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Jeremy Corbyn pledges rail renationalisation

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90sWereBetter

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http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-34306333
BBC said:
Labour would renationalise the railways "line by line" if it formed the next government, new leader Jeremy Corbyn is expected to reveal.

The party intends to regain control of rail franchises as they expire, BBC correspondent Iain Watson reports.

The party is to set up a task force that will consider how to implement the plans - expected to be outlined at the party conference next week.

John Major's government split British Rail up into franchises 20 years ago.

Since then the number of passengers travelling on the railways has doubled, but the public subsidy has risen.

Mr Corbyn has previously said the railways should be renationalised along with Royal Mail and has opposed the high speed railway line HS2.
Incremental approach

The incremental renationalisation policy is expected to leave around two thirds of lines privately run after the first term of a future Labour government.

Its task force will also consider rail reforms such as simplified ticketing and better integration of services with other modes of transport.

The party argues an incremental approach to renationalisation, advocated by Mr Corbyn's leadership rival Andy Burnham, would be a cost-effective solution.

But Transport Secretary Patrick McLoughlin said Labour's approach was "a backwards-looking policy which would cost billions of pounds and leave less money to spend on improving services".

This could and should be a vote winner, what with 66% of voters across all parties wanting this.
 
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Hadders

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Oh dear.

Labour can say what they want at the moment because it'll never happen. I cannot see them winning a general election under Corbyn.
 

68000

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Justine Greening was on Andrew Marr show and she just spouted the same old 'We have record amounts of investment in the railways ... economic security... family security' It is all off a buzz phrase tick list

Marr failed to press the obvious that the company carrying out all the record investment is already nationalised and it is the train operations Corbyn is referring to!
 

gimmea50anyday

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But would renationalisation be a bad thing?

BR has 1.5 billion in subsidy and in some ways was the most efficient railway in the world. Bear in mind some of the current rail franchises are run by state owned railways, i.e netherlands, france and germany. So is state owned such a bad thing after all? The current privately run (not owned) franchises need 4bn in subsidy and there are 25 firms creaming off a 3% profit margin per franchise. But the private railways cannot adapt or change the service as the franchises are very prescriptive. Look at the oft quoted government line regarding trains "its up to the operator" yet whenever the operator wants more trains they have to go to the government to ask, and they say no!

Take another angle, the "big 6" energy firms. Each one of those 6 firms are claiming a £300million profit, EACH. Yet they complain its not enough and they want more. Now 6 lots of 300million adds up to 2 Billion pounds. Profits. If energy was nationalised thats 2 billion that could be going to the treasury. Instead its going to shareholders. So they can have more caviar and champagne breakfasts in their non-dom dormitory villas and pay no tax....

What we will see is a massive decline in service as the franchises end as the private companies seek to claw as much profit as possible and spend little to no money in running the firms they will soon lose control of, and with absolutely no incentive otherwise to keep running them.

Privatisation has taught the railway a lot of things when it comes to running the service and how to look after the passengers, but with the right subsidy level and the right people in charge, BR could have done as good a job for a lot less, and would have been far more reactive in providing the railway service especially with provision of rolling stock etc. The public want a 24/7 railway. BR did provide this as mail and newspaper trains often ran with a passenger carriage or two attached. Drivers and guards had wide route and traction knowledge which meant flexibility in what they were able to work. Disruption therefore was far better handled as trains were still able to keep moving and the issues of traincrew timing out or not being able to work a route was mitigated (it still happened but far less were situations caused when staff of one firm were sitting idle while another firm was cancelling trains due to no train crew)

Still think renationalisation is a bad thing?

BR had its faults, but it did a good job with what it was given, but there is no doubt it could have done things better. However government owned does generally mean wasteful overprocurement and excessive spends. Excessive time talking and not much doing which leads to cost over runs, poor planning and cuts and cancellations which inevitably cost more money (A1 Leeming bar being a classic. Cut after contracts were let, only for contracts to be re-let just 2 years later meaning all the planning applications etc had to be resubmitted) and this also had to be one of BR's biggest faults.
 
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Johnuk123

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Nationalisation was brilliant wasn't it, must have missed that then.
 

SS4

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Marr failed to press the obvious that the company carrying out all the record investment is already nationalised and it is the train operations Corbyn is referring to!

Makes you ask why he never brought it up doesn't it?

Forgive me if I sound ignorant but can't the next Parliament just abrogate any moves to nationalisation?
 

Hadders

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I'm neutral on whether nationalisation is better. I've been around long enough to remember British Rail and they did some good things and some awful things. Not dissimilar to what we have today.

I just can't see it happening because Labour won't win with Corbyn as leader.
 

gimmea50anyday

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Nationalisation was brilliant wasn't it, must have missed that then.

