar with this policy.

There are some posters about the system on trains but I am not sure exactly what they say. The info is certainly on their website.

 

[talltim]

Can you reserve seats with a season ticket?