I didnt say nationalised was brilliant, it had its faults aswell as the bits it did well, thats not in dispute. however you do have to consider what NS, SNCF and DB are all doing right if between they are running a significant chunk of our "privatised" railways

Maybe perhaps a national private BR might have also done a better job. When you take into account the facilities management, the contractors etc There are too many bits, and each bit is making a profit. Where is all that money going? Delay attribution is a complicated money go round that is seen as a growth market and sensible regulation has been all but ditched as a result.
 

Johnuk123

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I didnt say nationalised was brilliant, it had its faults aswell as the bits it did well, thats not in dispute. however you do have to consider what NS, SNCF and DB are all doing right if between they are running a significant chunk of our "privatised" railways

Maybe perhaps a national private BR might have also done a better job. When you take into account the facilities management, the contractors etc There are too many bits, and each bit is making a profit. Where is all that money going? Delay attribution is a complicated money go round that is seen as a growth market and sensible regulation has been all but ditched as a result.

I never said you did say it, British Rail was generally awful, hope it never returns.
 

gimmea50anyday

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I just can't see it happening because Labour won't win with Corbyn as leader.

Give it time, give him a chance to prove himself. A lot of what he speaks is what people want which is how he got in. Not everyone agrees with his principles, and he doesnt agree with everything people want. But he may yet suprise us. Either that or he will fail miserably and we will be stuck with that arrogant tw@t *ahem* excuse me..... under the directorship of a tory government for another term!
 

Simon11

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My question is, which have performed better over the last 10 years, Network Rail or TOC's?

My personal solution would be to run regional & commuters on a concession contract, but long distance services are run as currently.
 

GrimsbyPacer

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Privatisation always leads to the same thing. Trying to get as much profit as possible and trying to increase dividends every year.
This causes rising prices and minimal investment.

Nationalisation should lead to trying to keep voters happy instead, so lower profits and fares instead.
Don't forget other countries' national TOCs are making money overseas, why can't New BR?
 

Whistler40145

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Well, under BR, anything ran, whether it made a profit or not, whereas under privatisation, it'll only run if it makes money, even if the service is required.
 

jimm

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This could and should be a vote winner, what with 66% of voters across all parties wanting this.

Promising more public control of the railways and the ripping-up of franchising didn't do much for Labour's prospects back in May, so I won't be holding my breath.

Well, under BR, anything ran, whether it made a profit or not, whereas under privatisation, it'll only run if it makes money, even if the service is required.

Really, so why is the government spending £4bn a year subsidising the rail system? Presumably so it runs all the services that patently obviously will never make money.
 

ainsworth74

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Just a reminder that we already have a thread on Jeremy Corbyn where discussion about his chances of winning a general election are being discussed and this can be found here. Therefore please leave this thread for discussion of this new proposal not the chances of Corbyn winning a General Election.

Thanks :)

Well, under BR, anything ran, whether it made a profit or not, whereas under privatisation, it'll only run if it makes money, even if the service is required.

Not quite. The services specified by the DfT will run whether they make a profit or not (and a lot of them don't make a profit) but services above and beyond what the TOC is contracted to provide by the DfT will only run if the TOC feels they can make a profit out of them.

So nationalised or not doesn't really make a difference in that regard.
 

StateOfPlay

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I think it is an interesting proposition. I don't remember British Rail as being that successful though, it had a poor reputation and I think I remember it had TV adverts saying "we're getting there". Which was a clever PR idea of apologising for not being good while also stating that we are getting you there.

But then there is a patriotic part of me that thinks we should be able to run our train network more efficiently than corporate companies whose main goal is profit.

I wonder whether the strength of the unions in the 70's and 80's was actually the demise of BR, and now that the unions are more collaborative it will mean it can now be a success.

But he biggest issue is money. We are struggling to maintain an NHS, Schools and Welfare, so where does spending on the railways come in any new government priority list?
 

samuelmorris

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Well, under BR, anything ran, whether it made a profit or not, whereas under privatisation, it'll only run if it makes money, even if the service is required.

Surely that's still somewhat the case now? I'm pretty sure large numbers of regional services are loss-leaders being propped up by the mainline long-distance and commuter services, even to the extent that whole TOCs are somewhat subsidising others by virtue of comparatively lower/higher premium payments.

I'm somewhat curious how this might affect open-access operators. Will they still be allowed? If so, is there any likelihood that more companies may try and get in on the act to squeeze out capacity gaps in the network that would otherwise be unnecessary to fill?
 

al.currie93

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I'm somewhat curious how this might affect open-access operators. Will they still be allowed? If so, is there any likelihood that more companies may try and get in on the act to squeeze out capacity gaps in the network that would otherwise be unnecessary to fill?

I think that they have to be, because of EU regulations stating that private companies have to have access to the railways. Also, the freight companies (DRS exempt) will have to remain private unless actually bought out, and all technically run as open access operators at the moment. Don't really have a problem with open access operators existing in line with a state operator - it worked quite well on the East Coast.
 

NSEFAN

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This line is one that crops up often:
BBC said:
Since then the number of passengers travelling on the railways has doubled, but the public subsidy has risen.
Why should more passengers mean the subsidy goes down? Assuming the service is improved with longer/more frequent trains and new lines, the day-to-day cost increases by having more trains to run and track to maintain, balancing out the increased revenue from the additional passengers who will travel. There is then also the initial cost of the new stock and infrastructure. If anything, the subsidy should go up to pay off this initial debt, but this shouldn't be seen as a bad thing when the transport system is improved and is being well used.

gimmea50anyday said:
I didnt say nationalised was brilliant, it had its faults aswell as the bits it did well, thats not in dispute. however you do have to consider what NS, SNCF and DB are all doing right if between they are running a significant chunk of our "privatised" railways
You shouldn't use SNCF as a comparison if you support nationalisation, their rural services are in a state not dissimilar from BR's "managed decline" years.

It should also be noted that the UK franchises run by DB etc are not going to be run by the same management teams who run the railways in other countries. I think how the industry plays out has a lot more to do with having enough money and good leadership than who owns it.
 

HowardGWR

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UKIP are saying predictibably 'EU wont let you do that Jeremy'. That of course is incorrect. He is talking about the franchises and (as was the case with East Coast) as long as the organisations are kept separate, - yes he can!
 

Haydn1971

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I just can't see it happening because Labour won't win with Corbyn as leader.


According to the media controlled by the conservative bias owners ! I'm hearing countless people waking up to politics in recent months, all because Corbyn "appears" to them to be a man who has morality and stands by his principles... Don't believe the hype...
 

Railsigns

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Labour can say what they want at the moment because it'll never happen. I cannot see them winning a general election under Corbyn.

A few weeks ago, people were saying he stood no chance of becoming Labour leader.
 

CyrusWuff

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Corbyn can say what he likes. The only franchise due for renewal in the short term following the next Election will be Chiltern.
 

D841 Roebuck

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Whilst I'd prefer renationalisation, the current TOCs aren't the worst example of privatised industry ripping off the public.

I'd personally put power generation, water supply and probably telecommunications well ahead of them in the list of priorities for renationalisation.
 

Dave1987

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Privatisation always leads to the same thing. Trying to get as much profit as possible and trying to increase dividends every year.
This causes rising prices and minimal investment.

Nationalisation should lead to trying to keep voters happy instead, so lower profits and fares instead.
Don't forget other countries' national TOCs are making money overseas, why can't New BR?

So why have National Express just won franchises in Germany the supposed Holy Grail of a nationalised system?

What is Labour now going to say to Chiltern that has invested huge amounts into the its line?
 

Simon11

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Whilst I'd prefer renationalisation, the current TOCs aren't the worst example of privatised industry ripping off the public.

I'd personally put power generation, water supply and probably telecommunications well ahead of them in the list of priorities for renationalisation.

Agreed- having a quick look at different sources:

Stagecoach half year to Dec 2014: 2.2%

Average margins are 2.9%

As of Feb 2015: Chiltern, East Coast, Abellio Greater London, South-eastern and London Midland were making losses of between £1m and £8m

Personally, if I owned a transport owning group, I would invest in my bank and save all that hassle!


Sources:
http://www.stagecoach.com/media/insight-features/the-facts-about-rail-fares.aspx
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/b...ed-as-operators-margins-decline-10047948.html
 
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Dave1987

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Whilst I'd prefer renationalisation, the current TOCs aren't the worst example of privatised industry ripping off the public.

I'd personally put power generation, water supply and probably telecommunications well ahead of them in the list of priorities for renationalisation.

You seem to be forgetting that virtually all the power station renewals in this country are being financed by private companies.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
People on here are also forgetting that Labour now want HS2 to be scrapped, and we all know how crucial that project is.
 

Simon11

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What is Labour now going to say to Chiltern that has invested huge amounts into the its line?

Chiltern haven't invested huge amounts, maybe in Chiltern's staff time & cost as NR has made the investment-

"Network Rail will pay for the infrastructure improvements, recovering the cost through a facility charge to the train operator paid over the next 30 years. As a result, the final seven and a half years of Chiltern Railways’ 20-year franchise, which was dependent on investment, has now been confirmed. Chiltern is owned by the German state rail operator, Deutsche Bahn.

The project, known as Evergreen 3, was first proposed in detail last autumn and the funding is now in place."

http://www.railpro.co.uk/news/business-news/chiltern-to-make-259m-investment-for-oxford-link
 
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